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Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtual assets

 
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Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtual as... - 12/4/2006 5:04:50 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Since many of us who play WitP do, or have played the on-line games, I thought this article was interesting. I haven't read thru it in it's entirety. But it certainly opens up an interesting can of worms.

Basically, they are looking at the eventuality of the IRS taxing transactions for on-line games.

I've always found this aspect of MMORPGs fascinating. The fact that virtual gold (in the MMORPG), has real world value. Many of us might scoff at spending real money on a "Sword of JFB Slaying". But buying items in MMORPGs (or gold or real estate or power-leveling a character) with real world money via PayPal or however, happens all the time.

http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-6140298.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 12/4/2006 5:14:23 PM >

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:10:52 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Can I get a +5 Whiner Slayer sword? In bright magenta, please?

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:11:44 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Sure, but then you'd have to fall on it.

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:12:49 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Sure, but then you'd have to fall on it.


ouch...

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Post #: 4
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:12:59 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Ba-dum-pum!

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Post #: 5
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:13:30 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Sure, but then you'd have to fall on it.


No, you're thinking of the +5 Spammer King Slayer...

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Post #: 6
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:32:01 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		From the top page of Ebay, for “World of Warcraft” (most popular MMORPG on the international market right now).

Commonly for sale is:

2000 virtual gold for $12us + $2us for shipping.

2000 / 14 = a virtual “exchange rate” of 143ww to 1us.

From this mornings currency exchange rates…

1us = .75 Euros
1us = .5 Great Britain pounds.
1us = 1.15 Canadian dollars.
1us = 115 Japanese yen.
1us = 927 South Korean won.
1us = 11 Mexican pesos.

1us = 143 "World of Warcraft" gold.

Japan and S. Korean are certainly not 3rd world countries with run-away inflation. And yet, the gold in “World of Warcraft” trades at a very similar rate as the Japanese Yen.

Frankly, I find it fascinating. Evidently, somebody at the IRS thinks it’s fascinating as well.

-F-


< Message edited by Feinder -- 12/4/2006 5:40:24 PM >

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:36:42 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Can I get a +5 Whiner Slayer sword? In bright magenta, please?

I want one that causes all whiners to instantly burst into flames, evil geniuses will be spaired of course.

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Post #: 8
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:41:20 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The Big Red Button Of Whiner Immolation, maybe?

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 5:56:41 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

2000 virtual gold for $12us + $2us for shipping.

Is this a joke? How do you ship virtual gold?!

Reminds me of the wireless network cable I wanted to sell on ebay...

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Post #: 10
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:00:40 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yeah, I've got an invisible robot to sell you...

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Post #: 11
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:01:47 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline 		But wait, there's more! 

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Post #: 12
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:02:10 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

2000 virtual gold for $12us + $2us for shipping.

Is this a joke? How do you ship virtual gold?!



by e-mail. The $2 is to cover the e-mail tax...

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 13
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:05:20 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I have no idea what the $2 is for. I know in some MMORPGs, there are middle-man "companies" (guilds) that act pass the item(s) from the seller to the buyer once payment is made.

1. Seller gives item to trusted middle-man.
2. Buyer makes payment.
3. Middle-man gives items to buyer.

Otherwise, payment could be made, and seller never gives up item.

The $2 could well be a payment to the middle-man guild. I have no idea tho. I never bought anything in-game (altho Dave, did you know our idiot-brother Paul used to buy stuff in AC2?).

-F-

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:13:45 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		The whole idea of taxing virtual property is crap. Its just another way for the government to put their hand in your pocket. I say if they can start taxing virtual money, then we should be able to pay in virtual money. Either that or I'll stop playing altogether. Why don't they tax Monopoly money? I mean there are probably millions of Monopoly players, why doesn’t the IRS monitor each game and make players pay a tax each time they make a transaction. The world is becoming a crazy place.

< Message edited by Kid -- 12/4/2006 6:24:00 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:15:27 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Maybe its a move by our elected officials to make the gamming Lobby pay them bigger bribes.

< Message edited by Kid -- 12/4/2006 6:22:58 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:16:42 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		i can see it now:

IRS: "OK, you made this mod for WITP, and in it you gave the Japanese player two extra aircraft carriers. Now, adjusted from 1941 rates for inflation, we figure they would be worth about $350,000,000 dollars each, for a total of $700,000,000.00. We figure you owe a "gift tax" on $699,990,000.00. With past due penalties and interest from 1941, that is $198.2 billion real dollars. How would you like to arrange payment?"


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Post #: 17
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:18:50 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Argh! My mod is going to be unpayable!

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Post #: 18
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:22:29 PM   
captskillet


Posts: 2493
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
Status: offline 		Im sure I would wind up in a Federal Pen somewhere but I think I would have to tell them to kiss my virtual a**!

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Post #: 19
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:31:50 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		What I want to know is can I give the GF a virtual diamond ring and pay for it with virtual money.

I suspect I would get a very real @$$ whooping.

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Post #: 20
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 6:31:53 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Im sure I would wind up in a Federal Pen somewhere but I think I would have to tell them to kiss my virtual a**!


Don't mess with the IRS... Tax evasion is what they nailed Capone on...

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 8:20:00 PM   
Tetsuo

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 9/15/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Don't mess with the IRS... Tax evasion is what they nailed Capone on...


They'll never take me alive!

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Post #: 22
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 9:20:47 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i can see it now:

IRS: "OK, you made this mod for WITP, and in it you gave the Japanese player two extra aircraft carriers. Now, adjusted from 1941 rates for inflation, we figure they would be worth about $350,000,000 dollars each, for a total of $700,000,000.00. We figure you owe a "gift tax" on $699,990,000.00. With past due penalties and interest from 1941, that is $198.2 billion real dollars. How would you like to arrange payment?"




This is great. As Japan I know I can't beat the Allies materially, so I beat him financially.
Must sink as many of the US CAs as I can so my opponent gets huge tax demands for those respawned ships. He'll have to sue for peace 'cos he can't fight the war from a prison cell when he fails to pay up. I'll call it Operation IRS


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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 10:16:22 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		People are totaly dumb to pay for lets say RPG characters for some on-line games , i also heard that some people's were trading items for Diablo 2 when it was popular... how retorted can one be to pay real cash for some item in the game

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 10:29:56 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		While I shake my head as well Prz, it does happen all the time. It's extrememly difficullt to get a real handle on the "virtual industry", but I've read articles that estimate the "value" of the on-line game economies to be nearly a billion dollars a year (which is about the value of the game market itself!).

Recent issue of PC Gamer magazine profiled a "company" in China who employs 60 - 100 persons, that litterally all they do is play the World of Warcraft, and sell their items to players. There are many companies just like it.

Why would a player pay real money for virtual items? Again, while I would not, I can see some of the justification...

a. Believe it or not, the the largest purchasing power in the gaming market is the 25 - 35 year old group. On-line games require a credit card (or Mom & Dad's). 25 - 35 year olds have the money to spend. But they may not have the TIME, so...
b. If you're a young professional who wants to play with all the cool toys, but don't have the time to get them, just buy them.
c. If you're a young professional who doesn't have the time to level up to "the really cool stuff", just pay somebody to level up a character for you.
d. If you take a break from the game, and all your virtual friends have kept levelling (you're now 6 months "behind"), pay somebody to level your character and/or get the items you need to close the gap.
e. Same as E, except maybe your friends convince you to start the game, so you pay somebody to "catch up" to thier characters so you can all group together.

People give all sorts of reasons. It doesn't matter what we think (that it's stupid). The truth is there is LOT of (real) money changing hands over virtual items.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 12/4/2006 10:41:06 PM >

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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/4/2006 10:30:15 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		So it's official? The white sharks have smelled the blood?



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RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/5/2006 1:22:46 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

The whole idea of taxing virtual property is crap. Its just another way for the government to put their hand in your pocket. I say if they can start taxing virtual money, then we should be able to pay in virtual money. Either that or I'll stop playing altogether. Why don't they tax Monopoly money? I mean there are probably millions of Monopoly players, why doesn’t the IRS monitor each game and make players pay a tax each time they make a transaction. The world is becoming a crazy place.


The difference is that I have not heard of anybody trading Monopoly money for real money. When real money is exchanged for something, whether physically tangible, or virtual, the IRS wants a cut of the transaction. If a large enough number of people are trading something so that it has a fairly stable value, even if no US currency trades hands, the IRS assumes that something of value that could be traded for US currency has traded hands and they want a piece of it.

Technically, the IRS does not care if the income was legal or not. Drug dealers are just as subject to IRS rules as the rest of us. There have been cases where the IRS has slapped drug dealers with big bills when they showed up on the radar. As someone else pointed out, they eventually got Capone on tax evasion.

This trade in game assets is essentially a new form of software. We pay money for computer software. Some of it, such as Linux is free, and people pirate it, but most computer software is sold to customers. We are buying something virtual there too. You aren't paying much for the CD it comes on. A disc with an old game on it might be $10 in the bargain bin, but a disc of exactly the same quality with Adobe Photoshop on it would be several hundred dollars. You can even download the content after paying for it.

I hate the IRS just as much as every American. I can see where there are precedents for this though.

Bill

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Post #: 27
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/5/2006 1:50:58 AM   
Charbroiled


Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Why would a player pay real money for virtual items? Again, while I would not, I can see some of the justification...


Feinder....I have a slightly used Jap CV, complete with air units (exp. 80+) I'll sell you for $20.

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Post #: 28
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/5/2006 2:23:50 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Now, now charbroiled.  I'm not sure if you remember when they had air-fragments changing sides in WitP.

I'm sure a CV changing sides would cause serious havoc with the code! 

Now if only I could mule my own CVs from one game to another...

Hmmm...

-F-

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Post #: 29
RE: Somewhat OT, but sorta relevant :Taxation of virtua... - 12/5/2006 3:37:15 AM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder


Otherwise, payment could be made, and seller never gives up item.


-F-


Welcome to Ebay. I bought a book, only $4.50 thank goodness. It never shipped. I filed a grievance. I won said grievance. Ebay said to collect it from the seller.

Ebay BAD!!!!!


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