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How to set up a strike package?

 
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How to set up a strike package? - 11/16/2006 11:30:51 PM   
akm

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline 		Consider the following situation:

You want to strike a hostile SAM site. For this purpose you would like to set up a strike package consisting of, let's say, 4 different flights:
flight 1: ground strike (for instance 4 x F16 with LGBs)
flight 2: escort (for instance 4 x F15C with AIM-120)
flight 3: jamming (for instance 2 x Prowler with jamming pods)
flight 4: SEAD (for instance 2 x F16 with HARM)

How can you do this in H3 ANW in the most elegant way? "Elegant" in this context means:
- The jamming planes stay in safe distance from the SAM site but nevertheless effectively jam the SAM site during the entire mission
- The sead planes arrive just before the ground strike planes and take out or effectively suppress the SAM site so that it is safe for the strike flight to attack the SAM site
- The escort planes take care of all other planes in the package and protect them from hostile AA-missiles.

The point is: how can I coordinate all those flights, so that they are all sychronized as described above? Can I do this by means of H3 missions/H3 AI? Or do I have to calculate everything myself, which (by the way) I consider impossible.

And by the way: how does jamming really work in H3 ANW? Can I jam in a specific direction? Can I jam a specific target?

Tricky questions ... but maybe somebody can help.

< Message edited by akm -- 11/16/2006 11:37:55 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 12:10:23 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		My personal solution would be to always keep the strike under manual control. I never use the Mission Editor because then the AI would decide when and where to fire, especially in ANW. In fact, with ANW-controlled missions, your strike/escort/elements might all be scattered on their approach to the target since they could conceivably make their ingress at all different throttle settings.

That having been said, I would:

1) Launch all elements individually
2) Plot individual paths for the various strike group elements to the target
3) Change the speed of the air groups to match so that they arrive in the order I like and are coordinated. There were some reported problems with groups taking on different air speeds, but I think that this has been worked out in ANW.
4) Move the elements apart so that they are in a loose formation that I like (Escorts about 20nm out, SEAD 10nm ahead of the strikers, Jammers in front of SEAD. (Note, the separation depends on the target defences, too. If I do it differently if I going up against Patriot vs. SA-6 SAMs)
5) If I have OECM jammers, I try to keep them out front as far as possible on the Ingress so as to mask the entire group.
6) Once they arrive, I hold the Jammers out of SAM range in order to degrade the defenses without risk of their loss.

Here are some good descriptions of ECM usage:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1281231

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1281397

Jamming is pretty generic in H3. You cannot jam a specific direction or a specific target/bandwidth.






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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 2:10:57 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Akm,

Here's a Time on Target Planner Greg Smith put together in excel some time ago and posted to the HHQ. Its handy and helps with time on target calculations.

Hope this helps






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Post #: 3
RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 11:28:43 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		And at:

Harpoon TOT Strike Planner spreadsheets in Excel & Lotus format




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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 9:21:40 PM   
SIRIUS01

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2006
Status: offline 		Hi this maybe dated (it is same as my database) but gives a good visual on the make up of a strike in Vietnam


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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 9:43:09 PM   
akm

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks everybody for their contribution to this thread !!

Well, I'm afraid setting up my little strike package is getting overwhelmingly complex ;-) ... so much micromanagement ...
Anyway, I will give the Excel sheet a try and attempt to mimic the Vietnam strike map. Let's see how many of my planes will survive my planning.

P.S.: don't you think that H3 NAW has still room for improvement regarding electronic warfare? Jamming seems indeed to be very generic, no realistic way to simulate a stand-off jamming plane. If you consider the importance of EW nowadays (and already in the Vietnam era) this is a serious drawback of H3 NAW and I wonder how the military using H3 NAW professional is thinking about that. And if we are talking about shortcomings of a unique and outstanding wargame: how about mine warfare? how about weapon waypoints? Just some humble thoughts ...

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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 10:08:55 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 417
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		You don't have to micro manage, you can set up strike packages just using the mission editor. The timing of those is the awkward part. Many of those items you'd like to see are on most peoples wish list. But Harpoon has a habit of delivering those over time. I'm often surprised by just how much we already have in game.

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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 10:11:57 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: akm

P.S.: don't you think that H3 NAW has still room for improvement regarding electronic warfare? Jamming seems indeed to be very generic, no realistic way to simulate a stand-off jamming plane. If you consider the importance of EW nowadays (and already in the Vietnam era) this is a serious drawback of H3 NAW and I wonder how the military using H3 NAW professional is thinking about that. And if we are talking about shortcomings of a unique and outstanding wargame: how about mine warfare? how about weapon waypoints? Just some humble thoughts ...


ANW does allow for a fair amount of complexity in the sensor modelling, IMO. For example, your jammers can be customized in the various third-party Databases to only jam certain frequencies. You, as a player, probably just don't notice this.

Yes, there is certainly a lack of player control over ECM. i.e. you either turn on ALL your radar/ECM systems or leave them ALL off, but the ECM effort does seem to work effectively. I just played an MP game with Brandon, Suomenlinna with the PlayersDB. My Hornets shot the Fulcrums to bits because Brandon failed to support them with jammers. I could clearly and easily identify my targets. I bet he won't be making that mistake, again!

Now, mine warfare and weapons waypoints, according to AGSI, won't be making an appearance in H3 for a little while. However, both the third-party databases, PlayersDB and the DB2k, have tried to model mine warfare in their own specialized ways. You can give them a try to see if either of them are satisfactory. I know that we did the best we could with the PlayersDB and it is not perfect, but we think that it does okay.




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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/17/2006 10:16:19 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Take the time to write down a list of the fundamentals that Harpoon already has nailed down quite good and compare it with the "to-do" list. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised


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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/19/2006 2:29:46 PM   
jkruny

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/14/2006
Status: offline 		hey akm,

Try this to setup your strike without micromanaging:

1)prowlers assigned to a support mission with ecm on, two ref pts perpendicular to the attack axis about ten miles apart and just byond atticipated SAM range, 1/3 rule checked. Set launch delay to 0 minutes.

2)2 aaw patrol zones with two planes assigned to each, 1/3 rule checked, each zone with two ref pts along the attack axis, and placed at each end of the prowler path. Set launch delay to 0 minutes.

3)(2)xF16/Harm for the SEAD mission, launch delay set to 5 minutes.

4)(4)xF16/LGB for the strike mission, launch delay set to 10 minutes.

Because H3 launches single a/c very quickly, your CAP and Jamming a/c will get on station slightly before the SEAD package, anf the strike package will follow the SEAD package at about 10 min spacing since the SEAD group is two a/c and the strike group is four.

Try this, see if it's what you're looking for. Personally I would do a lot of micro-managing here if the scene was not real complicated.

Good Luck.




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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/19/2006 9:56:45 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jkruny

Try this to setup your strike without micromanaging:

<< snip >>

2)2 aaw patrol zones with two planes assigned to each, 1/3 rule checked, each zone with two ref pts along the attack axis, and placed at each end of the prowler path. Set launch delay to 0 minutes.


This isn't a criticism of how someone else wants to play the game or manage strikes, but just be aware that once planes are assigned to the Mission Editor, they are, in fact, pretty much turning over control to the AI. The AI will determine the altitude of approach and EmCon for your strike groups.

A potential problem with allocating strike/escort missions to the AI is that the AI may turn on the radar for the escorts and reveal your presence to the enemy. Also, some missions may order the planes to make their ingress at high altitude. If you were planning to sneak in under the radar horizon and only climb when you are near the target, your surprise attack may be spoiled.

There's lots of ways to approach the problem. That's the beauty of a game; you get to try them all!




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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 3:37:18 AM   
jkruny

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/14/2006
Status: offline 		Hermann,

Please do me a favor, in the future when replying to a post with no critisism intended, make that post of a general nature. There was no reason for you to include a quote from my previous post to make your point.

And in fact if you are going to critisize a post, make sure that you include the entire post, and not just the portion you want to paraphrase.





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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 3:47:33 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		It's an explanation of how the game runs and not a criticism of how any particular player decides to use the Mission editor.

There is every reason to quote your description as you have suggested a specific course of action.  This is proper conduct and accurate.  If you take offense to it, then you will take offense where none is offered.  I certainly will not be restricting myself to someone else's editorial standards.


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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 4:42:06 AM   
jkruny

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/14/2006
Status: offline 		Hermann,

akm asked:

quote:

The point is: how can I coordinate all those flights, so that they are all sychronized as described above? Can I do this by means of H3 missions/H3 AI? Or do I have to calculate everything myself, which (by the way) I consider impossible.


You answered:

quote:

My personal solution would be to always keep the strike under manual control. I never use the Mission Editor because then the AI would decide when and where to fire, especially in ANW. In fact, with ANW-controlled missions, your strike/escort/elements might all be scattered on their approach to the target since they could conceivably make their ingress at all different throttle settings.


To which he replied:

quote:

Well, I'm afraid setting up my little strike package is getting overwhelmingly complex ;-) ... so much micromanagement ...
Anyway, I will give the Excel sheet a try and attempt to mimic the Vietnam strike map. Let's see how many of my planes will survive my planning.


And from there I did indeed give him an alternative to micromanaging the engagement, with a caveat that I would not personally choose that option.

Having already expressed your preferred options, why do you feel the need to reply at all to a suggestion directed at akm?

Part of the fun of Harpoon is to try different things, and some of them may not work so well, but it is a learning process. And in that process many of us have found very good ways to do certain tasks.

As to you following anyone's editorial guidelines, there are several bazillion examples on this forum alone that clearly show your proclivity to say whatever you wish.



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Post #: 14
RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 5:07:35 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		Additional data was added because many new players do not seem to understand units on missions are, in essence, ceding control to the AI.

As stated,

quote:

be aware that once planes are assigned to the Mission Editor, they are, in fact, pretty much turning over control to the AI. The AI will determine the altitude of approach and EmCon for your strike groups.


And I shall continue to express opinions in any manner as I see fit so long as they do not contravene the forum guidelines as set out by Matrix policy.

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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 8:39:07 AM   
FransKoenz


Posts: 255
Joined: 6/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:


And I shall continue to express opinions in any manner as I see fit so long as they do not contravene the forum guidelines as set out by Matrix policy.



Extra guidelines for discussions on [all] Forums:

Clause #1: Herman Hum is always right;

Clause #2: In cases that Herman Hum is wrong, Clause #1 is automatically relevant.

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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 11:19:49 AM   
hermanhum


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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/20/2006 6:59:36 PM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Herman

I had to have deleted 4 cross posts of this rant of yours.  I could understand it a little if someone else was having this problem or no one here was responding to you.  Herman you are welcomed here but posting the same issue all over the place is not allowed.  I am banning you for a week.

David Heath


< Message edited by David Heath -- 11/20/2006 7:03:44 PM >

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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/25/2006 12:41:16 AM   
KlubMarcus


Posts: 41
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline 		One thing you might try is creating the mission(s) in the Mission Editor. Launching the planes manually and fly them towards the target(s). Then assigning the planes once they are close to the target to their respective missions. That way you can make sure the planes are coming in low w/o turning on their radars until the last moment when the attack is underway.

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Post #: 19
RE: How to set up a strike package? - 11/25/2006 1:24:49 AM   
FransKoenz


Posts: 255
Joined: 6/3/2005
Status: offline 		This is my solution:

Just launch the aircraft and set course to the battlefield
Push "9" [unit modus], click on the enemy facility/ship/aircraft you want to attack, hit F6, choose the aircraft to assign to destroy mission, the aircraft automaticly splits from its formation to attack the object.

Hope this will help

[Thank god that we do not have an echo now, mostly HH is giving the same answer, just to make sure that his name is there]

Cheers,
Taitennek


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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 12/6/2006 9:58:57 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Herman

I had to have deleted 4 cross posts of this rant of yours.  I could understand it a little if someone else was having this problem or no one here was responding to you.  Herman you are welcomed here but posting the same issue all over the place is not allowed.  I am banning you for a week.

David Heath



Uh-oh... David banned Herman... my dear... what have you done..!

I guess we can expect the first anti-Matrix / anti-David hate site to appear any day now!

We perma-banned this Herman Hum joker from the HarpoonHQ forum a long time ago (for obvious reasons), and Herman and those other three-four mental kokos have so far created no less than FIVE anti-HarpoonHQ hate sites, and registered two domains!

(Which is kinda flattering and sad at the same time... the kokos hate us / are envious enough to even spend money on hate sites...!)

David, the next thing Herman will do is dig into your real life, and find out about your family, your girlfriend, and your job. He hasn't got a life of his own (almost 40 years old, never had a real job, plays computer games 18+ hours a day), and therefore seem to have a weird obsession with other people's lives.

But it doesn't stop there. Herman will go on to copy (or clone, as he likes to call it) everything you have ever created. Scenarios, websites, even bug reports(!). Okay... so the guy is really sloppy and all of the 'cloned' material is in an awfully poor condition, highly disfunctional, and full of basic errors. But then, you wouldn't care if everything Herman ever created is a flawed 'clone' of your own work, right?

Then the DOS attacks on your site begins. Tons of fake users asking the same questions over and over in an attempt to saturate your community support effort, hacking attempts, hammering all new community members with e-mails, use the SZO rating system to give you a really bad rating... the list goes on and on and on...

We at the HarpoonHQ have gone through all of this. I guess you will have the pleasure of being Herman's next target...

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RE: How to set up a strike package? - 12/7/2006 9:36:12 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Ah well, we both know that my above post isn't nonsense... But for the sake of domestic peace and harmony I'll let it rest for now, no problem...

Lets return to what this is all about... Harpoon3...

Guys, stop by the HarpoonHQ for the latest Harpoon3 scenarios if you haven't already. Quinton released three new scenarios created with the 1965-1979 database last night:

Scenarios:

http://www.harpoonhq.com/harpoon3/scenarios_1960-79/

Details:

http://www.harpoonhq.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4147

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