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Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/10/2006 7:20:28 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		I would appreciate any feedback, AARs, or play test of Ardennes 1944, posted on both The Wargamer and The Strategist web sites. It is primarily regimental level, 2.5 km per hex and 60 half-day turns. Although it is playable as PBEM as well as Allies vs PO, my personal playtesting was German vs PO.
I plan to do some minor revisions by 16 Dec...
Rob
Post #: 1
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/10/2006 7:23:29 AM   
TOCarroll


Posts: 215
Joined: 3/28/2005
From: College Station, Texas
Status: offline 		Great Game. In my opinion, it favors the Americans, but only marginally. I am not the most experienced player.

_____________________________

"Ideological conviction will trump logistics, numbers, and firepower every time"
J. Stalin, 1936-1941...A. Hitler, 1933-1945. W. Churchill (very rarely, and usually in North Africa). F. D. Roosvelt (smart enough to let the generals run the war).

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 2
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/12/2006 7:21:56 AM   
Menschenfresser

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Some time ago I played against the Allied PO set to strong up to...say...T7 or 8. Smashed through at the appropriate places, but didn't have the spare divisions to control the ant remnants left behind by the advancing spearheads. This really tied up my artillery in the middle when several of the regiments I'd left behind to clean up evaporated. I had to pull back several more from the front lines. This allowed the US 7th Arm to set up shop right in the middle of the map. Without arty, I couldn't crush the forward defenders while they were weak. My panzers cut right through the center of the map like a long finger. The PO moved in forces from the north, but chose to attack the relatively static front at the northern end of the map. After several turns I saw some strength arriving in the center to slice off the finger. But the PO made no attempt to stop the two pz divisions pushing to the western end of the map. I took Liege and several units reached the western end of the map. The same in the south...I just circumvented the US reinforcements. This is when I stopped the game. I'm not sure I could hold what I took, but I was gaining enough permanent victory points so that it might not matter.


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Make wargames, not war.

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Post #: 3
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/15/2006 6:15:55 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Thanks for the input!
Rob

(in reply to TOCarroll)
Post #: 4
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/15/2006 4:30:29 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Menschenfresser- question for you- you said "some time ago"- are your referring to the older Ardennes 44 or the more recently posted Ardennes 1944?

(in reply to Menschenfresser)
Post #: 5
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/16/2006 3:58:17 AM   
Menschenfresser

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Some weeks ago, I meant. I played v 0.9 designed by you. Got it from the-strategist.

Compared to other bulge scens out there it played pretty well. I've played almost all of them to some degree or another. However, I'd probably have to agree with TOCarroll on it favoring the Americans. If the PO knew how to set up road blocks with relatively few units and diverted some of the northerly reinforcements toward the center, the Germans would not get far. I think most players will have a big problem erradicating the leftover Americans that start up front. There's very little that can be spared to attack these units...much less methodically surround them so they don't dance around. It requires some really smart attack coordination and some lucky retreats to heard the Americans into piles.

Let us know when you get a new version out.


_____________________________

Make wargames, not war.

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Post #: 6
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/16/2006 5:55:36 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Your comments are appreciated.
With regards to your observation concerning the leftover American units- they certainly do cause the Germans problems, but historically that is pretty much what happened. The question is- do they cause more problems than they did historically? (Note that there is a good chance the US 106 Inf Div will surrender as they did historically.)
If we think the Germans do not advance as fast as they did historically we could make the US front line battalions into section icons so they would not subdivide, or we could have them withdrawn from the game at some point. but I found in the game the Germans actually do pretty well the first few turns (the exception is KG Peiper).

(I used Danny Parker (designer of SPI Battles of the Ardennes) book Battle of the Bulge which has a series of operational maps that show positions of Allied and German divisions at two day intervals. I then modified the scenario variable so that the units had a reasonable chance of reaching their historic phase lines.)

I am concerned about the ease at which you said you reached LIEGE (and the west edge of the map). Wow- you must be good! In my hands I could just reach the Meuse River in a couple of places. We may need to beef up the Allies rear area and UK reinforcements.
Rob


(in reply to Menschenfresser)
Post #: 7
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/17/2006 3:26:34 AM   
Menschenfresser

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		I only reached Liege and the western map edge because a) I knew I was playing the PO and b) it moved in its reinforcements behind my leading units. Even if the road was open, I would not do what I did in this game against a human player. This is one of the problems of the PO: it can't deal with units too far beyond the expected line of engagement. If you make a big flank of the POs forces, I've found it will ignore it until it is waaay too late. I do think if I played another 10 turns of your scenario, the PO would have forced me to retreat or cut off my pz divs.

No, I think the US remnants worked well. They were frustrating is all.


_____________________________

Make wargames, not war.

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 8
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/15/2006 6:25:48 AM   
CommC

 

Posts: 467
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: Michigan, USA
Status: offline 		One very minor thing... the German 150 Pz Bde is olive green. Did you want that to be gray like the other German units?



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Post #: 9
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/15/2006 11:58:28 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CommC

One very minor thing... the German 150 Pz Bde is olive green. Did you want that to be gray like the other German units?


I would think this is deliberate- the unit wore American uniforms.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to CommC)
Post #: 10
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/16/2006 12:10:57 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Re: 150th Bde Greif teams. That is correct-the gray on olive color reflects the fact they were teams disguised as US troops. Note that on 19 Dec the Grief team consolidate into a combat brigade(-) in the usual gray color.
Rob

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 11
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/17/2006 1:34:48 AM   
TOCarroll


Posts: 215
Joined: 3/28/2005
From: College Station, Texas
Status: offline 		I am in the midst of a heated PBEM game (Dec 30, 1944). The Germans have been held way short of their histroical advance, but at huge cost in blood, supplies and proficiency to the Americans. Also, a few divisions of mine will not stop reorganizing (I'm sure they do that till the Germans advance past a certain point) long enough to shoot anyone! With the air superiority I have, I hope for a decisive victory, but I lost a lot of troops stopping the advance.

_____________________________

"Ideological conviction will trump logistics, numbers, and firepower every time"
J. Stalin, 1936-1941...A. Hitler, 1933-1945. W. Churchill (very rarely, and usually in North Africa). F. D. Roosvelt (smart enough to let the generals run the war).

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 12
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/27/2007 4:52:52 AM   
Conny D

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		Bumping up this thread hope its not too outdated.
My feedback for your scenario: Great map, IMO the best Ardennes Map of all the various existing maps. But the OOB in parts is incomplete. No German Panzer Div has any recon Bn and no armored engineers at all. That simply sucks. If there is any updated version in the making, i hope this to be fixed. As it is now, the Units are unrealsitic when important subunits missing. Also in the town of Stavelot was a really major fuel dump that Peiper captured. An event should be included for this.

(in reply to TOCarroll)
Post #: 13
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/13/2007 4:40:04 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		CD
Thanks for the feed back on the map. 
With regards to the OOB:
     Note in the latest version of Ardennes 1944, which is included in the latest TOAW III patch,  several that Aufklärung Abteilungen are included in cases where they operated as an significant independent Kampfgruppen (as shown in Cole or Dupay).  In general, however, I have distributed antiaircraft, antitank, engineer, and recon battalions into the respective major maneuver units as tended to be done historically.  I wanted a scenario that avoided the micromanagement of 2000+ units and 123 turns that were in the original Bulge '44 that was including in the orginal Art of War.

(in reply to Conny D)
Post #: 14
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/25/2008 5:39:20 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		For those of you hoping to play the “Bulge” by 16 December, I just posted Ardennes 1944 v1.2 on Games Depot for The Operational Art of War III.
It is battalion/regiments scale, 2.5 km per hex, and 60 twelve-hour turns, so it is a manageable size.

I would appreciate any feedback from you Bulge grognards.


(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 15
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/25/2008 10:02:30 PM   
jmlima

 

Posts: 782
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		One question, is it my impression or having the Volksgrenadier divisions rated at 85% proficiency is a bit too much?... By comparison they are rated the same as the Hitlerjugend...

Also, all German units are with 100% supply, shouldn't they reflect the fact that some units did not start with a full compliment of ammo and fuel? 

And wasn't it concluded somewhere that having units above 85% proficiency makes turn burn more noticable? Or what this compensated via the max rounds per turn thingy?

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 16
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/26/2008 6:58:50 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Your talking about the Directive 21 thread which has been going back and forth for some time now. Reaching an agreement on how much experiance to give a specific unit is always open to discussion. As for the Bulge, as I recall reading the Germans used up the last of their supply reserves in one last desperate attempt to throw the Allies back. So, I guess to answer your question, most if not all units should start off with as little supply as possible and then let it trickle in as the game progresses (my opinion). Cheers

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 17
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/27/2008 2:51:33 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Thanks for your comments.  These are just the kind of thought provoking comments I was looking for.

With regards to unit proficiency, I used the unit evaluations of McDonald’s A Time of Trumpets.  His appendix gives an evaluation of each division.  The 12th SS Panzer Division was “rebuild following heavy losses in Normandy ...but was short of experienced junior officers.”
Most of the volksgrenadier units  are at 70-75% proficiency ; let me know which VG divisions are at 85% unit proficiency and I will check it out.

I will  address the question concerning unit supply in a later reply.
Thanks again!

(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 18
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/27/2008 7:06:56 PM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		My first time in this scenario, and having a blast

I'm currently playing as Allies vs German PO, and am getting a good run for my money.
It's in medium size scenarios with sufficient unit density -like this one- where Elmer can do a lot of damage.

I'm on turn 14 - Dec 22 PM and have lost Sankt Vith, Stavelot and Bastogne (after a stubborn defense by 101 AB and whatever was available)
There's Germans in Houffalize and approaching La Roche. In the south they captured Martelange.
German units threatening Eupen have been surrounded.
I re-entered Ettelbruck but lack enough units there to seriously squeeze out the southern German flank

Reinforcements are starting to flow in more freely, but the offensive isn't contained yet

I've attached my sal file
After downloading change the extension TXT to ZIP and unzip

Solid scenario but IMHO the Northeastern flank around Schmidt could use some German screening units as I am able to wander behind German lines too easy... Some constraint is needed when facing Elmer

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The TOAW Redux Dude

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 19
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/28/2008 9:05:03 AM   
jmlima

 

Posts: 782
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Thanks for your comments.  These are just the kind of thought provoking comments I was looking for.

With regards to unit proficiency, I used the unit evaluations of McDonald’s A Time of Trumpets.  His appendix gives an evaluation of each division.  The 12th SS Panzer Division was “rebuild following heavy losses in Normandy ...but was short of experienced junior officers.”
Most of the volksgrenadier units  are at 70-75% proficiency ; let me know which VG divisions are at 85% unit proficiency and I will check it out.

I will  address the question concerning unit supply in a later reply.
Thanks again!


Well, we must be talking about different versions then. I'm talking about the one that came with the latest patch. In that one, the first three Volks divisions (as you list them on the formation editor) are all 85%.

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 20
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/28/2008 7:54:32 PM   
Shawkhan

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 3/1/2006
Status: offline 		...Being a purist, I have duly downloaded the new Ardennes scenario, but refuse to play it through until December 16. ;) I just need the wintry ambience to properly set the mood. Will be happy to deliver my impressions after that date.

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 21
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/29/2008 8:46:15 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		I was referring to the just version I just posted v1.2 on Games Depot (the link is listed on the TOAW forum.
robert

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 22
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 11/29/2008 9:02:57 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

My first time in this scenario, and having a blast

I'm currently playing as Allies vs German PO, and am getting a good run for my money.
It's in medium size scenarios with sufficient unit density -like this one- where Elmer can do a lot of damage.

Silvanski,
Coming from a master, I consider that quite a compliment! I did all of the game testing from the German side, so it is good to hear the Allies perspective.
thanks!
Robert

(in reply to Silvanski)
Post #: 23
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/2/2008 5:58:23 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawkhan

...Being a purist, I have duly downloaded the new Ardennes scenario, but refuse to play it through until December 16. ;)




Downloading now!

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Post #: 24
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/2/2008 8:32:13 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		I downloaded the scenario and gave it a 2-3 turn spin before stopping. So far it looks much easier to play than other versions. Fun gaming for the German player until the allies catch up.

(in reply to invernomuto)
Post #: 25
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/4/2008 2:03:14 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		Just a quick comment here....

IMO, batallion level games for WW2 are nice.... because divisions were made up of regiments and separate, 'divisional level' batallions (with some companies). But, the regiments were in turn composed of batallions so.... if you have everything at the batallion level then you have just about everything at the same size.

Also, as shown in the V for Victory/World at War games, 1 KM/Hex goes nice with batallion level games. The unit denisity is not to high and you get nice large maps.

But, unfortunately, TOAW does not have 1 KM/Hex scale. The reason for this, IMO, is the formula for equipment density, is not very good and starts breaking down at the extremes. Instead of increasing by the power of 2, it should either be linear or increasing at a power somewhere's in between 1 and 2 (probably closer to 1).

So, if Ralph gets some time and wants to put in a popular enhancement, adding 1 KM/Hex scale would be a good idea, either forcing the equipment density level at 1 KM/Hex or fixing the formula.

If so.... IMO you would see LOTS of scenarios developed at the batallion level with the 1 KM/Hex scale.

Whatever,

Z

(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 26
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/4/2008 6:08:59 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		add it to the wish list if you like.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 27
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/5/2008 4:08:42 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cesteman

add it to the wish list if you like.


You mean the list of things that will never get done? <g>

Actually, there are some things on there that you DON'T want to ever get done. I'm talking real time, WEGO, and things along those lines.

Z

(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 28
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/14/2008 5:15:57 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		To follow up on my previous post
I'm on turn 25 now and the Germans (Elmer in charge)have had their day... their supply is dwindling etc
They never reached their historic advance but it took me quite some effort to contain them and form an uninterrupted line.
The permanent VP for certain locations makes guarding those hexes important...
I lost some, the most noteworthy being Bastogne
I just recaptured Malmedy and Houffalize, and thank you to the @nd Household Cavalry for holding Saint Hubert
There still are strong German units around Bastogne, the Baraque Fraiture and Trois Ponts
I have some tough fighting ahead of me before I clear the Bulge
I'm gonna tackle the southern part first as my freshest units are there





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 12/14/2008 5:16:56 AM >

_____________________________

The TOAW Redux Dude

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 29
RE: Ardennes 1944 Feedback - 12/17/2008 4:26:13 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Great screen shot!
Thanks for the AAR.
In the January Allied counteroffensive phase, I found that he initial scenario parameters gave the Allies a big advantage. Even Elmer was able to push the Germans back across the Our River by 15 January. It is an interesting question why this did not happen historically. In any case, I made some shock and supply handicaps to the Allies to tweak the parameters to allow the Germans to hold their historic line including Houffalize.
rk

(in reply to Silvanski)
Post #: 30
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