Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Detailed battles AI sucks

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Forge of Freedom: The American Civil War 1861-1865 >> Detailed battles AI sucks Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/18/2006 11:14:09 PM   
solostaran

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline
I have started several games as the CSA and I have used detailed battles in all of them. The problem is that the AI will attack with 1 or 2 bde and then call in reinforcements but the AI never attacks me usually I will attack them and destroy their units one by one and win the battles loosing only 200-300 and the AI 5000-6000.
even if I choose just to stay back and take defensive positions then the AI will not attack. usually their will to fighe is 8-9 and mine 16-18. I even had a battle with 2k CSA vs 46K USA and all the AI did was attack a garrison.
Is there any way to improve the IA's performance ????? this is really annoying since i enjoy the detailed battles..
Post #: 1
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 12:43:26 AM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline
Which difficulty level are you playing on?  (On other threads, players are complaining that it's too difficult to win battles.)

_____________________________



(in reply to solostaran)
Post #: 2
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 1:46:47 AM   
Alan_Bernardo

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Bowling Green, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: solostaran

I have started several games as the CSA and I have used detailed battles in all of them. The problem is that the AI will attack with 1 or 2 bde and then call in reinforcements but the AI never attacks me usually I will attack them and destroy their units one by one and win the battles loosing only 200-300 and the AI 5000-6000.
even if I choose just to stay back and take defensive positions then the AI will not attack. usually their will to fighe is 8-9 and mine 16-18. I even had a battle with 2k CSA vs 46K USA and all the AI did was attack a garrison.
Is there any way to improve the IA's performance ????? this is really annoying since i enjoy the detailed battles..



It is very hard to please everyone, if not impossible. I'll bet that of the posts on the internet, since the medium's beginning, more than half of the posters wished they could take their posts back.

This looks like one of them. Rashly posted, wild in content, with multiple question marks to end one sentence, this is a prime candidate.


Alanb

(in reply to solostaran)
Post #: 3
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 2:31:29 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alan_Bernardo
Rashly posted, wild in content, with multiple question marks to end one sentence, this is a prime candidate.
Alanb


Ah. The question marks were mid sentence. I note this only because I watch a lot of Law and Order.

(in reply to Alan_Bernardo)
Post #: 4
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 5:08:06 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
Well, hassle is there are a lot of things that could effect this

depends on the level of the game, the time, how good the troops are, what there morale is, how much supply they have, are they waiting on reinforcements, are they stuck in a swamp ?

plus there are different Tactics the AI can pick, and it may also not be too happy with the defence it is running up against

to be honest, with out more info, it can be really HARD to tell what you are seeing


???? I like to put ???? greeesh

next you guys going to be complaining about how people spell




_____________________________


(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 5
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 6:01:18 AM   
Alan_Bernardo

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Bowling Green, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

Ah. The question marks were mid sentence


Actually they were not.  There is a sentence (i.e., independent clause) on each side.  :)

quote:

???? I like to put ???? greeesh

next you guys going to be complaining about how people spell



Seriously, it's just that folks who use multiple question marks at the end of sentences (as if one were not enough) or multiple exclamation marks, are typically over-hyped.  Rational thought is gone.  It's best not to post under such circumstances, until one settles down.  Personally I find it hard to take anyone seriously or to agree with anyone's perception of things when they use a crazy amount of question marks at the ends of sentences, when one is as good as twenty.

As such-- again, not being afflilated in any way with FoF-- I can say that the original poster's perception of things is pure nonsense.


Alanb

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 6
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 6:09:51 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
Well, we need to find out why, he is seeing what he is seeing, it may be something simple, or not

_____________________________


(in reply to Alan_Bernardo)
Post #: 7
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 6:46:08 AM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline
This sounds like the problem several of us brought up in the Support forum...where the AI gets in to a fight that it decides it can't win, so it just sits there doing nothing unless "prodded".

I believe Eric had floated the idea of making the AI withdraw if it weren't actually going to take any offensive action.

Another recommendation would be to ensure the AI does not make a strategic move to put itself in a situation where there's a fight it can't win, which it seems to do quite often.

_____________________________

"La Garde meurt, elle ne se rend pas!"

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 8
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 7:19:06 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
well, in detailed combat it may take all day to get reinforcements, and if not on close setup all day justto find the enemy if you dont want your troops to be all over the place, I am a seasoned wargamer, sorry, 38 years enough? and as I see it this is one of the best ia... try playing the union and see how good the ia can be in detailed combat

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 9
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 7:45:21 AM   
Artmiser


Posts: 179
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline
Yeah do try that, confed ai has good troops and commanders, usually aggressive as all get out at least early on.

_____________________________

Former Marine
Retired Deputy Sheriff
Wargamer untill I die

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 12:00:18 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malagant

This sounds like the problem several of us brought up in the Support forum...where the AI gets in to a fight that it decides it can't win, so it just sits there doing nothing unless "prodded".

I believe Eric had floated the idea of making the AI withdraw if it weren't actually going to take any offensive action.

Another recommendation would be to ensure the AI does not make a strategic move to put itself in a situation where there's a fight it can't win, which it seems to do quite often.


roger and agree, which is why I am trying to get all the details we can to be sure what and why it is happening

we got something in the works, so the AI will give up instead of just sit, and yes, the AI does make checks as to what it can or thinks it can win or lose before it moves, but it needs some more work
(one hassle is what is a Stonewall in HW, may be a easy win in QC, so the AI is not always wrong, when it makes it's judgement)

also as has been said, terrian and reinforcements can come in also, if the AI is calling for reinforcements, it will tend to hold in place until they come in and reach them, so it does not come in one at a time, plus depending on what tactics the AI decides it is going to try

Art, roger that, or if you get into the high levels of the game, the AI gets more morale, if the AI gets enough morale, it will get very agressive, you play the game on Col or one of the Gen levels and it will not give you any peace, you get the AI will morale of 6 or 8, and look out

_____________________________


(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 11
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 10:38:58 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
First AI disappointment thread I've seen, but, only 1 person unlike the many I usually see. When an AI truely suks is when you get the game you start out on the hardest difficulty and win easily, that's a suky AI (RTW). I always start on the hardest difficulty and work my way down not on easy or normal. I see easy and normal for people who've never played a wargame or strategy game before or those that just want a casual experience and nothing complicated or hard or those that just can't stand to lose to a machine haha. I relish the joy when the AI beats me, that means it's hard enough and challeging enough I have something to accomplish. It's why I keep pushing for difficulty sliders with even more options to improve die rolls, morale bonuses, troup counts etc. etc. like Madden Football gives. I love all the difficulty sliders. The more options and sliders the better I think.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 12
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/19/2006 11:04:58 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
LOL
I pretty much agree (only I don't like games to be HARD because they cheat (like in Maddon, you have a guy with 90 speed and he is slower then the AI guy with 85 speed, because each level of Diff adds 5 to each stat)

but over all, one the key stats in this game is morale, the higher the morale, the more the AI is going to do

but it can have it bad points too

wait till you see a trench line with double rows of troops and each one is a 8 or 10 morale, talk about murder, and for both sides


_____________________________


(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 13
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 2:00:41 AM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
I dont care about AI in most of games I use it mostly as training opponent but I try mostly in all games find human opponent its a lot more fun that way. :D

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 14
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 3:52:59 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
I wish game companies could make AIs truly smarter at higher difficulty levels and not just better stats.  In FoF for example, at an easy setting the AI makes head on attacks while at the hard setting it tries more flanking maneuvers. You know things like that.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Jakerson)
Post #: 15
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 5:34:57 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
Kid,
In the "Command/Control madness!" thread in the Support sub-forum Eric posted the following message (the latest in a series of such posts on both this forum and the "Crown of Glory" one). This will explain why asking for superior AI often falls into the category of "easier said than done."

The AI is never going to be able perfectly to simulate the minds of commanders on the field of a Civil War battlefield -- there will always be little things wrong with the AI. I'm happy to work at identifying and correcting some instances of poor behavior, however, as I've mentioned, I have found in the past that often in doing this, the "fixes" that rule-out poor behavior end up crippling the AI in other ways and frequently create just as many problems as they solve... though not always! sometimes fixes do work, but it's a lot of effort to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

Every six months or so I write a little post on the theoretical limitations of AI; I won't go through the whole thing now, but will summarize. The way that AI works is by searching through something called a "state space" for the game, to look for optimal changes to the game's current state. The larger the size of the game's state space, the longer it takes the AI to find maxima within it. For most games that people enjoy playing, the state spaces are so enormous that AI's never actually search the entire state space, even for a single turn. A game like tic-tac-toe (or, uhm, noughts-and-crosses) does have a solubly small state space; a game such as Chess does not. I've calculated the rough size of FOF's state space, and to search through all the permutations of the state space for a single turn at PC processor speeds would take longer than trillions of times the age of the Universe. So most games using AI have to use approximation techniques to search subsets of the state space -- they have to identify vast parts of the state space to exclude from their search in order to whittle down the size of the space to something that is a searchable size. For a game like FOF, this means excluding more than 99.99999999999999% of the possible moves from the AI's consideration.

Programmers working with AI spend a lot of time refining the approximation to the search of the game's state space, and there are many documented techniques for doing this. Even for relatively simple games, however, these techniques have not been very successful. I've studied the AI for the game Go quite a bit in the course of trying to teach myself how to program AI. Go has a state space that is considerably larger than Chess, but much, much smaller than a game like FOF's. There have been PhD computer scientists who have dedicated their careers -- one guy I read has been working on this for 30 years -- to developing good Go AI algorithms, and there's a whole community of computer scientists who are working on solving the problem of Go's AI. Given all the enormous human effort poured into writing a good Go algorithm, it's disappointing to learn that the best Go algorithm that's been developed to date only has the Go ranking of "weak amateur" when playing against human opponents, and even that algorithm requires more computing power than a standard PC has and takes a long time between turns to make its moves. Given that FOF's state space is exponentially larger than Go's, and also considering that I'm not about to devote my entire career to developing a FOF AI algorithm, and also considering that there is not a community of PhD computer scientists working on this problem, to expect the AI to play above amateur level or (much harder) to simulate what historical generals might do is, I humbly submit, an unreasonably high expectation.



< Message edited by Gil R. -- 12/20/2006 9:18:49 PM >

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 16
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 8:39:49 AM   
Knu

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 1/31/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
This same thing about detailed battles has been discussed in various threads, for example in this one:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1323640

I cannot understand this constant excusing, that "it might be that you are playing this or that level", or "perhaps this and that scenario", or something along those lines.

There is several complaints, that the detailed battle seems to be broken in a sense, that AI cannot launch at least somewhat coordinated attacks. I just hope the developers will take these comments seriously, because this could be an excellent game.

I at least lost all the intrest to the game, due to the detailed battle problem and I'm hoping future patches will fix the problem, so I can get back to the game.

Happy Christmas to all!

Kimmo

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 17
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 6:17:26 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
Gil R.,

I get what you’re saying about the complexities of AI programming.  What I am looking for are some modifications to the decision making process. For example, on easy setting the AI might conduct a charge even if the odds are bad, but on expert the AI would calculate the chance for success and only charge if it knows its going to win. Another example, on easy the AI picks targets at random, but on expert it concentrates its fire on a few units. Things like that are what I am thinking.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Knu)
Post #: 18
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 7:50:41 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
Kid,
Not being a programmer, I can't tell you how easy it would be to do that and get that right. But you might want to suggest it on the "Wish List" thread. (Eric doesn't like it, and rightly so, when people just say "You should make the AI better" but does indeed welcome concrete suggestions such as yours.)

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 19
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 9:08:19 PM   
General Quarters

 

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
I found the message posted by Gil quoting Eric on the challenge of designing an AI for a complex field, much more complex than chess, very illuminating and interesting. It gives me a lot more sympathy for designers and the challenges they face -- and a lot more appreciation for their creations.

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 20
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 9:25:46 PM   
solostaran

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline
I am playing at captain but it was the same at sgt. major. IA enters a battle and wait for me to go and destroy all their bde. one at a time not even trying to fight back. I am CSA with morale from 5-7 and my will to fight is usually 12-16 vs USA will to fight form 4-8.

This way I will destroy the US army in 6 months and can march into Washington with no opposition and my army equiped with supply and arms form the US army.

As I said earlier this is not only in battles with 1:1 ratio but also in battles where the US force is 40 times larger than mine.

If it is possible I would like the AI to retreat if it thinks it can not win the battle. And also not leave weapons and supply behind when retreating at the start of the battle.

(in reply to General Quarters)
Post #: 21
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/20/2006 9:32:06 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Gil R.,

I get what you’re saying about the complexities of AI programming. What I am looking for are some modifications to the decision making process. For example, on easy setting the AI might conduct a charge even if the odds are bad, but on expert the AI would calculate the chance for success and only charge if it knows its going to win. Another example, on easy the AI picks targets at random, but on expert it concentrates its fire on a few units. Things like that are what I am thinking.


overall, though, I think it does, what the AI tries for when it charges is to get the unit to panic or to "duck" if it ducks, then another unit has a chance to charge it, it if gets it target, it will rip it apart, hassle is how many times does the charge fail, but it is a very ruff tactic when the other side is set up

_____________________________


(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 22
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/22/2006 2:02:07 AM   
Houtje

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Netherlands
Status: offline
True enough, I discovered. I had (as CSA) my Yell's rifles defending my right flank. They withheld the first charge, causing some 700 casualties, but then got trashed by another charge, losing 500+ men themselves. I think that the AI is especially eager to charge through my units when these are between the enemy and a victory point.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 23
RE: Detailed battles AI sucks - 12/22/2006 2:40:14 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
I've always been happy with the numerical handicaps an advantages the AI can receive. At least it presents a futher challenge to playing the game. (Beating the odds against you). Probably a reason I don't care for simulation computer wargames. The AI has to be too precise and too exact. With open ended tactical like games as Combat Mission and Steel Panthers I can give the AI the handicaps an advantages I want that will provide a fun and challenging game. Though the AI for both of them on offense leaves a lot to be desired. Combat mission AI doesn't know when it's winning and at the near end of the battle moves out of objectives or entrenched positions to take back one measly flag. The AI in SPWAW appears too passive for me where I will pour everything to the wind and fire every shot, it is more conservative and only fires a few shots and not enough counter shots for my liking. But, then again I play like a Patton and full bull to the wind to hell with the losses. :)
War is hell men will die, but, I must get there first. ;) I'm a premadona haha

I've never expected a perfect AI. What I have expected were enough options and the ability to improve what the AI has to use almost to the unlimited point. (I'd prefer unlimited). Spartan has a very good example of this in v1.013 AND allows the player to also play with the AI's performance in the manner it researches, builds and attacks/defends and even it's diplomatic stances. This too is something I'd like to see more games open up to the community the ability to tweak the AI even inside the game. The KOHAN series is another game that opens up the AI abilites to the players to create. I actually created an AI in it that even I am afraid to face sometimes. :) I think that more heads are always better than one or two when it comes to the AI and allowing the community more options to tinker with the AI's will just improve the game in the long term.

In a nutshell all I'm asking for is more options for the individual player to tweak the abilities of the AI over hard-coded AI difficulties and settings. Of course a game like RTW which didn't even program in at least basic rules of warfare tactics for the time period was a lost cause improving the stats or life of the units. They didn't even program it for cordinated attacks. It goes to battle like a street fight in the bronx everyone for himself and forget the flanks...what flanks? lol The only thing I could do to salvage RTW was to just completely remove morale. Then it just became a game of population limits. Both sides lost huge amounts of men in all the battles (that was good, but, I couldn't play on huge settings any longer lol). But, that challenge is still there if I want to play it, making population growth more important than anything else and trying not to lose as many men as possible during each battle. The other thing I did was gimp Spain, Thrace, Armenia, Nubia and yes even Britiania to be much much weaker than all the other factions (thus not playable by me or yeah I could play them, but, I would lose horribly lol) This opened up the game for Carthage to finally grow and even move into Spain and even make naval assaults on Rome early in the game. It also allowed Gaul and Germania to become stronger. In the east as much as I tried in fairness to create a stronger Selucid AI empire, I couldn't just shut down Egypt and Parthia completely. Maybe 1 out of 10 games the Selucids will break out and become a power, but, most times it's Egypt and Parthia

Many other things of RTW make the AI just look horrible. As I would play Rome with FOW off to watch how my modding worked out I noticed far too many times backwards and forwards movements of way too many units not doing anything for 30 years (full stacks) and there were provinces wide open for them to attack or take that they were at war with or even neutral provinces open from rebellion.

I'd rather see an AI programmed for an objective and follow that programming to a tee "unless" and this is a big unless it has a very good lead and knows (it should know an can calculate victory conditions and when the game ends at least. geesh) the end of the game is near and it will have the victory. There is no need abandoning entrenched or a winning posture to banzhai attack the player just because the player got one damn objective at the near end of the game. This fuzzy logic or whatever it's called just appears to befuddle the AI nowadays especially on large maps. Back in the day with games like "EMPIRE" or "WARLORDS" when you saw the AI coming by gawd it was COMING! lol Even so, even the old titles by SSI like Gettysburg, or Antietam or Sons of Liberty or War of the Lance those AI's were and still are better than most AI's today. I have much more challenging battles playing SSI's Gettysburg vs HPS's Gettysburg as an example. And to this day "War of the Lance" AI is one of the best I've ever played against in "fair and equal settings". Matrixgames really needs to bribe Dave Landrey back into the business. ;) He also worked on "Battles of Napoleon" another great old game with a decent ai.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 12/22/2006 2:54:28 AM >

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 24
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Forge of Freedom: The American Civil War 1861-1865 >> Detailed battles AI sucks Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.484