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Newbie allied observations - 12/7/2006 10:22:12 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		I thought I'd share some (cynical) allied newbie observations (often through painful first hand experience). Just nicely settled into my second AI campaign (after nuking the only save of my first one in an embarrassing overwrite error). Any corrections or advice are certainly welcome.

West Coast US / Pacific:
1) There is no fuel in the south pacific. A single carrier ACTF or cruiser SCTF can suck up all the fuel in every small island from French Polynesia to the Phoenix Islands in the first two weeks of December 41. All for the pleasure of sinking a handful of transports at Rabaul or Tarawa. Waiting for resupply then in New Zealand for four weeks is restful but not very exciting.
2) Never, ever forget to mass disable airgroup upgrades and replacements, particularly on the west coast. Unless you plan on impressing the chicks in San Diego with your shiny new Warhawk while some poor bastard in the Solomons is stuck evading zero-san in a P35 Mudhen until 1943.

DEI - Phillipines - Malaya
3) Mersing is NOT connected to Singapore.
4) Anything labelled 'fighter' which is not a P40 is a gross misrepresentation. What you get are plenty of slow moving bomb delivery platforms of various loadouts. Putting 'fighters' on escort duty only seems to encourage lopsided air-to-air engagements that kill your pilots before their aim improves.
5) The treasonous dogs of Royal Dutch Shell will stockpile oil in indestructible reservoirs until Mr.Tojo comes to collect it. Even then it seems they'll fight tooth and nail so that your engineers fail to even demolish the oil wells when withdrawing. Given that you will probably not kill many Japanese, the only measure of success defending DEI seems to be how much oil you get out...
6) US subs have torpedoes that don't explode and big comfy cargo bays. British and Dutch subs have exploding torpedoes and not enough cargo to load even a support squad. Guess which did what my first game...

India-Burma-China
7) Most of the troops that should be defending Burma are on the wrong side of the Himalayas or conducting a transect of the jungles of Laos. It's probably a good idea to start walking on Dec 8 and not waiting a week or two to see what develops. You might make Mandalay before February.
8) Just because it says division it doesn't mean it has more than a batallion worth of troops. Do check the unit details and turn ON replacements in India.
9) Do turn OFF upgrades for the British airgroups, especially without PDU. It happens so far into the future that it is easy to forget and you have noone to blame but yourself when your airbase gets pasted because your CAP now consists of a bunch of dismantled Dakotas in the hangar.

Everywhere but China
10) KB is a plane and ship eating black hole. My only successes dealing with it have been with extremely large aeronaval forces, like for example New Guinea.
Post #: 1
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/8/2006 2:26:32 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		If you study the history, much of what you said is in line with what actually happened. If you play the game for a while, the lot of the Allies improves dramatically. The Japanese were able to succeed as much as they did in the first months of the war because the Allies were not prepared. The only Allied strategy at the beginning of the war is to simply hold on and try to keep from losing too much ground to the Japanese.

The game doesn't produce enough P-40Es, so there is a shortage of them. You can ensure your units in the field get the supply of new planes by turning off replacements for the air units left in the states. The unit in the field will have to be in a base with enough supply, etc. to upgrade, but you can push the better aircraft out to the front line that way.

US torpedoes really were junk the first year of the war. They begin to improve in mid-1942 and are just as good as most other nations by 1943.

Bill

(in reply to qgaliana)
Post #: 2
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/8/2006 6:50:03 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I turn off replacements and upgrades before starting the game (it's a choice on the menus). This allows me to carefully choose who gets to take advantage of the sparse selection of replacements (besides, receiving replacements can also burn up valuable supplies).

I also turn off base construction in the main menus as well.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 12/8/2006 6:58:15 AM >

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 3
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/8/2006 4:23:43 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah I think it's mostly historical. No complaints for that.

I just never see much discussion of the allied end of things (I guess most people feel they don't need help).

But it seems there are plenty of little things that you can do or not do that if you screw up will add months to the time it takes to fight back or mess up any chances of early successes.

Anyone know if AVG is immune to zero bonus? I thought they were, put I just got pasted for 14-1 losses when KB forced the Macassar straight (Jan 42). I'm not 100% sure a B-17 didn't get the lone zero. Haven't checked fatigue, but they came off a day of rest after hopping from Sumatra to Borneo, shouldn't have been too high.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 4
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/8/2006 4:26:14 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		AVG is supposed to be unaffected by Zero bonus, but it is relatively easy using the game mechanics to destroy it (i.e. - multiple attacks by Zero sweeps from different bases will wreck the AVG in a turn.)

(in reply to qgaliana)
Post #: 5
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/8/2006 9:51:03 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

AVG is supposed to be unaffected by Zero bonus, but it is relatively easy using the game mechanics to destroy it (i.e. - multiple attacks by Zero sweeps from different bases will wreck the AVG in a turn.)

I have seen no evidence of this. In some recent campaigns against the AI, the AVG suffered as much as 10:1 losses against ordinary zero squadrons. I think they forgot to code the AVG exception into the game.

_____________________________


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(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 6
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/8/2006 11:55:23 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Actually, AVG was originally coded to NOT be immune to Zero bonus (therefore just like any other Allied unit, just with better than average experience). It was patched (about v1.2), to give only AVG immunity to the Zero bonus.

I usually see AVG trade 1:1 with most IJA Zero squadrons (so I try to NOT do this). Naturally, they do well vs. Nates and other crappy fighters, so that's where I try to commit them.

Against KB, AVG is going to lose. The avg exp of AVG is about 75. The avg exp of KB's Zeros is about 85. You're going to lose, pretty badly.

Best bet against KBs Zeros is your own medium and heavy bombers. If KB comes a callin' on one of your airfields (not the best use of KB), KB -will- demolish it. But if you have some fighters to escort your medium/heavy bombers and you launch vs. KB, you will (likely) knock down some Zeros with your own fighters and bombers. Don't get me wrong, the Allied losses will be horrendous. But frankly the only way to kill Zeros from KB is thru attrition, or getting a lucky CV strike and killing the Zeros home.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 7
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/9/2006 12:10:56 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder
I usually see AVG trade 1:1 with most IJA Zero squadrons (so I try to NOT do this). Naturally, they do well vs. Nates and other crappy fighters, so that's where I try to commit them.

Not to debate those who are of greater experience but, but I don't see anywhere near that good a result with the AVG going up against regular zeros (not KB). I see casualties rates more on the order of 5:1 or 10:1.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 8
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/9/2006 1:24:41 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I have seen no evidence of this. In some recent campaigns against the AI, the AVG suffered as much as 10:1 losses against ordinary zero squadrons. I think they forgot to code the AVG exception into the game.


A lot depends on what version you're playing. The AVG bonus only affects one slot in the database. In CHS, all groups were broken down into squadrons and only AVG squadron 1 remained in the bonus slot. When I played CHS, I found AVG squadron 2 and 3 got hammered while squadron 1 racked up a pretty hefty score.

RHS left squadrons 1 and 2 combined in the bonus slot and moved squadron 3.

Bill

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 9
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/9/2006 3:43:27 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		FWIW, I'm just playin stock. And I usually am not surprised by Zeros. If Zeros sweep your base, I've certainly seen loss rates of 8:1 if Zeros get the bounce. But I usually

a. Keep AVG at rear base, away from sweep range of any fighters.
b. Only bounce them onto the front line to ambush somebody else.
c. Pretty much the only time they're vulnerable is when the turn I transfer them (I often won't fly them the same turn as transfer, because I don't want the fatigue loss). But on the transfer turn, I set them to train, so they don't normally scramble (unless I forget to stand down).

Again, I do my best to NOT all AVG to be simply a static defensive CAP, or escorts. I use AVG as a "rapid deployment shock CAP", to surprise an enemy formation that has been bombing the same target constantly (and is predictable, and can be surprised).

Regards,
-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 10
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/9/2006 5:50:07 AM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder
Again, I do my best to NOT all AVG to be simply a static defensive CAP, or escorts. I use AVG as a "rapid deployment shock CAP", to surprise an enemy formation that has been bombing the same target constantly (and is predictable, and can be surprised).


Stock for me too, but only AI so far. But I try to use all my P40s the same way as an emergency fire brigade - I just don't get enough replacements for them to stand in one place and take even minor attrition.

In my case at least half my bombers got through (Martins and B17s) and I got to watch some 5000 ft runs at their carriers - all of which missed, but hey it felt better to try than just run away.

I'm almost scared to try a PBEM. The starting quality of the allied pilots is so bad it feels like an aggressive player could drive his death star up and down the DEI blowing everything to hell and I wouldn't be able to do a thing about it, other than pray for a lucky sub contact.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 11
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/9/2006 7:56:49 AM   
Capt Henry_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		I've had some luck against Zeroes in my PBEM by trying to indentify Japanese targets where the escorting Zeroes will be operating at close to maximum range. If I recall correctly, longer range ops result in less efficient pilot performance in battle. I didn't have many engagements the first couple months of the war, but have had several results better than to 1:1 P40:Zero before the Zero bonus ended completely. Most of my successes were in Australia where my P-40s could get some support from P-39s. They didn't help much against the Zeroes, but the 'cobras sure did a number on the Betties.

I've probably also been helped by a PBEM that seems to have had a slower pace or air ops than that discussed in the AAR's of the experienced players. My opponent and I are both noobs which I think has slowed the pace down a bit. Overall, my air to air fighter losses are about 1.8 times the number of Zeroes shot down. If I take the Buffaloes and Dutch fighters out, the figure drops to 1.1:1.

(in reply to qgaliana)
Post #: 12
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/9/2006 8:28:29 PM   
Tetsuo

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 9/15/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Since the Japanese have the edge in quality throughout all of 42 the only way to counter this is by numbers. The airfield needs to be stacked to the first limit ie a lvl6 airfield should have <600 planes together with an air HQ. Youll fly at 25% deficiency but the nice thing is that 1) after 1 day of battle the AF probably isnt overcrowded anymore and 2) the surviving pilots will have improved considerably and will have fresh pilots around to join them for 2nd and 3rd day strikes etc.

Put a BB TF in port to act as bait and/or to discourage bombardment runs. KB might still win with support of surface TFs but if youre not extremely unlucky with the almighty dice rolls and weather, it means you bought yourself time for p38s to arrive.

Important note: Dont forget to turn off replacements for airgroups. Otherwise youll still be overstacked and have a bunch of precious fighters sitting on the ground waiting to get bombed for no good.

Another note, some people consider overstacking gamey. Some people consider Japanese bombing of empty bases gamey. I accept both, and use overstacking to counter Japanese quality.

Finally if you have PDU on theres an option thats even better than converting everything to 4e and thats to convert everything you can to Beauforts. Even at low xp these planes seem to sink Japanese ships left and right. If you use the supply transport training method they are instant death to Japanese ships within range 4.

(in reply to Capt Henry_MatrixForum)
Post #: 13
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/10/2006 12:53:15 AM   
Gibbons

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		 
As another newb who's in first AI game against Japan, I've noticed KB pretty much does what it wants. The only option is to evacuate ships from in front of wherever KB is going, otherwise they become artificial reefs. And a KB attack on an airfield is devastating.

On a side track from this discussion, I decided (game in May '42) to try to rescue McArthur from Bataan using a fleet of AK running the gauntlet of airfields the Japanese now have in the DEI. I noticed though that there are no air units within 8 or 9 hex of Manila so figured if I could get up the slot past Bali, Balikpapan, and Kendari there would be smooth sailing. I ran 15 AKs up the slot and only lost one to air attack, made it to Bataan and loaded McArthur and some other almost decimated units, then ran east between Bonin and Pagan to Pearl without incident. I sent another 20 AKs on the same route and pulled out 6 depleted Base Units succesfully.

It became clear that sending APs and AKs in large enough numbers would allow all the troops left on Bataan to be saved. However, I decided this was not historically accurate and left all the fighting units there.

I doubt that in reality such large numbers of transports could have gotten to Bataan, let alone evacuate the troops, without being sunk. Anyone else do anything similar? And, is there an advantage in saving these almost completely denuded units, then slowly rebuilding them in a rear area?

McArthurs command is almost completely rebuilt now by the way.

One last thing, I've got three carriers east of Brisbane, KB just attacked Port Moreby into oblivion and is moving around the PM horn towards Rabaul. I've read here that at this early stage using U.S. CVs against the Japanese CV fleet is pointless. So my best bet would be to wait to see if KB leaves the area? They have 6000 troops at PM against my 20000, with one U.S. RCT squad holding the line. They also have a TF, 2BB, 1CA at PM.

I agree with the original post that fuel and supplies have to be on a continuous movement from the West Coast and Pearl, and from Karachi to OZ and the line of islands in between. I've also found that engineer units and aviation support units are high priority needs almost everywhere.


Gibbons


(in reply to Tetsuo)
Post #: 14
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/10/2006 2:20:56 AM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting - at least you have some variety Gibbons. My two games so far, the Phillipines is usually getting pasted by Betties for months. Plus KB has paid a week long visit to the islands twice. Or it sails around DEI. Not sure where I would safely send transports. But you say this was in May, so maybe if I'm still around by then the heat may have moved on enough to risk an evacuation.


(in reply to Gibbons)
Post #: 15
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/10/2006 2:25:35 AM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gibbons

 
I doubt that in reality such large numbers of transports could have gotten to Bataan, let alone evacuate the troops, without being sunk. Anyone else do anything similar? And, is there an advantage in saving these almost completely denuded units, then slowly rebuilding them in a rear area?



Reality is a fuzzy concept for this game. The simulation could be perfect, except we're only pushing little digital icons around. The biggest unreality here may be that no sane commander would have risked such a mission and gambled thousands of merchant mariners with their ships. But likely someone with more awareness than the AI would have put more effort into sinking them.

(in reply to Gibbons)
Post #: 16
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/10/2006 3:04:24 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tetsuo
Finally if you have PDU on theres an option thats even better than converting everything to 4e and thats to convert everything you can to Beauforts. Even at low xp these planes seem to sink Japanese ships left and right. If you use the supply transport training method they are instant death to Japanese ships within range 4.


The ironic thing is that no RAF Beaufort dropped a torpedo against the Japanese. I don't know about RAAF Beauforts. Some RAAF Beauforts did see combat, but from what I could glean in a quick Google search, all attacks appear to have been done with bombs.

The RAF Beauforts in Burma and India were trained for torpedo work and I believe they were issued torpedoes, but they were only used west of the Malay Peninsula, where there was very little Japanese shipping after early 1942.

The range of the Beaufort in the stock game and CHS is way too short. When they operated in Europe and the Med, they could carry a torpedo on a combat mission to a radius of nearly 400 miles from home base, which would be between 6 and 7 hexes in the game. I believe RHS has extended the Beaufort's range.

Bill

(in reply to Tetsuo)
Post #: 17
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/10/2006 3:30:37 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline 		There's a bunch of different points brought up in this thread so far. Here's a few things that I've found successful in the early war as an allied player:

1. Regarding fuel to So Pac - early game I send a large number of AOs in replenishment TFs to this theater. You will need fuel, but it's hard to know exactly where. 1 or 2 AEs as well.

2. I've had some limited luck against zeros before the bonus expires. Not in Dec/Jan, but in Feb-April. It requires a large superiority in numbers, however. 2:1 or preferably 3:1. And also preferably when the Zeros are tired (having flown continuously for a few days).

3. Well-experienced Beauforts can be killers, as someone noted, but their range is awful. B-25s/B-26s/Dutch Martins are also very good anti-shipping weapons when they gain a little experience, and have much better range as well. I personally like a mix.

4. I personally don't train bombers by flying supply to their own base. But using them on recon missions and/or naval search can build experience as well. Since those missions risk ops losses and/or could be countered, I don't consider it gamey. More importantly, IMO, the intelligence they gain can be very useful. IRL they were frequently used in such roles.

5. Except for Hurricanes, the early war fighter-bombers (Wirraways, P-39s, P-400s) are almost useless in a fighter-fighter engagement. But they can be useful in other roles. Wirraways do well in naval attack (250 lb. bomb) or ground attack. P-39s & P-400s also are good for ground attack. Also, with their cannon, they can be deadly against Jap bombers, particularly if the Japs are coming in at low-altitude on a torpedo run. Unless heavily outnumbered, I've found a mix of P-40s/Kittyhawks in a high-altitude CAP with P-39s/P-400s at a low altitude to be successful. Losses can still be high, but they're generally not completely one-sided.

(in reply to qgaliana)
Post #: 18
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/10/2006 4:12:35 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Best bet against KBs Zeros is your own medium and heavy bombers. If KB comes a callin' on one of your airfields (not the best use of KB), KB -will- demolish it. But if you have some fighters to escort your medium/heavy bombers and you launch vs. KB, you will (likely) knock down some Zeros with your own fighters and bombers. Don't get me wrong, the Allied losses will be horrendous. But frankly the only way to kill Zeros from KB is thru attrition, or getting a lucky CV strike and killing the Zeros home.

-F-


My experience is that the AI will run *all* its naval forces into harm's way. (In reality, the IJN was expecting into late 1943 that the war would be decided by a big surface battle, and tried to avoid unnecessary casualties to its major combatants in view of that.) Take advantage of that. It doesn't take too many bomb hits to degrade the KB markedly.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 19
RE: Newbie allied observations - 12/11/2006 5:12:01 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Best bet against KBs Zeros is your own medium and heavy bombers. If KB comes a callin' on one of your airfields (not the best use of KB), KB -will- demolish it. But if you have some fighters to escort your medium/heavy bombers and you launch vs. KB, you will (likely) knock down some Zeros with your own fighters and bombers. Don't get me wrong, the Allied losses will be horrendous. But frankly the only way to kill Zeros from KB is thru attrition, or getting a lucky CV strike and killing the Zeros home.

-F-


My experience is that the AI will run *all* its naval forces into harm's way. (In reality, the IJN was expecting into late 1943 that the war would be decided by a big surface battle, and tried to avoid unnecessary casualties to its major combatants in view of that.) Take advantage of that. It doesn't take too many bomb hits to degrade the KB markedly.


AI plays such that I've never tried any of the so-called 'gamey' training techniques. I just let all bombers go on naval attack with minimal escort. They avoid large concentrations of CAP and practice on transports at 5000 ft. No shortage of targets around Malaya so they get to 60-70 range within a month.

Beaufort put a torp in Kaga last night *yay*. Only cost me a dozen P40s I will not weep for her (esp cause she'll live). And 30 Betties took advantage of a PM break in the weather to put 3 torps in POW from 800 miles away.

The game is a logistical dance anyways, so if there's ever a version 2 it might not be crazy to create some separate supply accounting for the 'special' munitions like torpedoes, mines, large calibre naval shells - instead of just basing it on port/af size.

Would love to try this PBEM but no way could I guarantee playing someone for the duration yet. Maybe someday...

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 20
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