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Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 4:10:29 AM

moose1999

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Well, I just fought Stonewall Jackson on a plain in Fayetteville - and I got my ass whooped.
I had him greatly outnumbered. He had three brigades, I had a corp with two full divisions.
My brigades mostly had Minie rifles with one or two Springfields and maybe one musket.
All my brigades' morale was between 2 and 3.
I had a decent general (Palmer) leading my corp.

Jackson had set himself up on the far side of the map next to a lake and I had to wander around blind the whole first day looking for him before I made contact.
His three brigades were all "entrenched".
I decided to wait untill the next day to attack, using the night to resupply my brigades which had started with pretty low supply values (don't know how to prevent that on the strategic map).
When morning broke, I attacked him from two sides simultaniously, attacking from the backside of the entrenchments (don't know if that has any effect on the defensive bonus ...?) but even before my troops made contact the lowest quality ones started to rout.
After the first turn of combat my whole left flank was routing (most of them hadn't even been fired on yet) and my other division was severely shaken.
A few more rounds of combat and the rest of my troops had routed.

Humiliating to say the least. All in all I only killed 27 of his soldiers and I only saw one or two volleys from my men that inflicted more than 1 (yes - 1!) casualty.

What in the ...!... happened here?

I tried again a few turns later - this time I inflicted 31 casualties....!

Now, here I could start to bitch about the whole thing and blame faulty game mechanics for my failure, but I'm sure it's all my own doing and besides that, I love the challenge that Jackson and his stonehard Virginians (if it's them at all) are proving to be.
But - I really need some advice.

What in the world can I do to break down this stone wall standing between me and the Mississippi? My entire grand strategy depends on Palmer's corp defeating Jackson's measly three brigades, so I can start rolling down along the Mississippi like a giant blue anaconda...!

Kentucky went to the CSA so I have to put some kind of pressure on the rebels now.

So, any ideas?
Bring in even more men?
Tons of artillery?
Lure him on the offensive - and how would I do that?
Bribe him...?!!!

< Message edited by briny_norman -- 12/5/2006 4:18:01 AM >

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 4:38:16 AM

sirduke_slith

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Well i think the only way to destroy jackson would be to bring in veteran troops who know what they are doing (so they won't rout easily), and maybe try have some artillery (as you stated above) to try and soften his defences before charging. Trust me you are not the only one to have trouble defeating Jackson (Pope, Hooker, etc...)

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 6:19:40 AM

Hard Sarge

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I like the last one !

Total War anyone ???

Good Troops, dugin with a Good Leader

ahhhh, that can be fun

have you been getting any screening chances ?

you may need to get a battle with them out of the holes

plus early on, you need to do as much fighting as you can within the first day, your morale can not take the day two morale hit

are you staying out of the yellow or red hexes ?

those will break you fast

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 7:22:23 AM

Steely Glint

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
plus early on, you need to do as much fighting as you can within the first day, your morale can not take the day two morale hit

I found that out the hard way. Ouch!

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 2:00:12 PM

Hard Sarge

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Yes, one thing the Union doesn't have early on, is staying power, until training and some new units come in, they are pretty much one shot wonders

now, if you got springfields and they got muskets or IWs, you got a little better staying power, the trick is to know if they do, as one unit of Lorenzs or Enfields, or even Springfields can ruin your little plans

but the AI dugouts are nasty

if you got some money look into buying some sharpshooter skills, you may not do much damage to the dugin troops, but you can still lower there morale some, lower it enough and they may break

plus, you may be able to also drain them of there supply, while they will still be able to fire, they will not fire as well (remember, every time they get fired on, they fire back, even if they do not have the range to fire back (odd, but that is the way it works)

a good Arty Bde can come in handle, but they slow and take time to get into place, and if you got to build one, they take some time

(you can also buy the Arty skill, two times to the same Bde and it will change into a Arty Bde (or Cav if you add Cav) but it will also take a LARGE hit to Quality level (at times down to .075) which pretty much means, if they take return fire, they gonna break and run, and one thing you do not ever want to see, is your arty running away, since they normally just give up

it is a gamble, but with a Gun with a range of 4, you got a decent chance of being able to sit outside of there range (trick is to use your Inf, to find there range, and then move the gun close enough, so it can do some damage, with out takeing any in return)

make sure you support your Arty, the AI will charge them, almost any chance they get

a shot at a Arty bde, is one thing that will draw out a dugin troop

also, you can work the flanks, get the dugin troops to change there facing, it turns to the flank, it means you got flank shot from someplace else to take, and if that just happens to be you Arty or a sniper, so much the better

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 2:40:06 PM

moose1999

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Thanks Sarge, some good points, there. (Yeah, my bribe comment was inspired by the Total War games

.)

The situation is becoming more serious as we speak as the rebels are moving to reinforce Jackson. The reinforcements are two provinces away so I have to attack him again on the next turn...! Which rules out calling in additional troops, e.g. artillery.

I definately did not take the day-one morale loss into consideration. On the contrary, I always take my time�- mainly because my units start with low supply levels so I have my lone supply wagon fill them up - this takes time, at least half a day or something.

Staying out of the yellow hexes - another good point. I seem to remember I actually left my weakest division to camp for the night in a yellow-hex area in the first battle...

�Makes sense then, that they were in no shape to fight the next day.

I haven't had any screening options yet - the only pre-battle option I've had at this time (middle of 62) is being able to choose the battlefield.

About weapons - how do I find out what weapons the enemy has? I can't seem to access that kind of information, neither on the strategic map or the tactical.
It would be really great�if there were some�way to find out a bit more of your enemy on the strategic map apart from a rough estimation of their numbers and a generals name here and there.

And lastly, the overall problem here is low quality union troops (defininately not my command abilities...!

), so how do I raise it? (the troop quality, that is�- I, myself, am a lost cause).
Do I have to train new units to get better ones or will my existing units get better morale with time? I haven't been training new infantry at all untill now as I�didn't want to raise my army upkeep and�hoped my existing brigades would "mature" with time or something. Was this a mistake?

Well, lots of questions - hope you have the time and patience to answer some of them.

< Message edited by briny_norman -- 12/5/2006 2:49:14 PM >

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/5/2006 2:58:58 PM

Hard Sarge

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Well for some of that

you may have FOW turned on, if so, the only way to try and judge what they got, is to move in and see if they fire

each time you have a battle there is a chance your troops may improve, think part of it is based on the size of the battle (small, battle or Dec Battle) with each type having a better chance

but, new troops are normally better then some/most of the starting troops

which one idea, but I do not care for it, is you could build a new unit and then disband a old one, that would keep you costs the same

two provinces away ?

hmmm, that could be close, the odds are you move and they will move, if they with in one province they can then be called in for reinforcements, but not many of them should make the battle if they do get called in, also, if you on the attack, only the beginning troops will be dug in, the reinforcements will be in the open

ahhh, the screening is a die roll, and you may fail and he may fail, odds are though with Stonewall, he gonna get the better chances

good luck

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 12:50:56 AM

Gil R.

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If you can afford it, buy the "Zouaves" attribute for some of your units, which will give them a significant morale boost just before battle begins.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 4:20:14 AM

moose1999

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Again, thank you both for your advice.
Just to round things off:
I tried one final attack against Jackson and it went down just like you predicted, Sarge.
Reinforcements were called in and they arrived just in time to participate in the slaughter.
I banged my head against the stone wall for half a day and then my units started to rout and routed right into the arms of the reinforcements.
A true bloodbath.
I lost nearly half of one of my divisions and my best brigade surrendered to the enemy. And I lost a handful of Springfield and Minie rifles too.
I guess the stone wall will stay up for a little while...

Cheers!

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 7:21:35 AM

Hard Sarge

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it sounds like it was still a good battle, and that is to the good

which one thing is, you can still use these as learning battles

I have been to the point, were I can pretty much tell, if I have a chance to win, when the battle starts, and if I know I can not crack the enemy line, I will pretty much run away instead (still got a chance to lose weapons though, but you don't lose the troops)

(which there are also battles, where you main goal is to just hurt the other side, even if you know you are not going to win)

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 8:31:22 AM

Tanaka

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I thought I read in the manual that in order to dig in and entrench your unit had to have that special skill.

Does this not apply to the AI?

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 9:01:34 AM

Hard Sarge

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nope

the AI has it's own Dugin, the player needs the hasty upgrade or the digger skill
(but the AI can not dig in, other then the starting postion, with out the hasty or digger skill)

design decison, and it does what it was intended to

(one thing I do look for when I promote Generals to 3 or 2 stars is if they got the digger skill, I am willing to gamble on a poorer leader to have a chance to train in this skill)

(for me, Digger, fast, obleakfire, shooter are some of the key skills,)

(there is a great one for Arty, but I not spelling too good right now)

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 9:33:27 AM

Gil R.

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Exactly. Letting the AI dig in at the beginning of a battle struck us all as a fine way of giving the AI a boost without some hidden "cheat," thus making detailed battle more challenging.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 7:16:09 PM

moose1999

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I'll say it's challening - especially if you're up against Jackson!
And a lot of fun, too

All my three humiliating battles against Jackson, each in their own way, were interesting and, as you say Sarge, good for learning.
After this, there are several things I'll be doing very differently and a couple of things I won't ever do again. For example attacking Jackson with anything but crack troops, a full artillery division (!!!) and a 4 to 1 ratio in men.

By the way, Sarge and Gil, if you're still listening, is it possible to get legendary units during the game like with generals?. I mean, each time you train a unit is there a possibility that it will be a legendary one? Or are all the legendary units distributed from the start?

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 7:52:18 PM

Hard Sarge

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they are random, and there is a chance each time a unit is built that it may be one of the Fancy ones

and some of them are pretty good ones too :)

one thing for your plans on Jackson, don't get set up for the overkill, you really need to learn what is needed to do the job and then go for it (of course, extra is always good)

(I mean, 1 Arty Bde may turn the tables, so you do not need to wait for 5 of them)
plus the longer you wait, the better those troops with Jackson are going to be, he will be trying to train them too, but it is one of the good hassles in the game, are you strong enough now, or do you wait, if you wait, is the enemy going to be stronger !!!

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/6/2006 8:18:59 PM

Gil R.

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As Hard Sarge said, there is always a chance of producing a Legendary Unit (though I don't think they appear if one musters or conscripts).

With one or two exceptions (e.g., Berdan's Sharpshooters comes to mind), every LU can only be produced in a single state, and some states have more than others. Virginia, for example, has many more than Arkansas. So there is a way to try to "game" the system. (This tip isn't in the manual. I only share it here on the forum with you, my loyal readers.)

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 1:03:17 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Exactly. Letting the AI dig in at the beginning of a battle struck us all as a fine way of giving the AI a boost without some hidden "cheat," thus making detailed battle more challenging.

Might there be an option to turn this off in a future patch? Although I appreciate trying to make detailed battles more challenging this sort of makes them boring and repetitive. It is an AI cheat but as you said it is not hidden. I would prefer the AI to only be able to dig in the same way as I with the correct skill to do so. This would make the battles more varied and fun...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 12/7/2006 1:12:47 AM >

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 1:26:09 AM

Hard Sarge

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I do not think anything is totally written in stone, so it may be a good thing to put into the wish list if this is what you really want or think would be better

but right now, I think it is a basic part of the defenceminded AI setting

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 1:29:33 AM

Gil R.

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I'd want people to get a lot more familiar with detailed battles before we make such a change. This was one feature that we did think long and hard about.

But Hard Sarge is right that it can be added to the Wish List thread.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 1:33:58 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I'd want people to get a lot more familiar with detailed battles before we make such a change. This was one feature that we did think long and hard about.

But Hard Sarge is right that it can be added to the Wish List thread.

Thanks guys! Will do!

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 2:23:19 AM

Sheytan

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problem with the game currently is you can get multiple incarnations of LU's I started a game last night as confeds, 1861 july scenario and had 2 stonewall units in diff stats at game start and 2 of another LU elsewhere. mind you I wasnt complaining, and in my mind simply justified it as the principals IE Stonewall Jackson simply raised 2 birgades lol...but im sure this wasnt intended.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 2:26:07 AM

Gil R.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

problem with the game currently is you can get multiple incarnations of LU's I started a game last night as confeds, 1861 july scenario and had 2 stonewall units in diff stats at game start and 2 of another LU elsewhere. mind you I wasnt complaining, and in my mind simply justified it as the principals IE Stonewall Jackson simply raised 2 birgades lol...but im sure this wasnt intended.

That's a bug. Could you please post it in the support forum, and hold on to the save-game in case Eric needs it?

I've never seen that happen before, and it never happened in playtesting. I think what might be happening is that we had talked of making particular LU's always appear in the Bull Run scenario, but if this was implemented then there wasn't code added to keep them from appearing randomly as well.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 2:51:14 AM

freeboy

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ok now I feel just silly... how do you buy an attribute for a unit?

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 2:54:23 AM

Gil R.

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When the unit is highlighted, click on one of those two vertically stacked blue boxes near the bottom of the screen, to the right of the unit's weapon. This works for brigades, forts, and ships.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 3:05:04 AM

Hard Sarge

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click here and it will bring up a screen to pick from, if you what is needed to buy it

Attachment (1)

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 3:30:16 AM

freeboy

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ow, is this a training thing?

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 3:31:46 AM

Gil R.

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No -- you purchase the attribute, and it's there by the end of that turn.

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 3:33:54 AM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

When the unit is highlighted, click on one of those two vertically stacked blue boxes near the bottom of the screen, to the right of the unit's weapon. This works for brigades, forts, and ships.

this works for Inf, Cav, Arty and Forts, not Siege Arty, Gunboats or Ships

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 3:37:04 AM

freeboy

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Right, you purchase an attribut, simulating training?

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RE: Tearing down a stone wall...? - 12/7/2006 3:48:52 AM

Gil R.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

When the unit is highlighted, click on one of those two vertically stacked blue boxes near the bottom of the screen, to the right of the unit's weapon. This works for brigades, forts, and ships.

this works for Inf, Cav, Arty and Forts, not Siege Arty, Gunboats or Ships

You're right: not ships. My mind is going... Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer true...

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