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Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges

 
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Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/9/2006 3:29:28 PM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		Just been building a scenario and noticed that the Japanese Arty seemed to have wrong range values. Attached a list of what seems to be in error.

ID# __ Name ____________ real ______ MaxRng ____MaxRng
________________________ range(m) __ Current __ Correct
31 ___ 70mm Type 92 IG __ 2800 _____ 207 ______ 207
32 ___ 75mm Type41 IG ___ 6300 _____ 120 ______ 216
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 8250 _____ 216 ______ 221
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 11500 ____ 216 ______ 229
34 ___ 75mm T94 Mtn Hw __ 8300 _____ 231 ______ 221
44 ___ 75mm Type 90 _____ 13890 ____ 160 ______ 235
66 ___ 150mm Type 4 Hw __ 8800 _____ 225 ______ 222
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H __ 10800 ____ 208 ______ 227
71 ___ 105mm Type 92 ____ 18200 ____ 223 ______ 246
184 __ 150mm Type96 Mt __ 11900 ____ 224 ______ 230
223 __ 150mm Type 38 H __ 5890 _____ 224 ______ 215

All range values were obtained from
Taki’s Home Page - IMPERIAL JAPANESE ARMY PAGE
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/
Post #: 1
RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/9/2006 3:55:50 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		I dont think we changed any ranges of the Japanese guns from what they were in 8.3
nice chart tho, I can use it.
except for you cannot enter a value over 231, so anything over that wont work


< Message edited by Alby -- 12/9/2006 4:08:11 PM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/9/2006 5:17:41 PM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

I dont think we changed any ranges of the Japanese guns from what they were in 8.3
nice chart tho, I can use it.
except for you cannot enter a value over 231, so anything over that wont work



Wow.. BUT you can enter the MAX value of 231.
Besides that has little to do with some of these odd values currently there.




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Post #: 3
RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/9/2006 5:30:02 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: omegaall


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

I dont think we changed any ranges of the Japanese guns from what they were in 8.3
nice chart tho, I can use it.
except for you cannot enter a value over 231, so anything over that wont work



Wow.. BUT you can enter the MAX value of 231.
Besides that has little to do with some of these odd values currently there.


HUH?
thats what I said...Max value of 231 is the highest you can enter.

those 'odd values' were not put in there by US, they have been there for who knows how long.




< Message edited by Alby -- 12/9/2006 5:39:27 PM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/9/2006 5:54:46 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		While we certainly tried to fix every error that we knew of, we didn't do a complete weapon-by-weapon review for accuracy; that would have taken a dedicated team, which we didn't have. There are probably many more "errors" in the weapon data sections, and some are simply "fudges" due to lack of adequate real data.

One thing to keep in mind: any range value of 213 or higher is 100 hexes or more, sufficient to reach most of the map. Offmap artillery units are assumed to be 3 hexes beyond the mapedge, regardless of the type. Range values of 220 and higher are only necessary for the 'counterbattery' action, which doesn't work very well to begin with.

Of course, we would certainly like to get the most correct data into the OOBs, but this task is made more difficult by the simple fact that we don't know where all the errors are.


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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 12:55:34 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		There are only 2 guns here that have a range in game terms greater then the max value of 231. That is a minor point BUT their current in game range is way too low to even suggest historical ratings.
44 ___ 75mm Type 90 _____ 13890 ____ 160 ______ 235
71 ___ 105mm Type 92 ____ 18200 ____ 223 ______ 246

Not to mention the fact that this gun,105mm Type 91, has a current in game range less than the standard 75mm Type 38 Howitzer.
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H __ 10800 ____ 208 ______ 227
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 8250 _____ 216 ______ 221
This is the howitzer version in the Enhanced FV.1 MOD.

Though there is also the 75mm Type 38 Improved Howitzer with the greater range not in the MOD.
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 11500 ____ 216 ______ 229

Then there is the 150mm Type 38 Howitzer with a real range way less than the one in the game.
223 __ 150mm Type 38 H __ 5890 _____ 224 ______ 215

Clouding the issue re game rnges and counter battery fire, etc, does not alter the fact that the ranges need correcting in your published MOD.

As for finding the correct values the web site
Taki’s Home Page - IMPERIAL JAPANESE ARMY PAGE
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/
Has been about for a while and was published here way back.
Not new at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

While we certainly tried to fix every error that we knew of, we didn't do a complete weapon-by-weapon review for accuracy; that would have taken a dedicated team, which we didn't have. There are probably many more "errors" in the weapon data sections, and some are simply "fudges" due to lack of adequate real data.

One thing to keep in mind: any range value of 213 or higher is 100 hexes or more, sufficient to reach most of the map. Offmap artillery units are assumed to be 3 hexes beyond the mapedge, regardless of the type. Range values of 220 and higher are only necessary for the 'counterbattery' action, which doesn't work very well to begin with.

Of course, we would certainly like to get the most correct data into the OOBs, but this task is made more difficult by the simple fact that we don't know where all the errors are.



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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 1:34:40 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Were these brought up in the OOB Project discussion forums during the year that they were up?

Also, I primarily use websites for research, and find that they are often completely different from one to another. It may be possible that reference sources used by whichever OOB team(s) assigned these values before we got to them had different listings for the stats of these guns. I briefly perused the site you listed, but did not see a listing of his resources for the information. I am not doubting their accuracy, but what is to say that they are accurate, or if another reference site's/book's numbers are?

< Message edited by Goblin -- 12/10/2006 1:44:06 AM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 1:38:06 AM   
Goblin


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From: Erie,Pa. USA
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quote:



Clouding the issue re game rnges and counter battery fire, etc, does not alter the fact that the ranges need correcting in your published MOD.



Just saw this. You did see the part where the ranges were set before the Mod, correct?

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 2:28:46 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		OK, given that hex ranges are divided by 4, the errors you mention, Omegaall, with one exception, are off by 1 or 2 hexes (50-100 yards). That is , IF the quoted info is correct.

I have no problem with adjusting my personal OOBs to reflect this, but in the long run it may make little to no difference in weapons effectiveness for game purposes.

In changing the 75mm IG range, prices increase from 3-5 points. Now, this could affect the AI purchases, but how dramatic the change is, has yet to be seen.

Taki WAS a contributing researcher to prior Japanese OOB updates, so don't blame the Enhanced Mod crew for basically keeping the Jap OOB as it was. I still have his notes from one of the old updates.

Personal note: I always thought that the Japanese AI had WAY too much arty, especially in the early PTO battles, so maybe these changes will do some good.



< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 12/10/2006 3:19:15 AM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 3:24:26 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		Well as far as the OOB project is concerned it got cut off very quickly as the various multi mods came out. But from what I could see the whole project never seemed finished. This would be an example of such.
The delivery of the Enhanced MOD seems to almost stop future correction. NOTE almost I did not say completely.

Also you want reference well a basic reference is the following:
FM E 101-10 ( Staff Officers Field Manual: Enemy Forces Organization, Technical and Logistical Data ), 20 Oct 1942
This some of the data from the above FM reference.

Weapon ___________________________ max ranges (yds) ____ max ranges (m)
75 mm Gun M1906 Type 38 __________ 9000 - 11800 ________ 8230 - 10790
75 mm Mtn Gun M94 (1934) Type 94 __ 7500 - 8750 ________ 6858 - 8001
105 mm Gun M1932 __________________ 12000 - 20000 ______ 10973 - 18288
105 mm Gun M1925 Type 14 __________ 11000 - 14000 ______ 10058 - 12802
105 mm How M91 (1931) Type 91 _____ 11500 ______________ 10516
150 mm Gun M1929 __________________ 27340 ______________ 25000
These are close to the data on the web reference and if you go double check you will possibly find the web data to be more accurate as its derived after the event

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 3:46:56 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Omegaall, thanks for the references, but you gotta keep in mind that this is a game, NOT a simulation. Inserting absolute values in the OOBs do not always work properly with the code.

Now, when it comes to arty ranges, you gotta keep in mind the maximum width of the displayed battlefield. As for 75mm arty in general, I think they are useless as off-board support. On-board, they have some use. Frankly, I don't like buying 75s for on-board indirect fire, even though the US Marines used them as such until 1944. I prefer mortars. On the other hand, the Germans and Japanese used their 75mm IGs in a direct-fire role many times, sometimes even against enemy armor. That must be taken into account.

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 3:57:16 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Excuse me, omegaall, but since when did you get appointed "Lord High SPWAW Decider"????

Who are you to tell ME that I must make changes to the published Mod? You have a lot of nerve, buddy...where is YOUR Mod, then?

You know, you and some others that stop by every now and again and drop your little "snowflakes" about the game and the "problems" in someone else's work are beginning to piss me off. You don't like the Mod, DON'T FRIGGIN USE IT!!

I spent a bloody YEAR or more doing research for the Enhanced Mod; but I didn't touch the Japanese OOB because NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING FULL OF ERRORS FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS!!! It was open for discussion for over a year at the Depot, and very few mistakes were ever pointed out. Those that were got corrected.

Now you come along and make demands about some errors that outside of the counterbattery fire process won't mean a hill of beans to gameplay.

Well, as far as I am concerned you can just Piss off!!


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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 4:16:17 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		C'mon, guys, let's back up and look at this. Omegaall, why in the world did you wait until NOW to demand changes? Where were you when these issues were being discussed?

You can simply do what I did, and make the adjustments in your OOB set.

Let me remind you of this -- I recommended to the Enhanced team to leave the Japanese alone, as far as weapons values were concerned. These are the guys I most often play AGAINST, and I thought they were damn good. I focused upon the AI selection schemes, which were excellent, so I did not personally reaudit the entire OOB. If you wanna blame someone for an oversight, then blame ME.

In all of this, there are just two units in the Japanese OOB that will have slight price adjustments, so this is a minor issue. In the long run, it's not gonna change the results of anyone's campaigns or battles.





< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 12/10/2006 4:36:42 AM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 4:37:06 AM   
Goblin


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From: Erie,Pa. USA
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quote:

Well as far as the OOB project is concerned it got cut off very quickly as the various multi mods came out. But from what I could see the whole project never seemed finished.


The project forums were up for 1 year. Flash is correct: there was not much input on the Japanese OOB's. Posting this info then would have been very useful.

The various mods used the info posted in those forums, and most blended into the ENH version. Therefore, the info in those forums effectively became ENH.

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 4:46:26 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline 		First as I said I noticed some odd ranges when making a scenario.

this was with these 2 guns and it did not make sense.
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H __ 10800 ____ 208
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 8250 _____ 216
So I did soem checking on them and also teh others.

So Flashy since I am NOT being as you imply "Lord High SPWAW Decider"????

And Since you are apparently official forum person to "tell the guy to Piss Off", I can see any level of discussion here is irrelevent as I have seen from some of your posts.
So since this is so important keep your initial values and since I am not welcome here I will not bother again.

Thank for you kind friendliness, NOT!.


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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 6:31:04 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
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From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Bye

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 7:08:26 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		WTF is the matter with this place lately?

As of late I do rather think that the Ghosts of Steel Panthers Past, Present and Future need to come a calling, in all due haste mind you, to spread forth Holiday understanding and goodwill among our apparently somewhat merryless community.

Folks...sometimes we forget just how much personal free time was surrendered by others among us, just for the love of a game and its community. As in real life that type of dedication is sometimes overlooked or taken for granted by those of us who should know better. Sometimes even without being aware of it we tend to forget to say "thanks" often enough or maybe watch just how we phrase our words when pointing out problematic issues or raising an objection. It's not a call for dreaded Political Correctness...it's just a call for common courtesy and due respect on both sides of the fence.

Anyway...just thought I'd share that Holiday Fuzzy Feeling with everyone and maybe buy some time for the cooling off period to begin. If this doesn't work I'll pass out hand grenades and baseball bats.

Thank you for listening. This has been a public service message from Orzel "Bob Cratchit" Bialy reminding you all that Santa is watching so you better behave. That means knocking off those late night stints with that bottle of hand lotion Gob.

Peace Out.




< Message edited by Orzel Bialy -- 12/10/2006 7:17:38 AM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 7:15:14 AM   
Goblin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy That means knocking off those late night stints with that bottle of hand lotion Gob.




I would reply in depth, but my hands are slippery. I'll deal with you later.


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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 8:04:23 AM   
KG Erwin


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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		After all this, I've lately been tempted to "go German" again, crank up "Erika" and pop open a bottle of Beck's.

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 8:10:56 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		I hate to see people argue over problems that have simple cures.

1st, Matrix has modified the game to ver 8.403. (With input from gammers)

2nd, The Enhanced Mod is from the SPWAW Depot group. (not part of MATRIX, but with input from MATRIX)

It is not MANDATORY that any gammer use the Matrix updates or the Enhanced Update(s) to play the game. Yes, there are some mistakes in BOTH versions and they are not denied by either MATRIX or the DEPOT.

If anyone dosen't like the OOBs, SHPs, or whatever do what some of the gammers have done, write your own, the greatest thing about this game is its installed Editor. (I'm to dense personally to understand it). After you write your own pass them on to anyone who PBEM with you. The writers of both of the latest updates, Matrix and Depot, did so of their own free will, used their time and effort to improve a game that has a loyal following. Arguing amongst each other won't solve anything. Constructive criticism is always welcomed.

Final Word is....If you don't like it, change it, or don't use it......(I know what your going to say "Hush now Chief")

Chief Hushing away now




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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 9:12:55 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Well, you are absolutely right, Chief. I've taken the existing work and further modified it for my own use in the long campaign format. Every gamer can do this.

All you gotta do is keep backups for playing the existing scenarios and Mega-Campaigns, and you are good to go.

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 9:20:45 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		Did anyone seriously think we went through, one by one, and checked the ranges of each and every weapon in the game, then tried to make sure they were correct???
My God we would still be working on it!!!

The OOB project actually more or less Turned into "Enhanced"
I guarantee 99% of what was voted on in there is in Enhanced.
We corrected tons of inconsistencies, fixed what we knew about, Fixed what got voted on, and fixed what we stumbled across.
We certainly did not have the time or the resources to check each and every weapon in the frickin game, that have been messed with for 10 years by countless numbers of OOB teams and others.
over the years it appears things got changed in one oob, but corresponding units in other oobs did not get the same changes.
we found this kind of thing hundreds of times and fixed them.
Plus, everyone over the years tried to input thier own take on how they thought some unit or weapon should work, as opposed to knowing how the game code was meant to work with them.
things like increasing Fire control values all over the place because they thought that Tank 'A' should be getting more hits, than Tank 'B', or some such nonsense.
We were fortunate enough to have Mike Wood help us, because he too had become frustrated at how the OObs over the years had been tweaked and tweaked until they had become a mess.

Look folks, we busted our asses on this thing, sometimes 16 hours a day, for months and months.
and are still fixing things here and there that we find or someone points out.
We think we came up with the cleanest set of oobs since Version 1 of SPWAW came out!!
None of you really knows how screwed up the oobs really were when we started on this, unless you have spent about 6 months to a year going through them for hours upon hours everyday.
Hell I think Flash counted over 1000 emails from me while this was going on.
Plus we also dealt with the ratings for months as well.
I sure dont mind the "hey I noticed such and such looks wrong" , or " Could you take a look at..."
but showing up once every few months to complain and act like some error you found is something we did, or something we just blatantly ignored or missed because we are stupid is just too much....

Happy Holidays








< Message edited by Alby -- 12/10/2006 9:31:38 AM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 3:55:51 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Lol, Alby is right. I went through every damn MG in the game to make sure there were no more of them with PEN values, and just found another one the other day. And that's something we were looking for. Really tough to just check every number in the game.



Goblin

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 6:23:16 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		I'm not averse to cleaning up mistakes; nor do I have a problem admitting when I make mistakes myself (and there are a few in there). If errors are pointed out in a respectful manner, and requests are made for them to be investigated, I'll be happy to take a look at them. But don't come in here claiming that some website has the correct numbers; web resources are useful for some research, but they are not replacements for well-documented books written and compiled by noted authorites on the subject. The numbers quoted in the above posts come from undocumented sources and there is no bibliography to check the factual accuracy of the data.

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 6:50:40 PM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		My source material for some of the Japanese equipment: Handbook on Japanese Military Forces, U.S. War Department Technical Manual TM-E 30-480, 1 October 1944. This source supersedes the one quoted above from 1942, and is derived from tests conducted using captured equipment during the war.

Ranges for the indicated weapons, and comparison to the claimed actual ranges:

ID# __ Name ____________Claimed range(m) __ Range from my source
31 ___ 70mm Type 92 IG _____ 2800 __________ 2812
32 ___ 75mm Type41 IG ______ 6300 __________7132
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw _____ 8250 _________ 8350
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw _____ 11500 ________ 11600
34 ___ 75mm T94 Mtn Hw _____ 8300 __________ 8000
44 ___ 75mm Type 90 ________ 13890 _________ 15000
66 ___ 150mm Type 4 Hw _____ 8800 __________ 7000
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H _____ 10800 _________ 11500
71 ___ 105mm Type 92 _______ 18200 _________ 18700
184 __ 150mm Type96 Mt _____ 11900 _________ 10000
223 __ 150mm Type 38 H _____ 5890 __________ 7000

None of the ranges are identical; the closest is the Type 92 IG, with a difference of 12 meters.

This shows the level of difficulty in verifying gun ranges; sources differ, calculations are made using different formulas, ammunition used is different. Comparison of numerous sources is vital; many times the choice is to take an average of all the data, especially when the data are extremely different.

And for everyone's information, I have been to Taki's site numerous times, and use it as one source for comparing data. But the key point here is, there has to be a known error or question about a unit/weapon before we take a look at it. Since we never heard any questions about these artillery pieces during the 1 year+ we were working on this Mod, we didn't devote any time to looking for them. Had they been raised, they would have been addessed. Even now, the errors could have been pointed out in a polite manner. But the demanding of corrections, and the dismissal of some important game mechanics information (a value of 231 is the maximum that can be entered for range) irks me, and I won't sit back and take it. I am usually polite and respectful of all members wh post here, but this crossed the line.



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Post #: 25
RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 9:38:29 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		You're not polite and respectful to me.






Goblin

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 10:57:09 PM   
KG Erwin


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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

You're not polite and respectful to me.






Goblin


It's OK, Goblin -- I'LL still respect you in the morning. Heh heh...


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Post #: 27
RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 11:12:07 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
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From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		That's because Kev is a sailor. They are all alike.


Goblin- A Goblin is not just a piece of meat

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/10/2006 11:31:40 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

That's because Kev is a sailor. They are all alike.


Goblin- A Goblin is not just a piece of meat


Right. Marines aren't selfish. At least I'll give you a "pogey-bait" candy bar before I share you with the rest of the squad.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 12/10/2006 11:46:28 PM >

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RE: Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges - 12/11/2006 12:39:00 AM   
Riun T

 

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Status: offline 		Gunny, u quit bugging Gobby and turn your mines back on and get some DAR's done!!

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