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Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:21:30 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		We'll start small with the Bonin Islands.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:22:51 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Continuing with the southern portion of the Japanese Island in the China Sea.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:26:20 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here is the Korean Peninsula - from Peking to Fusan.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:30:27 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The heart of Japan (zoom level 5 - out of 8). Patrice hasn't had a chance to make the small map data edits that I know he wants to do. Those will straighten out some of the rail lines and tweak the placement of the icons and names. The hex Nagasaki is in needs to be redone by Rob - the water should be colored as coastal, not all-sea.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:32:27 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Similar to the last screen shot, but at zoom level 6. These are the important hexes in Japan - all those major ports.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:34:05 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The northern portion of Japan, plus Vladivostok.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:35:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The Sea of Japan, showing the major ports.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 2:37:34 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		8th and last in the series. An overview of the newest map segment provided by Rob.




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RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 3:02:02 AM   
MilRevKo

 

Posts: 293
Joined: 11/8/2006
From: Main Line, PA
Status: offline 		The map's are amazing.  One of the great aesthetics of WIF was too see the map's with the counters and so forth. . .
It looks like MWIF will be amazing also.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 9
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 3:04:50 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Naha is the port on Okinawa. It is on the Southwest side of the island the map shows it on the Northeast side of the island.

Link to: United States Military Academy: Atlases

< Message edited by Mziln -- 12/14/2006 5:33:39 AM >

(in reply to MilRevKo)
Post #: 10
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 4:09:00 AM   
trees

 

Posts: 175
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Status: offline 		do they really call them the "Japanese Alps" ?

the end-game in Japan will certainly end quicker now

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Post #: 11
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 7:35:28 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
the end-game in Japan will certainly end quicker now

Why ?

(in reply to trees)
Post #: 12
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 7:49:04 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
do they really call them the "Japanese Alps" ?

Seems like they do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Alps

(in reply to trees)
Post #: 13
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 9:53:39 AM   
christo

 

Posts: 99
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From: adelaide, australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

do they really call them the "Japanese Alps" ?

the end-game in Japan will certainly end quicker now


Apparently it is the "Japan Alps" never the "Japanese Alps". Not quite sure why but I was led to believe it is a considerable blunder to call it the wrong name.

Christo

(in reply to trees)
Post #: 14
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 10:33:51 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Funny, I was just reading a book from a German traveller, geograph and map-maker in China around 1900. He was wondering, why all the locals do have different names for "their part" of a certain river.

The three Japanese names for these three mountain ranges probably just reflect local oriented feudal realities in "pre-modern" Japan.

The naming "Alps" reflects Western gaze, categorizing and thinking about geographical formations.

All this map naming for MWIF is a far more complex issue than I thought before.

But I really do love the map for all the detailed names and the forum based process of decision making.

Thank's for the good job, Patrice!

Regards

P.S.: (just for information, without any personal agenda):
Taiwan and Korea are labelled as "Jap". I know, if you start to change it into "Jap occupied", it will be like the Pandoras'thing, because there are many other colonies in the game.

But these details sometimes do matter: Hearts of Iron was banned in China for it allowed independant Tibet, Xinjiang (Chinese Turkestan) and Taiwan and Manchuria under Japanese control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Iron

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 15
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 10:46:24 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Funny, I was just reading a book from a German traveller, geograph and map-maker in China around 1900. He was wondering, why all the locals do have different names for "their part" of a certain river.

The three Japanese names for these three mountain ranges probably just reflect local oriented feudal realities in "pre-modern" Japan.

The naming "Alps" reflects Western gaze, categorizing and thinking about geographical formations.

All this map naming for MWIF is a far more complex issue than I thought before.

But I really do love the map for all the detailed names and the forum based process of decision making.

Thank's for the good job, Patrice!

Regards

P.S.: (just for information, without any personal agenda):
Taiwan and Korea are labelled as "Jap". I know, if you start to change it into "Jap occupied", it will be like the Pandoras'thing, because there are many other colonies in the game.

But these details sometimes do matter: Hearts of Iron was banned in China for it allowed independant Tibet, Xinjiang (Chinese Turkestan) and Taiwan and Manchuria under Japanese control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Iron


The notation (Ja) and (Kor), etc. reflects possession at the time of the start of the Global War scenario. It is used to enable players to know who controls which islands (e.g., it is used in the Med. too). Each hex also has an underlying 'owner' as designated by the country onwership number assigned in the map TER.CSV file. Lastly, at the start of each scenario, possession of individual hexes is defined to reflect changes due to conquest. This is most common in Russia and China, but also occurs in Europe and Africa.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 16
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 10:50:39 AM   
ppglaf

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 9/27/2006
Status: offline 		Hi,

I see some changes I want to comment. Sorry in advance for my poor english.

As japan player (in the boardgame) I use to put some planes in Fukuoka to get quick access to Sea of Japan and Osaka to get quick access to China Sea, trying to cover japan convoys.

From that bases I can support the other if necessary, but it costs two points more to arrive to deep see hexes.

I think it's different with new maps. Fukuoka is a better place to put planes in because it's easy to reach both sea zones and Osaka is better now for Sea of Japan than China Sea.

Are you testing playability with this map changes?

Cheers.

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 17
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 10:51:50 AM   
SemperAugustus

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		Some comments:

Sadoshima -> Sado (shima in this case means island, not a part of the name in this case)
Cheju-do -> Cheju (do is island in Korean)

Iwo is actually correctly romanized Io but in this case Iwo probably better.
Volcano Islands in Japanese is Kazan Retto
Kita-Iwo -> Kitaiwojima
Iwo Jima -> Iwojima
Minami Iwo ->Minamiiwojima

Bonin Islands in Japanese is Ogasawara Islands
Retto means island chain, so the names are pretty inconsistent, you need to choose which one to use.

Fusan -> Pusan (Old korean romanization), Busan (new korean romanization)
Wensan ->Wonsan
Hokkaido Map around Nemuro is severly distorted

Port Arthur -> Dalien (probably discussed already though)

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 18
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 12:02:36 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Well, for languages with characters there are different transcriptions or romaizations. And it's quite difficult to make naming consistent.

1. Indigenuos geographical namings, like JAP shima (island), CHIN hu (Lake) or kiang (river). Map is not consistent, sometimes the geographical meanings are added (like shima) , sometimes they are ommitted (like kiang), sometimes they are translated (like Lake for hu).
It's probably a good idea, to make the names recognizable for the "average" player. (No Pearl instead of Pearl Harbor)

2. Writing the syllables together or in two words? Different transcriptions, different solutions (sometimes even with "-").

It's probably a good idea, to make the names readable, which is a votum against long names full of vowels.

3. For Pusan and Wonsan I agree. For Dalien not: For the city additionally I found the Japanese naming Dairen (Chinese: Dalien, Talien, Dalian). For the harbor additionally I found Ryojun (naming under the Japanese occupation).
So we have different names and even transcriptions for the different periods of ownership. And it's a question of perspective: Based on the "conquerors' right", it probably should be Ryojun (which is not very known) or Dairen (commonly used). But on the other hand Port Arthur was still popular in WW2.

Regards



< Message edited by wosung -- 12/14/2006 12:23:18 PM >

(in reply to SemperAugustus)
Post #: 19
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 1:08:54 PM   
trees

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
the end-game in Japan will certainly end quicker now

Why ?


The Japanese army is small and Japan just got bigger. It will be easier to get on-shore and there are more hex-sides for the Japanese factory cities, so more force can be applied against them.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 20
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 3:14:13 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: christo
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

do they really call them the "Japanese Alps" ?

the end-game in Japan will certainly end quicker now


Apparently it is the "Japan Alps" never the "Japanese Alps". Not quite sure why but I was led to believe it is a considerable blunder to call it the wrong name.

Christo

Where does this come from, that the it is a "considerable blunder" to call it the "Japanese Alps" ?
Wikipedia doesn't talk about "Japan Alps".
If I type "Japan Alps" i'm redirected to "Japanese Alps".

Isn't there some Japanese here that could clear this up ?

I do not want to upset anyone, on the contrary, I would like to make people realize that we have devoted an equal care to all world parts.

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 21
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 4:28:15 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
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Status: offline 		I'm no Japanese, but as far I can see, this was a Western label stuck to 3 mountain ranges with different Japanese names.

I don't know if the label is quite common in Japan. But according to the Japanese Wikipedia it does exist: 日本アルプス

This would sound something like "Nihon Arupusu" (with the "u" letter not really pronounced). BTW the first two characters are Kanji (Chinese characters) and the rest are katakana sylables, which are used for foreign sounds and words (e.g. "neurose").

And for "Japan/Japanese Alps": In Japanese language normally there is simply no difference between "Japan" and "Japanese", both is
日本. It depends on its' place in the sentence.

So on the map it could be "Japanese Alps".

Regards


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 22
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 5:07:40 PM   
SemperAugustus

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		The Japan Alps were named by William Gowland in 1881 (according to the Japanese sites I can find), who thought that they looked like the Alps. To make a long story short they simply didn't have a name for the full mountain chain before then and the name stuck.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 23
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 5:10:37 PM   
SemperAugustus

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		How do you want the islands then? xxx Shima/ xxx Retto or xxx Island/xxx Islands. I read Japanese and live in Japan, so its no biggie to ask around what is more common.


BTW Should the Korean town names be the Japanese names or the Korean ones? In that case the new Romanization of Korean or the old romanization of Korean?

< Message edited by SemperAugustus -- 12/14/2006 5:22:57 PM >

(in reply to SemperAugustus)
Post #: 24
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 6:00:25 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		For the Japanese names, personally I would vote for the more known variants in the West, like Bonin islands, Iwo Jima, Tsushima and so on (even if it's not totally consistent)

For the Korean names I would vote for the old Korean romanization (Pusan...)

Patrice? The others?

(in reply to SemperAugustus)
Post #: 25
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 6:11:45 PM   
Gendarme

 

Posts: 50
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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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Wow. Compliments to all for the hard work put in -- the artist, map labeller, etc.

Yes, Japan has gotten bigger and still has the same amount of land units, but with all those mountains and rivers it would not be easy to fight through. That's the first thing that cropped into my mind, anyway.

And again, I put in a call for the option to order paper copies of these maps. regardless of how big they may be. They are too nice to not be used. This is something I would gladly pay extra for in addition to Matrix Wif. Especially since the game is (tentatively) not scheduled to hit the shelves until '08.

Anthony DeChristopher

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 26
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 8:17:52 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
Wow. Compliments to all for the hard work put in -- the artist, map labeller, etc.

Yes, Japan has gotten bigger and still has the same amount of land units, but with all those mountains and rivers it would not be easy to fight through. That's the first thing that cropped into my mind, anyway.

And again, I put in a call for the option to order paper copies of these maps. regardless of how big they may be. They are too nice to not be used. This is something I would gladly pay extra for in addition to Matrix Wif. Especially since the game is (tentatively) not scheduled to hit the shelves until '08.

Anthony DeChristopher

Thanks. There have been, and continue to be, many contributors to the map.

A printed map would be difficult because of its size. For example, one half of the WIF FE European map is 32 hexes by 49 hexes or 1568 hexes total. Let's call it 1600. MWIF's map is 195 by 360 = 70,200 hexes. That comes out to roughly 44 of the single page WIF FE maps. It's possible to trim some hexes off the top (but not the bottom) of the MWIF map as being mostly water and ice. That would reduce it to, say, 40 pages. Even if we reduced the scale for each hex to 1/4 size (1/2 the height and 1/2 the width) we still would have 10 pages to print. That would require a lot of surface area. At one time I estimated a 7 foot high cylinder with a 6 foot diameter would work. Who would have any place to put that remains a mystery though.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 27
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 9:59:25 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

How do you want the islands then? xxx Shima/ xxx Retto or xxx Island/xxx Islands. I read Japanese and live in Japan, so its no biggie to ask around what is more common.

Yes please, ase around what is the most common.

Also, all over the map, I prefered not to write "Island" when there is only 1 island (example : "Guadalcanal", and not "Guadalcanal Island"), and if there are lots of islands with 1 name that I can use instead of naming one of the islands, I prefer to write "Islands" (example : "Izu Islands").

For Japan, I understood that "Shima" meant "Island", and that "Retto" meant "Islands" or "Group of Islands".
I wondered whether I could remove the "shima" part of the name or not, because of Tsushima for example. So I left it most of the time (Mukoshima, Chichishima, etc...) as I found it on most maps.
For the "Retto", I liked to have the Japanese home islands using Japanese names like Retto. I should have wrote "Izu Retto" in this regards too, but I overlooked that one.
Now, if everyone prefers to get rid of it and put "Islands", I'm OK too. We would have "Chichishima Islands" instead of "Chichishima Retto".

quote:

BTW Should the Korean town names be the Japanese names or the Korean ones? In that case the new Romanization of Korean or the old romanization of Korean?

I prefer to use Seoul, Pusan, Wonsan, Pyongyang.

(in reply to SemperAugustus)
Post #: 28
RE: Japan Map - 12/14/2006 10:29:21 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

For the Japanese names, personally I would vote for the more known variants in the West, like Bonin islands, Iwo Jima, Tsushima and so on (even if it's not totally consistent)

For the Korean names I would vote for the old Korean romanization (Pusan...)

Patrice? The others?

Yes, that would be my opinion as well.

For the Volcano Islands, I prefer "Volcano Islands" instead of "Kazan Retto".
Same for the Bonin Islands, I prefer "Bonin Islands" instead of "Ogasawara Islands".

For the names of the Islands within those chains, I like to have them displayed, as some are famous.
Iwo Jima is the most famous, and I prefer it in 2 words.
I also like
- Chichi-jima Islands,
- Haha-jima Islands,
- Muko-jima Islands.
I'm ok to get rif of the "shima" here. I don't know really if there should be a "-" of nothing, or a blank space between the first part of the name and the "jima".

For the Volcano Islands, if I understood correctly, you advise me to put
- Kita-Iwo -> Kitaiwojima
- Iwo Jima -> Iwojima. I do not like it very much without the blank space.
- Minami Iwo ->Minamiiwojima

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 29
RE: Japan Map - 12/15/2006 1:05:21 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		I would also go for the blank spaces, like "Iwo Jima". And would leave away the "-".

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 30
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