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What ships are best used for what?

 
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What ships are best used for what? - 7/21/2006 1:51:23 AM   
SGT Swanson


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There are some threads out there that had discussions about what ships were best for different missions. Like certian classes of Brit DDs were better at ASW than others. Has anyone ever put this together on a spreadsheet or anything?

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SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/21/2006 6:11:31 PM   
Feinder


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USN
 
AK – You know what to do with them.  I don’t tend to use them for invasions.  They’re slow and units suffer from more disruption when using AKs.  Still they’re fine to transport LCUs and Eng units around the back-field.  Special note:  There are a few AKs that have a capacity of 4500, and can make 18 kts.  Watch for them, these guys are great.  They can accompany your faster AP invasion TFs and can carry the supplies for the landing.  Note that AKs are more efficient at carrying Tank and Gun LCUs than APs.  They’re also the only transports that can carry planes (crated).
 
AP – Troops!  Early ’42, hoard/guard/protect these guys.  They’re faster than AKs, and your LCUs will suffer slightly less disruption on landing when using APs.  The small APs (2000), are ok because they unload quickly.  But they’re also slower (usually only 14 kts after a few pts of sys damage), so I don’t like to use them for my initial invasion.  They often carry the second wave and extra supplies with the slower AKs.  The medium APs (4000) make the best assault transports.  They’re faster (around 17 kts) and unload faster than the the large APs (6000).  Large APs are fast enough, but they take a while to unload when attacking (if you’ve filled them up).  I usually use the large APs to move large LCUs (Inf Divs or Av Rgts) around quickly.
 
TK – Another “duh”.  Also, keep moving fuel to the Hawaiin Islands, to SoPac, to Oz.  Gas (and the location of KB) will become the primary limitation on your ops.  Keep a string of fuel dumps, so you can stay topped off, for when you’ve got get some where (or somewhere else!), fast!  Keep your fleets topped off!  HI can/will become a massive fuel depot once you build up the islands, you’ll –need- to store the gas, because your fleets will use a LOT.  And don’t’ forget to keep a handful of TKs available in LA and Karachi to occasionally load up with oil, and make the trip to Oz.
 

You have a LOT of extra shipping in India at the start of the game.  You can steal about 2/3 of it and send it the long way back to Pearl, where you’ll actually need the shipping.
 
AO – Replentishment.  You have plenty of TKs to transport fuel normally.  Keep your AOs as replentishment.  You’ll learn to love/rely on replentishment to sustain your operations.  Also note that you have two types of AO.  Fast ones (about 17 kts) and slow ones (about 14 kts).  The fast ones can trail behind your CVs for fleet replentishment.  The slower ones I tend to keep at various ports so they can run out and refuel nearby ships that are low/out of gas.
 
AE – Not much use for these guys before ’45.  But you can park them at a base, and resupply your TF from them, instead of drawing supplies from the base.  They will eventually accompany the fast AO TFs.
 
AR – I keep these guys in groups of 4 (max per port).  Keep them at your repair yards to make things go faster.  Also, have a few groups of 4 of these guys, scattered around some “just behind the line” bases, to sort of act as a MASH repair yard for ships damaged in combat.
 
AS/AD – I mostly put one of each of these with each group of 4x ARs.  They help destroyers and subs additionally (and can reload torps).
 
MLE – I not really one of those freaks that mines everything (to each his own).  But you can park these at Port(3), and mine the environs to your hearts content.
 
APD – I don’t use them much (there are only 6 to start).  But you can fast tran troops/supplies to a base slightly within enemy LBA range.  Or have fun with a  Raider Btn.
 
AV – Just call these guys “Patrol Tenders”.  If you park them at a base where you have PBYs and other planes, the PBYs will draw support form the AV, and not count against your air-support for your combat planes.
 
AVD – Same as AV.  I tend to put these guys closer to the front, because they can make 26 kts and skeedadle if they need to.  But don’t leave alone or in place for long, or an enemy surface TF –will- show up and kill you.
 
PT – Point defense for enemy bombardment TFs.  I tend to keep them in a “reasonable” group of 4 or 6.  But some folks mass 25 together, and they can put up stiff fight an enemy bombardment TF.
 
MSW – The “bird” class minesweepers I actually use them as MSWs.  They have good range, but their ASW is lacking.  The 1200 endurance MSWs (usually RCN actually) are fine for ASW for conoys, and you know, minesweeping.  You can use the RCN (1200) MSWs with your faster invasion TFs (they can make 16kts), but make sure you top them off before making the run in to land.  If your MSWs have to be refueled on the turn you land, you’ve just burned 250 ops points from transports that –should- be unloading troops.
 
DMS – Unlike MSWs, these guys can be included with your surface or bombardment TFs (and they are fast enough), so I mostly use them exclusively for that.  They have fairly short legs tho (only 3200 endurance), so you’ll need to top them off –before- you make your run into enemy waters.  These can also accompany your faster invasion TFs.
 
DM, ML – I usually group these guys together, to drop 1000 mines somewhere.  The Oglala (ML) is slower than the DMs.  But they have shorter legs, so it all comes out in the wash.
 
PC – Reliant et al, are kinda lacking.  They have a little ASW, so they get put in convoy duty.  A 2 ASW rating from Reliant in a convoy is almost the same as a 2 ASW rating from a DD, and it frees up the DD for fleet work.  I hate “wasting” DDs on convoys.
 
PG – Charleston is fun.  Her 6” guns and armor are a match for CL, and will certainly blow the snot out of an IJN DD.  She’s slow tho, but can be used as a raider if you keep her generally under your LBA umbrella.  The other PGs (Ashevills) have a limited utility in SC TF with Charleston, but I tend to turn them into PT boat tenders, because their AAA and ASW either are lacking or non-existant.  The RCN Swan class PGs are great for ASW work.
 
DD – With the exception of Flush Deckers, mostly a DD is a DD is a DD, main distinction is by it’s endurance.  Keep the ones with 6000+ endurance with your CVs.  The ones with 5000ish end, I keep with heavier SC TFs.  Using the longer legged 6000 guys with your CVs, means your CVs don’t have to refuel them as often. Having your CVs burn ops points to refuel DDs in the middle of a CV battle, will cost you a strike, and probably your CVs.  The Flush Deckers (4000 end) make great raiders and hunter ASW groups.  I like to package 4 of these guys, and run 6 in and out to shoot up transports at enemy perimeter bases.  Bear in mind that they are vulnerable to the 3” guns on enemy transports (and certainly escorts).  But constant ****s by a these “wolf packs” will compel IJN to tie up more escorts to those front-line convoys (then you can send in a CL, to shoot up the escorts).  But if you lose a few Flush Deckers, nobody will care.  Again, their ASW rating of 4 makes them good hunter killers early on (if you can find a sub stupid enough to squat in the same spot long enough to stomp him).  With only 4000 end tho, you need to keep them topped off.  But they can scoot around your trail of fuel depots in SoPac, just fine.
 
CL –  Pretty much, a CL is a CL is CL.  They’re a slightly cheaper version of AAA for your CVs.  After July ’42, their AAA is as good as your CAs.  I often use an older CL (Omaha) as either lone raiders, or flag for DD raider TFs.  The Omahas have weaker AAA, so they don’t do your CVs much good.  But they can add some punch to your raider SC TF (5” guns of DDs won’t penetrate CL armor, although torps are of course nasty).  As raiders, you can sprint in and out at 6 hexes each way, which will usually avoid retribution by LBA.  Again, I’m more likely to risk the Omahas as raiders.
 
CA –  Pretty much, a CA is a CA is CA.  These will be your heavy units in 1942, because most of your BBs will be in the shop.  They’re fast enough to accompany your CVs (and should).  If an enemy CL has intercepted your DD/CL raiders, you can trump him by putting in a CA with your SC group.  But avoid CA vs. CA, because IJN CAs are better than yours.  Mostly, these guys stay as AAA for my CVs.
 
BB – Not much use for these (slow) guys in ’42 (if they’re not already crippled in port).  They’re too slow to put your CVs, and their AAA is about the same as CAs, so why slow down?  Also a little dangerous to put them in bombardment TFs, because their slow speed exposes them to enemy LBA for too long.  The faster BBs (NoCal and SoDaks), are fine.  Good AAA, and fast enough to accompany your CVs (although you lose 2 hexes of speed at full).  And fine service in bombardment TFs.  Note that if an enemy bombardment TF is in the area, and I happen to have slow BBs around, I might be tempted to move them in for point defense.  IJN CAs will ruin your day tho, so I don’t usually risk BBs in ’42.
 
CVE – The VR CVEs, keep them between a base with 20k supplies and your CVs, and they’ll keep you stocked with aircraft.  Regarding Long Island and the other offensive capable CVEs… I actually normally use them aircraft transport.  My CVs get stuck with this duty early on, but using Long Island to ferry Wilcats and P-39s past the “hump” between Palmyra and SoPac is useful.  You should try to have built up SoPac so that you plane can transfer around with LI.  But the ‘Cats and P-39s have shorter range, and need to ride LI.  You can use LI and others offensively.  I don’t like putting them with my fleet CVs, it slows them down too much.  Sometimes put LI with Hermes or other slower carriers.  If offensive, I put a sqn of USMC SBDs on her, for a few extra bombs.  The USMC Wildcats don’t have the exp to actually make a difference if you’re in a CV battle, but the USMC SBDs might actually land a bomb.  Some folks use her in a historical role as ASW platform, but I haven’t found her to be all that effective (SBDs will only have a range of 2, and frankly, she’s as much a tempting target for IJN subs).
 
CV – They carry planes that have bombs.  You know what to do.  They can make strikes on Japanese perimeter in 1942.  But I’d genrally stay away from KB.  If KB is split up, you can maybe engage, but if KB is around (or worse mega-KB), it’s usually best to keep your distance (or at least stay near a base with B-17s).  Note you can also use them early on as aircraft transports.  You can ferry an extra USMC sqdn on them, without shutting down flight ops.  I don’t usually use USMC planes on my CVs offensively (a battle with orphan’d CVs planes landing on your already full deck, will shut down ops).  But if you do add a USMC sqdn offensively, I again recommend the SBDs or Avengers, because the USMC Wildcats aren’t going to buy you that much on CAP.  You could put the USMC Wildcats on 0-CAP all escort, and they’ll provide a few extra bullet sponges for your bombers.  But I personally would simply prefer the extra planes be USMC bombers in the first place.

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/21/2006 6:46:01 PM   
niceguy2005


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Excellent post Feinder

For the most part I agree with everything you said. I would add a couple of things though.

AP - While I think the 4000 AP are the best general assualt transports, I like the 2000 AP ones for smaller invasion, in paticular if I am going in under enemy air space. In those cases I want the transports unloaded and steaming away from the beachhead within 24 hours.

AE - You can use these guys to haul supply (only 2000 points worth) to bases. Basically, I will sometimes use them to ship supplies on short runs, like PH to Johnston IS, or Seattle to Sitka. It frees up AKs for such duty.

AVD - While I use them a lot as forward based tenders, they also can be used as corsairs, pulling scout duty, or escort duty for rearward convoys. I often use them to escort convoys between Seattle and Alaska.

DMS - In the early days of the war these are basically lighter duty escorts. I might put 2 of them in a convoy with a couple of DDs

DM - Good for making long haul minelaying runs if you have refueling bases in between.

CL - In addtion to Feinders comments these make good recon ships. The allies have a noticiable lack of good recon assets, in paticular at the start of the war. There are many areas of wide open ocean where enemy carriers can hide, or worse yet flank you and get into your shipping lanes. Allied patrol aircraft won't always catch them. You can use the spotter aircraft on the CLs to augment your Nav Search. If you can group your PBY, with sub pickets and a few well placed CLs you can do a pretty good job of picking up anything that wants to sneak through.

I have used CLs many times in this role and while they sometimes do get caught and sunk, they get away far more times then they are attacked. Half the time they aren't even detected. You can have them operate alone, with DD escort or group 2 together to enhance the search. Note however that the larger the TF the better the chance that it will be spotted and attacked.

BB - The pre-war battlewagons have limited use, however, they can be a formittable weapon for point defense and anti-invasion. If I have any undamaged I will send them off to help protect whatever base I think is most likely to be attacked. Speed isn't as much an issue since it is basically on patrol at the base. This frees up CAs for other more important duties. Note however that I don't really play for points as much as I do for land, so losing a BB here or there doesn't really bother me if it slows down the enemy. Later these BBs become great floating artillery platforms.

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 7:25:26 AM   
rockmedic109

 

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Great post by Feinder.  Hit nearly every point.

If I have a high speed {15+ kts} AK, I will use them for long distance air group transports.  Cuts quite a bit of time from transporting a unit from West Coast to Southeast Asia.  Once the bombers can make the SF-Australia run without prohibitive op losses, they can make quick runs between Perth and India for the last leg of the route.  Fighters will still need them, however.

I will sometimes use an AS to replenish subs at a forward base.  Cuts sub transit times considerably, but makes them both vulnerable.

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 5:57:10 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Fleet Destroyers - USN

Mahan Class - Good AA and ASW 12 Torps and gets radar in the 4/42 you et a lot of these good DD's I use them in Surface and Air Combat TF - Gets 40mm Bofors and the better SG radar in the 10/42 upgrade cycle which boosts AA a lot

Farragut Class - Also good AA but less duarable than average and only 8 Torps also gets radar in early upgrade and the better SG radar in the 10/42. Gets 40mm Bofors in the 10/42 upgrade cycle which boosts AA a lot

Bagley Class - Also good AA gets 16 Torps also gets radar in early upgrade and the better SG radar in the 10/42. Gets 40mm Bofors in the 10/42 upgrade cycle which boosts AA a lot - I tend to use isn Surface TF's

Sims Class - Also good AA if not as good as the others gets 8 Torps and is one of very few USN DD's that arrive with Radar (inferior SC but radar is radar) gets the better SG radar and gets 40mm Bofors in the 10/42 upgrade cycle which boosts AA a lot - I tend to use isn Surface TF's. Most Durable USN DD's until Fletchers arrive but also weakest in ASW role

Benham Class/Gridley/McCall Class - Virtually Identical except Benhams arrive with SC Radar and Gridley/McCall get it in 4/42 upgrade and GMcC get 16 torps to the Benhams 8 both have a good 10/42 upgrade as well 40mm and SG Radar.

Bristol Class- Best USN AA DD's until Fletchers good Radar in 10/42 and decent endurance you dont get many of them though.

Benson Class - With the Bristol class best ASW DD's in USN service. Again few in numbers. Decent Torpedo battery and at start SC radar makes them deadly in ASW or Surface role

Porter Class - My Personal Favourive 8 x 5" Gun top durability of all DD's and 8 Torps makes the Porter class dangerous opponents in surface action but no radar until 4/42 cycle and few in numbers

Fleet Destroyers - RAN/RN/Dutch

Electra Class - Most numerous RN DD's no radar until 1/43 Upgrade top knotch ASW ships weak in surface combat and in AA capacity.

J Class - Durable, tough DD's with 8 x 4" guns and top radar from start. With high XP of RN units probably the most dangerous Allied DD class in surface action at start. 1/43 upgrade improves AA and increases radar coverage by giving 279 radar

P Class - 6 x 4" guns and starting radar these are tough - Waek in AA and upgrade in 12/42 doesnt add much

Arunta - Make Believe Tribals 6 x 4.7" decent AA for RN Destroyers and starting radar good durability solid performers - weak ASW for RN DD's - Basically a RAN version of the Tribal class DD's

Convoy Escort Destroyers

Flush Deckers - Most numerous Allied DD 12 torps poor endurance basically the coffins of the sea expendable though so good raiders.

S Class Class - Weak only RN class not worth keeping poor in all respects only really fit for ASW duty

Vampire - Also weak but only really fit for convoy escort duty - Decent ASW.


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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 10:40:03 PM   
SGT Swanson


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Andy Mac posted what I was really looking for.  But, I do thank you all for your contributions.

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SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 11:46:16 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Sgt Swanson you may find this usefull its my snapshot analysis of allied Cruisers post the 4/42 cycle but pre the 10/42

You can see why the Brooklyns are so good the only weakness is the lack of Torps

RN Leanders should be saved if possible (Perth is basically an RAN Leander) Good all round CL's

Of the starting USN CA's the New Orleans class is head and shoulders better than the rest in Armour

Hope this helps remember this is a snapshot prior to the early 42 upgrades the USN CA's are a LOT weaker than on this spreadsheet






Attachment (1)

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 11:46:51 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Oops that was the DD SSHeet






Attachment (1)

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 11:50:39 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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You forgot the Flying Frenchman, Andy.

EDIT: Nevermind.

< Message edited by Onime No Kyo -- 7/22/2006 11:51:02 PM >


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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 11:56:53 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Also don't forget

the USN Radar in Cruisers and Destroyers in the 4/42 cycle is the inferior SC radar (24k Str 50)

The RN Ships with Radar get the Type 271 which is basically the same ans the SG Radar the USN Gets in 10/42. (28k, Str 75)

The RN Gets the far superior Type 279 Radar (250k, Str 70) in its later upgrades whereas the USN seems to concentrate its better radar into Carriers only (But when they get it the CSP-1 is excellent 400k Str 80).


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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/22/2006 11:58:51 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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p.s. the RN Ships have a huge force multiplier because they are all good XP - pity about the limited selection of Admirals really !!!

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/23/2006 11:00:39 AM   
SGT Swanson


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Hey Andy, can you Email those to me?

You wouldn't have ones for the IJN, would you?

sgt.swanson@leswanson.org

_____________________________

SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/24/2006 1:28:26 PM   
SGT Swanson


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@Andy Mac  I've set up the IJN ones in the file you sent me.  I have one question though.  How did you come up with the AA value?  In the Database Editor the value is different than if you look at it in the game.

For Example: The Bagley Class DDs (US) have an AA value of 216 in the Editor (Wpn 3 is 3 x 20mm Oerlikon AA Gun with 36 Ammo.  Wpn 4 is the same.) but, in the game it has the same mounts as having 50 ammo for a Total = 200.

That's how you did the calculations for the Torps and ASW.  So, I figured that was the way to do it for AA as well.

If the calculation is different, plz let me know, so I can fix mine.

_____________________________

SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/24/2006 1:45:33 PM   
VSWG


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Add the weapons effect value of all AA and DP Gun, and divide the sum by 2.

A Bagley Class DD (4/42) has 6x "20mm Oerlikon AA Gun" and 4x "5in/38 Mk 12 Gun" (DP weapon).

effect of the 20mm Oerlikon AA Gun: 15
effect of the 5in/38 Mk 12 Gun: 55

Sum: 310

Divide by 2: 155

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/24/2006 1:47:27 PM   
VSWG


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ASW: just add the number of all ASW devices. Ammo etc. is not a factor.

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/24/2006 1:53:25 PM   
SGT Swanson


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Ok, thx

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SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 7/24/2006 2:41:33 PM   
SGT Swanson


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Here is the completed sheet.  Now includes the IJN.  Thanks Andy Mac for starting it.

http://leswanson.org/Downloads/WitP%20Ships.xls

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SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 2:29:07 AM   
ETF


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This spreadsheet is a great help thanks for all your hard work!!

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 3:06:30 AM   
pompack


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Love the spreadsheet

Just a note: Helena has 6"x15 main battery (6/3/6)

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 12:42:18 PM   
SGT Swanson


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All I did was finish up what someone else started.  If you find errors, then plz correct them.

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SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 10:42:01 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


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Minor point:

SS-- The american subs are useless at the beginning, so i use them to transport emergency troops and supplies and lay tons of mines around islands like Midway and Johnston...

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RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 11:27:42 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Minor point:

SS-- The american subs are useless at the beginning, so i use them to transport emergency troops and supplies and lay tons of mines around islands like Midway and Johnston...

The US main fleet subs are terrible anti-shipping, but the S-boats can be very good. Also, the fleet subs are useless. They are great pickets and spies to see what the Japanese are doing. They can be the eyes and ears early in the war.

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Post #: 22
RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 11:29:46 PM   
Terminus


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Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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US fleet boats are far from useless. People look at the 80% dud rate, and forget that this is PER TORPEDO FIRED. You've got 27 boats in Manilla on 12/7, and they can launch an awful lot of attacks. You will get hits. I've gotten lots of them.

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(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 23
RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/20/2006 11:35:29 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

US fleet boats are far from useless. People look at the 80% dud rate, and forget that this is PER TORPEDO FIRED. You've got 27 boats in Manilla on 12/7, and they can launch an awful lot of attacks. You will get hits. I've gotten lots of them.

Right you are Terminus. I'm having my usual typing problems. I meant to say "far from useless." If an Allied player positions the subs well, he will get hits. Personally, I like to use my S-boats for that and the long legged fleet subs for picket and recon, at least in the opening 6 moths.

In my PBEM an S-boat hit the Akagi, sent it to the repair yards and chased the KB out of the DEI.

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(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 24
RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/21/2006 6:40:47 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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From: London UK
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Oh T .. the pain factor though !

Watching a japanese CV/BB/CA in the sights of SS "named" and you just know 120% for absolute sure they will fire duds or miss .

With SS "KX" "s-" "truant or trusty" maybe a large BANG .

so spare yourself the pain and use them, for mining/rescuing dutch BF;s and the 4TH USMC div from manilla .. soo much more useful and a LOT less painful ..

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(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 25
RE: What ships are best used for what? - 11/21/2006 7:58:20 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
AEs are neat things to base to forward base and replenish Bombardment TFs. Can "nuke" lot more that way..

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 26
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