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The glory of the SS - 8/21/2000 2:11:00 PM

Michael Wermelin

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I have, from time to time, felt that the different nations elite forces, specially the german elite forces needed adjustment. The SS in particular feels overrated in some terms and I don't know if this gloryfication has made it into the game because of the aura of the organization or because of hard facts. Nothing more than well trained political soldiers equipped with the newest and finest gear. But hardly the incarnations of all supreme warriors. I'm perhpas a little too hard in my judgement but the SS seems better than any other elite force and I simply ask why? Shouldn't the finns, canadians or some partisans have as good morale as the SS. Shouldn't the concept of veterans be something to add to the game, so that you could buy veteran infantry in small numbers and add it to your core? I think the SS are overrated as soldiers, perhaps not by much but they still rise above the rest. It would be great if someone who could clame solid knowledge about this wrote a line or two.

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- 8/21/2000 2:41:00 PM

Voriax

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Not just political soldiers..you might find this site interesting: http://www.uwm.edu/People/jpipes/start.html Plenty of information about SS and German forces in WW2 in general. Voriax

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- 8/21/2000 7:38:00 PM

amatteucci

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In fact I think that the 'Elite infantry' status should not be only attributed to Waffen SS forces in the German OOB. I wonder whether a soldier from Grossdeutschalnd Division was worst than any Waffen SS trooper. The best solution IMHO should be to make Heer and SS PzGren squads and give them this Elite status with the same stats, regular infantry and SS Grenadiere from less famous and trained divisions should be rated the same. Regards, Amedeo P.S. Having an experience/morale bonus/malus to be added directly to formations, as in SPWW2v3 should be the best solution. There are elite/normal infantry classifications in SPWaW but what about AFVs? A Soviet Guards tank unit should be better than a regular one, likewise the German Panzerwaffe retained their high experience and morale even after 1942 when the German infantry quality was steadily declining.

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- 8/21/2000 9:41:00 PM

Drake666

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Most Guard units were not that much better then the reguler soviet units. Often a formation would get Guard statis just becouse of one battle. They were not like the SS were the units got only the best personnal and equipment.

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- 8/21/2000 11:27:00 PM

victorhauser

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I'd rather not get too wound up about this topic this time around, but the Waffen SS did not get "the best of the best". Of the 38 Waffen SS divisional units formed during the war less half could be considered "good", and only a handful could be considered "elite". Most Waffen SS officers were chosen for political reliability rather than combat ability, most of their Wehrmacht counterparts were better trained and more highly skilled. If there is any reason at all for the persistence of the "elite" myth, it stems from the striking visual effect of their uniforms combined with the acknowledged preferential treatment a handful of Waffen SS divisions received regarding TO/Es and equipment replacement priorities. Here's another way to look at it. You could build about three Wehrmacht panzer divisions for two Waffen SS panzer divisions. Which would you rather have, three Wehrmacht or two Waffen SS panzer divisions? A careful analysis of performance reveals that usually Waffen SS units did not perform as well in combat as regular Wehrmacht units of the same type and size (there are exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the rule). Several notable German generals were reluctant to have Waffen SS units under their command, and Rommel refused to let the Waffen SS into the Afrikakorps at all. However, as noted above, due to the exceptional size and TO/Es as well as the favored replacement rates of a handful of Waffen SS divisions, the myth of the "elite" Waffen SS is preserved and maintained. Another reason for the "elite" myth is because the nations fighting against the Germans wanted a "bogeyman". And since the Waffen SS stood for everything evil about Nazi Germany, then they were prominantly mentioned in Allied communiques. And such publicity (even if unintended) remains in the minds of the masses. I personally believe that the two finest German divisions in WW2 were the Grossdeutchland and the 1st Fallschirmjager. The best of the Waffen SS divisions are significantly down the list in my opinion. I suppose we could start a "10 best German divisions" topic (please don't!), but I'm not sure any Waffen SS division would make my list. [This message has been edited by victorhauser (edited August 21, 2000).] [This message has been edited by victorhauser (edited August 04, 2000).]

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- 8/4/2000 11:39:00 PM

McGib

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I agree with you Victor. The SS was a politicly chosen formation, based on an individuals political reliabilty and his looks, after all every SS man has to be tall with blonde hair and blue eyes. One noteworthy battle involving ss units took place in Normandy against Canadian units. I've read a fair bit on this and most of the difficulty the Canadians had was the tenacity of the SS (Hitler youth in some cases). Like the marines in SP1 they just would not surrender or retreat. They were fanatical not "elite".

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- 8/5/2000 12:02:00 AM

Drake666

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I got to say that you guys got to read a bet more about history. The Waffen SS were giveing the best training and the best men and equipment. A lot of the best troops in WW2 were in the SS formations. Their were a few SS formations that were not to great but for the most part the SS formations were the Best of the Best with Kill rates way higher the any other troops. Take Michael Wittmann and the troops he commanded. You going to call all of the second rate troops to.

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- 8/5/2000 12:41:00 AM

Leibstandarte

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Mr. Victorhauser, Good to see a fellow resident of Austin! I must agree in part with your statement of the Waffen-SS. Most of the divisions were no better and some worse than your average unit. I must disagree though on the part of the Panzer divisions. Definitly the 1st and 12th SS Panzerdivisions were elite in every sense of the word. I would recommend the two books by Michael Reynolds as a start point to my point of view. I also believe this because of stories and the such from my Grandfather. I respect your point of view and agree with it with the exception of these few divisions.

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- 8/5/2000 2:09:00 AM

Tombstone

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I agree. The SS is overrated. I've read accounts of SS units performing poorly. However, they did supposedly have really good morale. Enough to get themselves lots of casualties in situations where more experiences units would have known better. If there was a seperation of morale and experience then I think a lot of units types could be modelled better. SS could have high morale and normal experience. NKVD units would be modelled similarly because they knew they were dead if they got caught. Whereas FJ units would get high morale and experience. Even though I don't buy into the myth of the SS. I think that the 2nd Panzer Corps when it fought with AG South under Manstien did some really good work. However, the whole of the 4th Panzer Army did some damn impressive things. Tomo

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- 8/6/2000 2:07:00 AM

Nikademus

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This issue got addressed in a previous (and at times quite heated) thread. Essentially, both sides of the argument are correct. A Waffen SS formation of itself, was not automatically an "elite" formation. It really depended on the specific unit, and the era as well. Some W-SS units deserved it, others did not. But the same holds true for alot of other titles normally associated as "elite". A prime example are the Soviet "Guards" formations. Some of 'them' were elite, others were not. The W-SS unit though takes the most flak because it carries the most baggage (politically and emotionally and with good reason in many cases) and some have expressed a vehement distaste for their presence at all much less being used to personalize 'elite' level troops for the German OOB (along with spec ops and FJ units) As discussed in other threads though, certain decisions have to be made for gaming purposes. SP:WAW already contains a staggering level of detail in the OOB's. But too much detail can lead to confusion as well as a shortage of available 'slots'. So 'elite' type troops need to be 'generalized' somewhat to conserve space. As one poster suggested, if one truely objects to it that strongly, they can modify their OOB accordingly.

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- 8/6/2000 4:40:00 PM

PanzerMeyer

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Waffen SS. Its a subject that a lot of people are scared to talk about. After movies like Schindlers List, and even Pvt Ryan (to a lesser extent) any view of the Waffen SS (except for 'they were a bunch of goosestepping moron Nazis who liked to kill jews) results in the holder of the opinion being branded a neo-nazi. The SS, as Obergrpf Paul Hausser said, is the worst understood armed wing of any nation in history. These guys, with the odd exception, werent jew killing sadists. The difference between the Heer and the WSS is in training. While the GD and PzLehr Divisions were well trained, and had distinguished historys, their training was still based on the old post war system. The Waffen-SS (and especially the "Germanic" SS Divisions, namely the 1st Liebestandarte Adolf Hitler, 2nd Dasd Reich, 3rd Totenkopf, 9th Hohenstaufen, 10th Frundsburg and 12th Hitlerjugend, 16th Reichsfuhrer-SS along whith the Non-Germanic 5th Wiking and 11th Nordland Divisions) were trained not to be 'soldiers' but to be 'fighters.' The SS men (especially the 12th SS Hitlerjugend Div) were the best in close combat. Many stories exist to testament the SS men's ferocity in attack and staunchness in defense. The WSS was superior to the Soviet Guards and equivalent British, Canadian and US Units OF THE SAME SIZE. While British Commandos and US Rangers were well trained, (if not as well as the WSS), they did not exist in Divisional size, with integral armour, arty and logistics. The modelling of the Waffen SS in the game is perhaps a good balance between the superd fighting skills of the Germanic SS Divisions, and in particular the 2nd Das Reich (yes, thats right, the 2nd is esteemed higher by its opponents than the 1st SS Liebstandarte AH) and the 5th Wiking divisons, and the poorly trained units like the 7th Prinz Eugen, 4th SS Polezi, 13th Handschar, Jurgen Stroops Ukranians etc etc etc. To represent Das Reich, HitlerJugend or Wiking troops, the unit ratings should be increased, and to represent the poorer 'Freiwillingen' divisions, they need to be lowered. But, as it stands, congratulations to Matrix for finding the best 'middle ground.' As for the 'Glorification' of the SS Mentioned by michael earlier, i dont think anyone with an IQ higher than the room temperature Glorifys what the SS fought for. Its the fighting qualities of these divisions that people glorify, The men behind the divisions, not their motivations. Men like Otto Wiedinger who captured Belgrade with 10 men, Kurt Meyer who led the Grenadiers of first the 1st and later the 12th SS divisions, Joachim Peiper whose Kampfgruppe fought all the way to Clervaux and Stavelot before being anihilated, and Mighael Wittman, need i say more. The list goes on and on. I will iterate again, that i despise the political side of the Waffen SS, but just as someone who is interested in the modern US army is not a Democrat, so those interested in the 2WW German Armed Forces is not a Nazi.

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- 8/7/2000 4:41:00 AM

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quote:

Originally posted by Leibstandarte: I must agree in part with your statement of the Waffen-SS. Most of the divisions were no better and some worse than your average unit. I must disagree though on the part of the Panzer divisions. Definitly the 1st and 12th SS Panzerdivisions were elite in every sense of the word. I would recommend the two books by Michael Reynolds as a start point to my point of view. I also believe this because of stories and the such from my Grandfather. I respect your point of view and agree with it with the exception of these few divisions.

First of all, Michael Reynolds is so infatuated with the Waffen SS, that he occasionally twists his facts to make the Waffen SS look better. I dont think he does this intentionally, but once he get started on one of his "SS good - allies bad" rants, his objectivity goes out the window. The 12th SS was recognized by their opponents as being tough and fanatic (translating into a higher morale in SP games) but tactically they were no better than any other German armoured division. A few of their battles in Normandy would suggest that they were, on some occasions, tactically inept. The "old" SS divisions like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th were as good as any of their Heer counterparts but I see no evidence that they were "better". The stories about SS formations getting the best equipment is largely myth. Their organisation was exactly the same as Heer units (As divisions) except that those raised from PzGren divisions to Panzer divisions had 2 extra battalions of infantry, another reason why they were more "durable" in battle. If you look at SS-divisions in Normandy and compare with Heer units, you will notice that 9th SS had its II. Abt. filled up with StuGs and 10th SS only had one tank battalion, half Pz IV and half StuGs. The bottom line is, you cannot generalize about the SS units more than you can about Heer units and the popular myth that the SS divisions were, as such, "elite" formations is just that - a myth. Claus B

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- 8/7/2000 9:17:00 AM

KG Erwin

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Michael, all you've done is to reignite a source of controversy that has been raging for over 50 years. There is NO doubt, IMHO, that certain Waffen SS formations DID exhibit better overall combat effectiveness in relation to their Heer counterparts. HOWEVER, this didn't occur until the Reich was struggling to maintain its strength in the field, say, from spring 1943 until the end. It was at that point that a certain number of panzer and panzergrenadier divisions (the 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS PzGr and the Grossdeutschland (Heer) PzGr Divisions), were given the newest and best equipment in preparation for Operation Zitadelle, the ill-fated attack on the Kursk bulge. Until that point, I believe that the Waffen SS divisions were overall no more effective in battle than most of the Heer divs. I believe that the elite status of these divs was earned AFTER July 43 in the east and AFTER June 44 in the west. This applies to games that are on the divsional level (such as SPIs old War in The East). Nevertheless, in SPWAW terms these units DO deserve elite status during the period BEFORE July 43 simply because they got the best recruits and the best indoctrination. It's been said, however, that they suffered more casualties because of their training for the assault, ala the US Marines. So, you could argue that they are more effective but also more prone to take losses.The argument goes on. There's my 2 cents worth. ------------------ "Klotzen, nicht Kleckern (roughly translated, 'Use the fist, not the fingers')"--Heinz Guderian

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- 8/7/2000 10:09:00 AM

Drake666

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Will their is no way to convence some people that the Waffen SS in genaral deserved Elite states becouse as long as they have SS in their name, people are going to hate them and see what they want to see and to hill with hictoric fact.

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- 8/7/2000 12:16:00 PM

Leibstandarte

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Well everybody is entitled to their opinions and I respect that. I'm just glad to see this discussion has remained civil and objective. Which ever your belief is let's just ensure we do three things. First is to make sure we continue to support Matrix Games. Especially when they start releasing their games for sale. Second no matter what the subject keep the discussions polite and cordial. And third let's enjoy the gaming. Anyway that's my thoughts for today. Thanks for your time.

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- 8/7/2000 3:03:00 PM

Arralen

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A distant relative of mine was a tanker on the east front - a good tanker, I suppose, as he got the iron cross and such. When he got the iron cross, however, he was send on 2 weeks "Heimaturlaub", and when he came back to his unit he was told that he was moved to the SS as a "reward". No, he wasn't asked about this, nor was he a member of "the party". He was captured by the russian 2 months later and immediatly (hopefully) shot as he wore the SS uniform. Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited August 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited August 07, 2000).]

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- 8/7/2000 11:54:00 PM

Supervisor

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Hopefully the previous post will end this discussion.

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- 8/8/2000 3:40:00 AM

Tombstone

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This is a valid and interesting discussion. There is a great deal that is misunderstood about the Waffen SS. I do agree with Liebstandarte completely, and am happily impressed that this discussion hasn't gotten mean. I think we can safely say, for the most part, that SS units had a higher average morale than the other units due to their soldiers feeling like they are part of a 'special' unit. That doesn't mean better tactically, but being fanatical has it's advantages. Like I said before, I think that we could better model the various higher quality units in WW2 better if we had the power to seperate morale and experience adjustments for units. Tomo

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- 8/8/2000 4:50:00 AM

Drake666

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quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: This is a valid and interesting discussion. There is a great deal that is misunderstood about the Waffen SS. I do agree with Liebstandarte completely, and am happily impressed that this discussion hasn't gotten mean. I think we can safely say, for the most part, that SS units had a higher average morale than the other units due to their soldiers feeling like they are part of a 'special' unit. That doesn't mean better tactically, but being fanatical has it's advantages. Like I said before, I think that we could better model the various higher quality units in WW2 better if we had the power to seperate morale and experience adjustments for units. Tomo

I think that any unit with a higher morale is going to be better tactically, just becouse of the fact that they are not going to break under fire and the officers know that. Also you take any infantryman with high morale and he is going to shot and perform better then one with low morale. As for the experince of the SS units. You take it and its personnal and look at the amount of action thay have seen and its a lot higher then allied units and somewhat higher then their Army counterparts. Also you got to remember that a lot of experince army personnal were tranceford to the Waffen SS divisions.

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- 8/8/2000 6:02:00 AM

orc4hire

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"I think that any unit with a higher morale is going to be better tactically, just becouse of the fact that they are not going to break under fire and the officers know that. Also you take any infantryman with high morale and he is going to shot and perform better then one with low morale." The French in 1914 are certainly proof of that.... Even a cursory look at history will find plenty of examples of enthusiastic amateurs getting the crap kicked out of them by less enthusiastic, but more skilled, professionals. A soldier with high morale is better than one with low morale, certainly, just as a live soldier is better than a dead one, but a soldier with both good morale and skill is more valuable than one with great morale and poor skill. High morale alone is only good for high casualty rates. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that certain SS units displayed both high morale and considerable skill. There is also plenty of evidence that on many occasions SS units were very clumsily handled, and all in all a good case could be made that the same resources in the hands of the regular army would have been overall more productive. (This is even more dramatically shown in the case of the Luftwaffe ground units. The Fallschirmjagers were very very good. The other field divisions, despite lavish supplies of high quality manpower and equipment, were very very bad.)

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- 8/8/2000 9:11:00 AM

Tombstone

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Yah, but Luftwaffe ground forces didn't even have the fanaticism... FJ were hardcore, but luftwaffe units were inexpeienced and didn't have great morale. Not that they had much of a chance to get experience. It's cant be pleasant to be dropped into the inferno of the eastfront. Tomo

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- 8/8/2000 10:29:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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Freds editor can do great things with each of the unit ratings! We have changed the distributions in the values so they will have more variation, but fewer in the "tails".

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- 8/8/2000 1:06:00 PM

Michael Wermelin

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Now I have read some answers to my topic and I must say that there seems to be a lot of knowledge around. Some have mentioned the misuse, or bad tactics used by the SS. My next questions is then: The officers of the SS, were they originally proven officers of the Heer or just the outcome of politicaly schooled academics or both? The low ranking officers were for certain proven or taken from the own ranks of the SS but my question concerns the higher ones, those who decided the tactics and drew the plans. [This message has been edited by Michael Wermelin (edited August 08, 2000).]

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- 8/8/2000 10:28:00 PM

jerrek

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i was under the impression that SS troops (at least in the better divisions) were of better quality (fitness and age selection) but that the training that they received (and particularly the officers) was of lower quality due to the SS not being as experienced. In fact if not for the pyscological benefits it may incur they probably would have been better without them. Having many different armed forces was at least not efficient

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- 8/8/2000 10:57:00 PM

Drake666

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quote:

Originally posted by jerrek: i was under the impression that SS troops (at least in the better divisions) were of better quality (fitness and age selection) but that the training that they received (and particularly the officers) was of lower quality due to the SS not being as experienced. In fact if not for the pyscological benefits it may incur they probably would have been better without them. Having many different armed forces was at least not efficient

Far from it, lets look at the 1st SS panzer devision. It had as its core the Hitler Bodyguard regiment that was very highly trained and many troops in the other devisions were sent to special training schools with the best teachers that could be found. As for combat experince, most SS devisions had a lot veterin troops that had seen lots of action. By 1944, Waffen SS formations like the 1st had seen more hard action then any other formation around.

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- 8/9/2000 12:16:00 AM

Skuderian

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Hi Guys! I listened your discussion with a smile. I think most of you are americans, so have no direct contact to the last living german members of WW2. If you are really interested in knowing the truth, read "Erinnerungen" from Heinz Guderian, Mansteins "Lost victorys" or "Grenadiere" from Kurt "Panzermeyer" Meyer. Until the end of 1943 all of this guys where volunteers, so they have higher morale than the conscripted one. They also tried many new methods for training. So for 12. SS-Pz. Div. "Hitlerjugend" Drill was forbidden, the most important thing was sports. They were not allowed to drink alcohol, cigarettes where allowed after their 18th birthday. The only difference between SS-Pz. Div. and Heers Pz. Div. was that in the SS-Pz. Div there were three Bataillons in each Pz. Gren. Regiment instead of two. The logistic was the same for Heer and Waffen-SS, so there was no possibility to equip the Waffen--SS with better weapons. But most of the SS-Divisions where founded in the war, so it was easier to equip new formations with new equipment, instead of doing this thousand miles away. The officiers came from Heer like Hausser,Steiner,Gille,Eicke or Dietrich but there was a lack of young officiers and "Generalstabsoffiziere". It was the only possibilty to promote good soldiers early. So "Panzermeyer" was division commander at the age of 32. Last thing to be said, if you read the memory of Montgomery you will read that he feared the 12. SS-Pz. Div "Hitlerjugend" more than Rommel. If there are more questions ask me. Skuderian

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- 8/13/2000 12:36:00 AM

Fabs

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Hi, guys, just came back from my hols to find this interesting debate raging, and I could not resist the urge to join in. I belong to the school that thinks that "elite" ratings in the game are modelled in a way that can not possibly please all enthusiasts, because it is simply not possible. This is why we have been given the OOB editor and the ability to change almost any aspect that we might disagree with when designing scenarios. I do it regularly and have no complaints. As for my position on the great Waffen SS elite or not question, I agree with those who feel that in the game they have been over-rated, while other nationalities/formations have been under-rated.

------------------ Fabs

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- 8/13/2000 11:29:00 PM

Sgt Popov

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We have to consider that the SS units were of greatly varying quality, especially as the war went on and qualifications were lowered. Also some, like the unit developed out of Croatians (I believe something like 90 percent moslem) were not much more than paid mercenaries, and cant really be considered elite, or even decent combat troops. I would have to agree that the MAIN Germanic staffed SS divisions were elite troops. The mental Nazi brainwashing,and higher level of training given these troops, along with a more physically demanding training regimen, coupled with recieving the latest, greatest equipment,would classify these troops as elite. What I have trouble with in the game, is the inordinate number of fallschirmjaeger troops. They frequently outnumber the other types of infantry in campaign battles!!

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- 8/14/2000 1:05:00 AM

gdpsnake

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Who cares? The game is fun and can never really model actual history no matter your point of view. Every battle can be fought with different troops at different times and you get different results. Put 1000 'Audie Murpheys' or 'Bozo the Clowns" in - it's fun not WW2! And speaking of editing, where is this 'fred editor' I keep hearing (reading) about? Will it be (or something similar) included in Version 3?

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Post #: 29

- 8/14/2000 1:29:00 AM

Jon Grasham

Posts: 70
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: St.Louis, MO, US
Status: offline

Hey, 1000 Bozos could have won the war single handed! Just imagine the shock value of em! 1000 hideous creatures running towards an enemy. They would be terrified, and either run faster than they ever ran before, or just throw their weapons aside, curl up on the ground and hope they would awake from the nightmare! :-)

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(in reply to Michael Wermelin)

Post #: 30