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Getting tired... - 12/22/2006 10:21:10 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Of fighting the same two units four times each turn, every turn.

I have 4 divisions in the central Mississippi river (by the way why not name these area for the cities which are there instead of the rivers? I've heard of the siege of Vicksburg but not of the lower central middle almost to the delta but not quite, Mississippi River.) and each turn they each attack the same two brigades which turn tail and run (with no or very few losses) - except they don't run - they stick around for each of my four divisions to engage.

Similarly a lone cavalry brigade proceeds to attack the ANV for the past several turns running at the first sight of my army and losing its weapons occasionally.

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Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
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RE: Getting tired... - 12/22/2006 10:40:08 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Oh my, Sonny.

Guess you toy around with the ... erm AI ?

The small unit advances are like a PBM opponent on recon - raiders, gun-boats, cav. Whatever.
Not that bad - really.

And what is more - a single lousy unit (replace lousy with any term of your liking) can stop your most ambitious planning - at the right junktion.

Whatever you say, those small skirmishes are really a credit to the game engine and the A.I.
You may want to run a PBM to see the light.
Kind of against the grain (more troops faster stuff) but it is a strong point of the engine. Imho.

Cheers

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 2
RE: Getting tired... - 12/22/2006 11:14:40 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		I think you give more credit to the AI then it deserves. They are usually just trying to join up with some other army and you're in its way. In my opinion, the AI simply doesn't know how to go around.

Regardless if I'm right or wrong, the real issue is that if you have an overwhelming force, you shouldn't be stopped from moving into the province you want to. This is what makes the tactic very "gamey" and frustrating. It's not quite the situation Sonny is describing but it happens nonetheless.

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Post #: 3
RE: Getting tired... - 12/22/2006 11:54:37 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Hi Joram,

I am not saying it is right or wrong. I am saying it is effective.
It being gamey or not is a different story.
Cavallary could and did do a lot of things. And "old Blue lights" was a master of this kind of "subterfuge".
What is more: A human opponent cornered comes up with some "creative" ideas.
And lets face it: If the Ai is doing the right things for the wrong causes or vice versa - does not really matter.

Some of the biggest battles in the ACW (Shilo, Gettysburgh) are rooted here.
And the small units may cause big battles - by drawing reinforcements - is another big point for the engine.
Again imho.

Cheers

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Post #: 4
RE: Getting tired... - 12/23/2006 3:09:28 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		The one unit sacrificing its weapons and a few men is not the real point of the post If the AI is smart enough to do it then well and good. I doubt that is the situation however. I don't think that tactic would stop my unit from moving if I had decided to move. have not checked it out though.

The real problem is two brigades fighting four individual divisions (not combined in a corp or army) losing each time and not retreating.

In all my other battles the loser moves out after it fights all of the troops in the area in one battle - not four separate battles. I do quick battles and after several turns of this happening I checked to be sure that it was in fact the same two brigades each turn in each battle.

Maybe there is some rule I am missing. If so let me know.



_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to vonSchnitter)
Post #: 5
RE: Getting tired... - 12/23/2006 7:08:17 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		Ahh, I went off on a tangent then.  What I described seems to happen and it, as I said, is very frustrating.  Sorry.  :)

Actually, what you describe sounds more like a bug though I'm not certain.  I have had enemy brigades bounce between two of my provinces before and ending in one (after defeating them 6 times in a row) but I've never had one stay put when it started in a province.  Interesting. 

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Post #: 6
RE: Getting tired... - 12/23/2006 1:29:53 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Ahh, I went off on a tangent then. What I described seems to happen and it, as I said, is very frustrating. Sorry. :)

Actually, what you describe sounds more like a bug though I'm not certain. I have had enemy brigades bounce between two of my provinces before and ending in one (after defeating them 6 times in a row) but I've never had one stay put when it started in a province. Interesting.


Yeah, the bouncing is frustrating. Maybe that is what was going on and I did not recognize it. I only checked the enemy brigades to see that they were the same ones not my own. One thing was that I could never see the enemy troops on the map. There was a "+" on the map but when I clicked on it all I saw were my troops.

I don't think I have the save games but if I do I will check again more closely. It probably was the bouncing thing because IIRC after several bounces the enemy troops do remain in one of the areas where your troops are present.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 7
RE: Getting tired... - 12/25/2006 7:14:05 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		I believe it's a bug, and being looked into.

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 8
RE: Getting tired... - 12/25/2006 7:25:46 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		We did change retreat behavior for the next patch... it's not really a bug (code is working as expected) but rather an unfortunate situation for the units to be in given the current retreat rules.  We are experimenting with new retreat rules....

River provinces are all named after rivers and not cities so players easily can identify them as river provinces.


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Post #: 9
RE: Getting tired... - 12/26/2006 5:22:58 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

We did change retreat behavior for the next patch... it's not really a bug (code is working as expected) but rather an unfortunate situation for the units to be in given the current retreat rules. We are experimenting with new retreat rules....

River provinces are all named after rivers and not cities so players easily can identify them as river provinces.



Good to know. Thanks.

Now about the suicidal attacks...

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 10
RE: Getting tired... - 12/26/2006 5:31:40 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Sonny
can you check to see, if the battle you are talking about was troops in a City fighting troops in a Fort ?




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Post #: 11
RE: Getting tired... - 12/26/2006 6:48:59 AM   
Artmiser


Posts: 179
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		Its a pathing error with the ai, I had this happen to me when using auto join to move units from washington, it seems to feel the need to move go sw into fredricksburg first instead of west to maryland.  Is it possible the ai thinks there is a rail link or river link that it can use for ease of transport?


_____________________________

Former Marine
Retired Deputy Sheriff
Wargamer untill I die

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Post #: 12
RE: Getting tired... - 12/26/2006 4:46:26 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

We did change retreat behavior for the next patch... it's not really a bug (code is working as expected) but rather an unfortunate situation for the units to be in given the current retreat rules.  We are experimenting with new retreat rules....

River provinces are all named after rivers and not cities so players easily can identify them as river provinces.



Hope you can fix it..., it's really annoying when the AI keeps throwing the same force at you and keeps you from moving. Especially when it then decides that this very effective "spoiling attack" cost it little or nothing in losses more often or not. This from an "Infantry Brigade" attacking two Divisions. Much of the game works..., but this just looks silly. If it's going to stop a much larger force from moving it should at least get it's teeth kicked in doing so.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 13
RE: Getting tired... - 12/26/2006 5:45:32 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Sonny
can you check to see, if the battle you are talking about was troops in a City fighting troops in a Fort ?





I don't have the autosaves for those battles anymore.

From what I remember I was just holding down the Miss. Tenn. river province and these two brigades kept attacking me each turn and then bouncing back and forth (or fighting all four divisions).

I thought all four divisions were in the same area but the graphics around that area are such that it is hard to tell where things are by looking.

EDIT: Oops! Sorry I did not answer the question. My forces were definitely not in a city.

< Message edited by Sonny -- 12/26/2006 5:55:49 PM >

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 14
RE: Getting tired... - 12/26/2006 9:05:28 PM   
Artmiser


Posts: 179
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		I still say pathing errors, the ai just tries to move units through your area to join another unit.  Happens when using auto join to move units.  Its not the ai trying to attack with two brigades its the ai trying to move the two brigades somewhere else and accidently moving through enemy held territory.  The two brigades get bounced the ai tries to move them again ect repeat.

_____________________________

Former Marine
Retired Deputy Sheriff
Wargamer untill I die

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Post #: 15
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