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Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific

 
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Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/15/2006 12:01:18 AM   
GKar


Posts: 617
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline 		This may be bold to ask for, but what do you strive to do in the first few turns of a Japanese surprise attack in the Pacific? There are so many targets and so many limitations, namely the puny Japanese production capability and - too many fronts everywhere, to make it short.

So what are the most important preparations? What should be done with the fleets? What are the key fields of research? I think I made my share of blunders with supplies and fleet movements already, I'd be grateful for a few hints.

I enjoy playing the Japanese, but it seems like the most difficult part of the game.
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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/15/2006 12:22:01 AM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
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quote:

I enjoy playing the Japanese, but it seems like the most difficult part of the game.

Yes, indeed.....me too
I've had great success teching up CAGs (not just TORP, also EV and AA as well as ASW, it's relatively cheap to do if you keep to just 5 CAGs!) and even CV movement and EV for CVs. Always keep your carrier groups by an island loaded with supply for full fleet movement and you can almost forget about surface naval forces unless shore bombardment is in order, once the CAGs are "kinged" they (LFs, HFs) are irrelevant anyway. Typically a WA player will be too busy (with the battle of the Atlantic/ME) to keep pace with your tech, make sure to cut off easy WA steals by increasing security after GE has stolen the full 5 amphib and 2 speed for fighters. It all boils down to supply in the end, building 7+ TFs is also great for the DEI snag but w/o supply to repair the infrastructure, all is for naught. To keep things simple I reccommend (for an outstanding Japanese play) heavy emphasis on CAGs tech, followed closely by supply, then by TFs, then by MILs to keep the Chinese at bay. In a recent game (A loss BTW to Döbeln, an outstanding player) I was actually able to face down the force in SW USA with CAGs alone, fighter opposition notwithstanding, with the loss of his entire strike force, this buys time for Japan at the end (if you do not AV). So:
Tech up the Cags, get 80+ supply ready for turn one, leave China alone after your CAGs have gone vet/elite and build TFs for a sweep of ManilaI/DEI on turn 1, if the D player is competent, all will go your way, never forget to start (yes I am about to say this) factory builds for Nihon about 2 turns before turn 1 of the all-out attack, you will need the x3 FM to hit AV easily........take Australia (always, always easier than India against a competent human opponent) and keep the enemy at bay with overwhelming carrier might! Make sure they ALWAYS have secure, land based supply to fuel them (this often means a grab of PH is in order.) Do not mess with Russia unless it is the tipping point and always keep your nose out of a Chinese land war....
Best of luck!


*edit* spelling mistake "actutally" good God, I have been overseas for too long!

< Message edited by christian brown -- 11/15/2006 12:49:55 AM >

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/16/2006 12:45:02 PM   
GKar


Posts: 617
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for your hints, I knew and used some of them already but others were new to me.

In case other readers would like to comment or share their "Japan conquers the world" strategies, go ahead!

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/16/2006 9:41:05 PM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Hey GKar, just curious: which parts were new?  Finding out about the overwhelmng power of carrier air groups did not dawn on me until recently.......the fuel cost certainly is tough to bear running them all over but is ultimately worth the "shock and awe" factor.....I have seen WA players sit on their hands for turns at a time after their first encounter with them (out of pure psychological "fear factor"?)
Of course, this has the tendency of creating a truly "Germany First" strategy which in the long run can be more damaging and let's face it, after D is gone and the WA has the bomb, and Russia comes in, it's all over anyway.....
Just for the record, the (x1 max) factory build is only if the Russians really are at the tipping point, otherwise you can't count on the RPs to feed it, though Australia is is rather rich in this respect as well......

Also, positioning your LFs right across from the TF chain to Australia can be another psych blowfor turn one, but is also costly in supply ultimately, the truth is that I am still looking for a good balance, with their production, not everything can be done at once......


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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/16/2006 9:51:17 PM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Just keep you carriers away from any land-based fighters. I'll happily trade out my 2 point fighters for elite CAGs any day!  And unless you are being extraordinarily successful as Japan, its unlikely that your CAGs AtA and EV stats will be matching (much less exceeding) the same stats on WAllied fighters.



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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/16/2006 10:27:57 PM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Ah.....but there you are quite wrong, sir, look carefully at the spending limits, effect of elite/vets and the low ceilings for attaining 7EV and 7 AA for CAGs at x5 vs WA fighters at x10+......really!  Quite shocking actually....

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/16/2006 10:28:52 PM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Clearly, I'm talking about a historical timeline.....Fall 1941 at latest.....

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/17/2006 2:47:18 AM   
GKar


Posts: 617
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: christian brown

Hey GKar, just curious: which parts were new?

I was handicapped a little in my first try by not having enough supplies at the right spot, both for fleets and repairs. I thought about teching the CAGs, but it never occurred to me to invest in the carriers too. Same for building factories - a good idea under the right circumstances.

In general, I simply lack experience with the Japs. And right now I don't have that much time at my hands to try things out to the bottom, I prefer to answer my PBEMs whenever possible.

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/17/2006 8:58:13 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Ehh, the fact remains that Fighters are dirt-cheap compared to CAGs and air to air combat tends to be mutual annihilation (unless there is a huge disparity of tech). Perhaps your Japan play is far superior to mine, but I just dont see Japan having the econ to tech up those CAGs that much and still have enough supplies to do what she has to do. And then on top of that having the econ to trade out 4-cost CAGs for 2-cost Fighters? I just dont see it.

Note that the US isnt likely to even HAVE Fighters in the Pacific until mid-42 at the earliest. So by that time, I'm fairly sure that their tech levels will equaled or surpassed Japan's CAG levels.

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/17/2006 2:59:41 PM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		What I mean is that even at 6/6 plus 5 or 6 torp, an elite/vet CAG can attack a place such as SW USA and kill everything there just after PH, even if there are a WA fighter or 2 present and even if they are at 7/7.  Even, if you do take a damaged CAG or even a total loss, sinking x2 CVs plus CAGs and other surface forces it fully worth it.  As for the supply (like I said before, I'm still toying with the balance) issue, I tend not to build big land forces, stripping the islands instead, build a few ARTs and MILs to take Manila, etc and spent the rest on CAG tech, supply and TFs.  This super aggressive and rather superficial approach has worked well for me but there are clearly several inherent dangers: not bombing Chinese factories to ruins is a perfect example, my opponents can tell you that has been a big problem of mine: losing territories in coastal China (+/- 1943) due to well manned and supplied Chinese armies.  Always, always tradeoffs.  But if you like spectacular victories, CAGs are the way to go for Japan (they provide, excuse my lack of better word choice: "breakthrough" potential, they can basically make almost anything happen for you in one specific place per turn), you just have to accept the fact that you'll be buying 35+ supplies a turn, which is tough as Japan.

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"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
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Post #: 10
RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/17/2006 3:23:07 PM   
dobeln

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 3/28/2005
Status: offline 		Having been on the recieving end of a "CB Carrier Special" (TM), a few comments:

1: It hurts a lot. Especially so if (as was the case in our game) Germany is waging an all-out sub offensive against the WA.

2: It hurts extra much if it catches you by surprise and if you haven't had time to tech up your air forces properly, as was the case in my game against CB. Also, Pearl Harbor II in Los Angeles didn't help - after destroying both my CV:s there, he wiped out *5* (IIRC) fighters positioned there, without loss. Luckily, I had been generous with the CV builds, and so could recover in time to win in the Pacific in early 46. Still, was a very close call,  and if  CB had evacuated China and turtled in the home islands, I could probably have pulled off a draw at best - teching up A-bomb technology was never really an option due to heavy German anti-WA pressure.

3: It's not an overpowered strategy, IMO. It works well only when Germany puts a lot of pressure on the WA, making their teching up lag Japanese tech. And that tends to take some of the oomph out of the assault on the Soviet Union - especially so as the Japanese have to limit their involvement in the Soviet far east to some degree. This was why I won the game in question - despite using the dreaded "Grab the Caucasus via Turkey"-gambit, I beat back the attack and pushed back all the way to Berlin.

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/17/2006 4:10:48 PM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dobeln

wiped out *5* (IIRC) fighters positioned there, without loss.


Something to consider, Uncle_Joe, when you are vet/elite, mighty strange things can happen.

He still won the game of course (better player, darnit) but I will definitely say this slowed him down a lot, Japan was almost untouched by the WA for a full year after this
quote:

Pearl Harbor II in Los Angeles
event and made it to 23 or 24 production.


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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/17/2006 8:48:43 PM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
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quote:

Something to consider, Uncle_Joe, when you are vet/elite, mighty strange things can happen.


I guess I still have my WaW paranoia of the UK being invaded early on so a priority for me is to tech up Fighters so as to not let Germany get air superiority over the UK. That means that the US Fighters are pretty teched up as well. I cant imagine losing 5 Fighters without inflicting loss on the attacking CAGs and if the fighters hit even 2, I would consider it a success.

I admit that a surprise attack on the US WC would probably take me be surprise too, but since I play Japan a lot, I probably tend to make a larger effort with the WAllies in the Pacific as well. The artificial timetable makes a total 'Germany first' strategy not viable IMO since you still have to take Japan out in the same time.

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/18/2006 12:16:15 AM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Having had an opportunity to think this over, it would appear too easy to achieve high EV and AA ratings, perhaps a raise in the world standard is in order for this, it pretty much approaches the "super unit" description, but I am not sure about this 100% either, I still lost the game referred to above and some of the blame must ultimately lie with the CAG tech spending............comments? 

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"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
~ Thomas Jefferson

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/18/2006 1:06:13 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		We actually raised the WS for CAGs some time in the beta because CAGs were far too vulnerable to land-based air. They cost twice as much as a Fighter and cant be teched up any higher in terms of AtA capability. The problem with the WS system is that is very 'all or nothing'. You cant provide a gradual increase in costs with it...its a HUGE increase once you start to exceed the WS.

The thing with the 'super units' in WaW was that there were a few that could increase their defense up so high that they couldnt reasonably be hit (units with Armor or a 4 Dur were the easiest to abuse). Suppression, the early limits on research, and the revised World Standards all mitigate against the chance of a 'super unit' such that existed in WaW.

What you are probably seeing is the effect of Elite vs non-Elite. In standard battle, that can be a large swing. If you outnumber the Elites though, they will drop pretty quickly. I think it pretty accurately models the Pacific in the beginning of the war. Allied planes and pilots were no match for the Japanese. Once the Japanese lost the cream of their air corps at Midway, they never really recovered. If, as a player, you DONT lose your CAGs in an op like Midway, then you'll have a pretty hefty advantage over historical Japan.

Plus, we are playing with hindsight and with different goals in mind. That affects planning quite a bit and leads to situations that would not likely have occured in reality.

But in the end, I dont think Japanese CAGs are in any danger of becoming 'super units'. They are simply too expensive compared to Fighters which can just as easily knock them out. Japan simply doesnt have the econ to be teching them up and rebuilding them when lost while trying to keep up with her other needs. Trying to do so will likely results in severe shortages elsewhere (ie lack of supplies or troops for China/India or ASW assets etc etc).

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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/18/2006 1:16:31 AM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the concise commentary, I think you are right, they are indeed very powerful but also come at great cost (I neglected other important areas in order to achieve these results with them.)  Still love 'em and swear by them though, I'm doing it again in ongoing games.....shush!


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"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
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RE: Japanese strategy for an attack in the Pacific - 11/27/2006 6:58:25 AM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Here is what I've been talking about, this is 1945 but as you can see, the CAGs have been superior to WA fighters for quite some time...




Attachment (1)

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"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
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