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A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI

 
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A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/17/2006 9:39:48 PM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline 		I'm playing a game at first sargeant level (the normal one) as the North. I've pretty well whipped the South on the ground at every opportunity. But I ignored the naval side and didn't do any upgrades of existing vessels' armaments, nor did I bother with much naval research. The AI must have picked up on my inattentiveness and managed to build itself a nice Southern war fleet and beat the crap out of my Northern navy. To top it off, they then sauntered up to Brooklyn and launched an amphibious assault, putting the Brooklyn base under siege! I had to muster brigades all over NY and NJ (causing their loyalty to drop from 100 to 79 or so) and then had to bring up a reinforced division from AoP to deal with the incursion. The nerve!
I'm really tickled that the AI was clever enough to figure out this opportunity. Now I have to put some emphasis on the navy as well as the North (I didn't which is ahistorical, but I appreciate that the game corrected me on that mistake.)
Good job, Matrix and developers!

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Post #: 1
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/17/2006 10:28:02 PM   
Conhugeco

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 11/14/2006
Status: offline 		Hi gunnergoz,

Nice to see you here in addition to the Battlefront forums.

Although I agree that the AI was very clever in doing what it did, doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that the Confederacy was even able to do it? I admit that I need to spend more time learning the game, but from my limited experience with it, and the posts on this forum, I am getting an increasingly uneasy feeling about the game as a game about the ACW.

The rebs who invaded Brooklyn didn't happen to be armed with AK47's did they?

DickH

_____________________________

In response to a critic: "General Lee surrendered to me. He did not surrender to any other Union General, although I believe there were several efforts made in that direction before I assumed command of the armies in Virginia."

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 2
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/17/2006 10:35:35 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		DickH,

The game is fairly open-ended, but if both sides follow the historical strategies, they'll get pretty historical results. With that said, we're already looking at the South's starting navy as a possible tweak area. It's also very easy on a scenario basis to just remove those fleets if you don't want them there. As the North though, you shouldn't completely ignore your navy and expect that the navy you have on the first day of the Civil War will be fine throughout. Historically, that didn't happen either.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Conhugeco)
Post #: 3
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/17/2006 11:06:15 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		"The AI must have picked up on my inattentiveness and managed to build itself a nice Southern war fleet and beat the crap out of my Northern navy."

You are giving the AI a bit too much credit. In the current scenario OB's the South gets 2 Fleets and 5 Ships free to start the game. You only get 2 Fleets and 9 ships yourself. In reality, you ignoring your navy as the Union should have meant the South getting free access to lots of "goodies" from their "blockade runners"---not the invasion of Brooklyn.

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 4
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 1:23:14 AM   
Conhugeco

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 11/14/2006
Status: offline 		Erik,

Thanks for the reply. Like I said, I haven't yet played the game extensively, nor have I given up on it - that's why I used the term uneasy, and not something more harsh. The AK47 comment was strictly tongue-in-cheek.

I very much appreciate the fact that the designers/developers are listening to the customers, and appear willing to consider patches/options to address the concerns.

Regards,
DickH

_____________________________

In response to a critic: "General Lee surrendered to me. He did not surrender to any other Union General, although I believe there were several efforts made in that direction before I assumed command of the armies in Virginia."

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 5
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 4:01:58 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		AI CSA naval invasions are a bit of a controversy among the testers -- some like the possibility and (also) were happily surprised when it happened, others have recommended disallowing the AI from doing it on the basis of its being ahistorical.  I've decided to see if there's a general consensus among players before changing anything.

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Post #: 6
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 4:08:17 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		Eric. I think the general consensus at the end of the "Naval Question" thread was that the South shouldn't even have a Navy. That a collection of "gunboats" with something like 20 "guns" total (in the whole Navy) didn't even qualify for inclusion as such.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 7
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 4:10:36 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		No option to build a navy either?

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Post #: 8
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 4:20:00 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

No option to build a navy either?



No objection to them "building" a navy..., that's a resource allocation question. Only object to them getting "for free" what they never had "for real".

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 9
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 5:02:13 PM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		Eric,

Don't tweak this thing into a history book. The ranting get's very old after a while from a few people. There are going to be Civil War fanatics who are going to harp on everything they can, and won't be happy until everything is exactly how it happend no matter how you play it. To me that isn't a "game" it's a history lesson. I want to be surprised, I want to have to make choices. I already know how the real thing turned out.  Books are great for replaying history, games are not...don't forget the fun!




(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 10
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 5:17:53 PM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LitFuel

Eric,

Don't tweak this thing into a history book. The ranting get's very old after a while from a few people. There are going to be Civil War fanatics who are going to harp on everything they can, and won't be happy until everything is exactly how it happend no matter how you play it. To me that isn't a "game" it's a history lesson. I want to be surprised, I want to have to make choices. I already know how the real thing turned out.  Books are great for replaying history, games are not...don't forget the fun!

So you're a fanatic if you want a game about the civil war to be like the civil war? Would I be a fanatic if I complained that a baseball game had Babe Ruth hitting 10 home runs a year and playing shortstop? How about a World War II game that gives Germany 10 aircraft carriers in 1939? The fun of a historical game is taking what one side had in a conflict and trying to do better. If you want a game where both sides are evenly matched why did you pick a Civil War game?




(in reply to LitFuel)
Post #: 11
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 6:44:19 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LitFuel

Eric,

Don't tweak this thing into a history book. The ranting get's very old after a while from a few people. There are going to be Civil War fanatics who are going to harp on everything they can, and won't be happy until everything is exactly how it happend no matter how you play it. To me that isn't a "game" it's a history lesson. I want to be surprised, I want to have to make choices. I already know how the real thing turned out.  Books are great for replaying history, games are not...don't forget the fun!



WHY NOT BOTH? Why must it be "one or the other"? No one on the history side would object to there being a "fantasy" scenario in the game..., why can't you "fantasy fans" say yes to a "historical" one as well? I am completely baffled by this attitude.

(in reply to LitFuel)
Post #: 12
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 6:50:52 PM   
LMUBill

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 12/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LitFuel

Eric,

Don't tweak this thing into a history book. The ranting get's very old after a while from a few people. There are going to be Civil War fanatics who are going to harp on everything they can, and won't be happy until everything is exactly how it happend no matter how you play it. To me that isn't a "game" it's a history lesson. I want to be surprised, I want to have to make choices. I already know how the real thing turned out.  Books are great for replaying history, games are not...don't forget the fun!



WHY NOT BOTH? Why must it be "one or the other"? No one on the history side would object to there being a "fantasy" scenario in the game..., why can't you "fantasy fans" say yes to a "historical" one as well? I am completely baffled by this attitude.



I'm still waiting for the "Guns of the South" scenario myself....

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 13
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 8:55:43 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		I think you should ask that question to Sid Meier.

Paraphrasing a quote of his, "When reality and fun clash, fun must win."

It would not make for a very fun game if it were such a 'historically accurate' model of 'real life' events that there was no opportunity for the player to affect the outcome.

I don't disagree that the CSA starting navy gives them unreasonable capabilities, but otherwise this game is (at least in my opinion) successful at being a fun simulation without any pretense (or need) of being a hyper-accurate one.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

WHY NOT BOTH? Why must it be "one or the other"? No one on the history side would object to there being a "fantasy" scenario in the game..., why can't you "fantasy fans" say yes to a "historical" one as well? I am completely baffled by this attitude.




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Post #: 14
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 9:21:51 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		It would not make for a very fun game if it were such a 'historically accurate' model of 'real life' events that there was no opportunity for the player to affect the outcome. Maybe not for you..., but why do you insist that everyone be you? Why only your way? You haven't answered the question..., "Why not BOTH?"

I don't disagree that the CSA starting navy gives them unreasonable capabilities, but otherwise this game is (at least in my opinion) successful at being a fun simulation without any pretense (or need) of being a hyper-accurate one. Again, why can't we have both? The "engine" seemingly will support it, and a Designer suggested it. Why is it so important to you to have ONLY "fantasy"? Why can't everyone "get their way."?

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 15
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 9:27:05 PM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		I hate to burst a few peoples bubble here but most history books arn't exactly 100% accurate either...I think they did a good job and packed in many features no other Civil War game has. I also found some of the posts to the developers to be rather rude and condescending. There is no need for that at all as it's not like this game is a piece of crap, and I think it's nice of them to still listen when they get those posts. I can see changing some obvious glaring things but some want to make it play out so close to history I can't imagine why you would want to play it...that's not fun to replay the same thing over and over.

It's a game, have fun with it or go read a book(not that they are always right either..lol)

Mike ,

Read your earlier post..you don't want both, as you were so gracious to offer one fantasy scenerio...gosh thanks for that . I'm not talking about Fantasies I'm talking about not getting carried away molding it into a Civil War replay for you to gaze at.

< Message edited by LitFuel -- 12/18/2006 9:43:31 PM >

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 16
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 9:46:38 PM   
Javakamp


Posts: 172
Joined: 2/17/2004
From: Lakeland, FL.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malagant

I think you should ask that question to Sid Meier.

Paraphrasing a quote of his, "When reality and fun clash, fun must win."

It would not make for a very fun game if it were such a 'historically accurate' model of 'real life' events that there was no opportunity for the player to affect the outcome.

I don't disagree that the CSA starting navy gives them unreasonable capabilities, but otherwise this game is (at least in my opinion) successful at being a fun simulation without any pretense (or need) of being a hyper-accurate one.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

WHY NOT BOTH? Why must it be "one or the other"? No one on the history side would object to there being a "fantasy" scenario in the game..., why can't you "fantasy fans" say yes to a "historical" one as well? I am completely baffled by this attitude.





The old "Realisim" vs "Playability" argumnent has been around as long as wargames, and always will.

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 17
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 9:52:54 PM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline 		My vote is to give us lots of options in the game set-up screen, to include ahistorical CSA fleets, etc.  The game seems to accomodate all sorts of types of players, so why not?  Build your own game, then play it.  Everyone wins.  

_____________________________

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...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
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Post #: 18
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/18/2006 11:45:50 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		Mike ,

Read your earlier post..you don't want both, as you were so gracious to offer one fantasy scenerio...gosh thanks for that . I'm not talking about Fantasies I'm talking about not getting carried away molding it into a Civil War replay for you to gaze at.


What? The only two scenarios in the game (not counting shorty) are both "fantasies". Eric has offered to add an "historical one" and folks are objecting. Hense my statement "Why not both?" Now you are right in one regard.., I don't want "both". I want the "historic" one. But I'm not so selfish as to want to deny other choices to other people, so I think "both" would be a great step for everyone.

(in reply to LitFuel)
Post #: 19
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/19/2006 1:11:17 AM   
spruce

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 9/23/2006
Status: offline 		In my CSA game I got Ironclad development and builded some ironclad units and was blockading Washington ... what's wrong with that ?

btw = I lost the battle and my navy had to retreat with the tail between the legs

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 20
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/19/2006 1:19:10 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		I've never said anything against the South using it's resources to build a fleet container and some ships. My only objection was to their getting them "free" in the scenario OB's. The South's resources are limited, but if a player thinks that's the way to go he should be free to pursue the option.

(in reply to spruce)
Post #: 21
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/19/2006 2:51:03 AM   
General Quarters

 

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline 		On the historicity v. playability issue, and the related question of historicity v. open-ended-ness, I don't think there is a right or wrong. It is a matter of what one enjoys. My own preference is to make the game historical as it can be and still be playable.

By historical, I don't mean that the game won't let you do anything that the real Union and Rebels did not do, but that you are working with similar constraints and opportunities. For example, the South should not start with much of a navy but should be permitted to build one if that is where the player choses to put his resources.

In short, I like historical factors but open-ended play, and I think that is what the designers intend.




(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 22
RE: A nice - sortof - surprise from the AI - 12/19/2006 4:32:19 AM   
ColdSteel


Posts: 2
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting move by the Confeds.
Hi, my first post. . . just wanted to get it out of the way.

Steve.

(in reply to General Quarters)
Post #: 23
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