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Italy sucks for me - 12/26/2006 7:52:56 PM

robot

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I am sorry but I am having a very bad time trying to get the Italians to do anything. Half the time they will not move I think I have clicked on morale button at least a thousand times trying to get some guts into them so they will even fire there weapons at the enemy. I move them one hex at a time and then they move one more and the enemy is waiting to cut them down. And when the french fire at them some time six times and they dont return any kind of fire at them or see the enemy. This is very frustrating to me. To not put up some kind of fight drives me mad and makes me cuss a lot which my wife hates.

Im also am starting to believe since you dont see what your artty is hitting in enhanced that maybe it has also effected the way it works. I have never in all the battles I have fought had the off board artty do so bad. Usually my off board takes out some where around 40 of the enemy units in a battle. So far in this one they have managed to take out only 3 and i am in the 16 th turn. Also in using my artty as a screen for my troops it doesnt seem to effect the enemy as much as his bombings do to me. In other words my suppression lasts so much longer then his does. I bomb the hexes in front of my troops very heavily then move my troops forward behind this and the enemy troops are always ready to cut my troops to pieces.

Plus the sighting ability of the Italians is next to nill they can not see anything even the recon troops dont. I dont know maybe just because I feel I am getting beat so bad I want some way to explain my loss. But I just have not fought with such lousy troops since I have been playing. I guess this may give me new respect for the other powers I dont know. I will continue as always to try as hard as I can to win and just wait and see as they get better. Please tell me they do get better dont they.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/26/2006 9:44:42 PM

KG Erwin

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Try using the mech.exe from the Enhanced Mod. The "national ratings" were raised for a few nations, such as Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria etc to make them more playable.

I don't what OOB set you're using, but switching from the standard mech.exe to the enhanced version won't harm anything.

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Post #: 2

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/26/2006 9:50:43 PM

Mau Fox

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Ciao Robot!

Please, don't get me wrong but playing with any "Minor Country" need an upper level of skills.
Actually it is a completely different experience.

This time you won't have any of those big iron boxes capable of wiping out the battlefield being almost invincible.
This time you will need to deal with different weaponry and tactics.

I can say that the Italians can do better, even versus Shermans.

Right now we are having a great fun at the Depot playing an Academy League between Italians and Americans in Tunisia in 1943.
Some of the finest gamers are involved on both fronts and I can assure you that they all are having a good time there.
I would suggest you to join the Depot Academy's Combined Weapons Course, it can open a new way to play Steel Panthers even for an experienced gamer like you are.

Mau Fox.

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Post #: 3

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/26/2006 10:31:05 PM

Goblin

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The artillery effectiveness was not changed for ENH, just the messages about casualties deleted. The messages have no effect on the actual casualties, since they are displayed after casualties are calculated by the game.

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Post #: 4

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 1:40:42 AM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Try using the mech.exe from the Enhanced Mod. The "national ratings" were raised for a few nations, such as Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria etc to make them more playable.

I don't what OOB set you're using, but switching from the standard mech.exe to the enhanced version won't harm anything.

I think he is using Enhanced..

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Post #: 5

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 2:14:37 AM

robot

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Enhanced 101 I call it. Just that my artty is near to ineffective with it. No suppression so to speak with it and yet the French has almost half my force in retreat. I think im just maybe making up excuses for my lack of good leadership. But the Italians are near to impossible to play with. Even when others said Russia was such a lousy nation to play with I did very well with them. When I fought the Finns with the Russians in 1939 I did well. I just dont seem to have any control over these Italians. Over half my force has begun to retreat and this makes it very difficult to have any coheisivness in my battle. In none of my battles have I ever had this many men run toward the rear. If this were the german army they would have all been shot but dam I cant go and shoot half of my main force.

I am only in the 15 th turn so I will stick it out till turn 34 or when ever this ends and hope that i can turn it into a draw at least. Because it will never be any better then that I assure you. I dont have enough men left to try and take the rear objectives. And I know that after this battle is over i will not get enough rebuild points to repair all of the dead and destroyed armor. And so the spirel will continue on downward. I think I needed a defense for at least my first engagement to sort of toughen this force up. Isnt war so dam much fun when it is a game. My wife says that if I dont shut up my bitchin at my men shes goin to blow my comp up shes tired of hearing it every time I go into this battle.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 2:22:43 AM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

Enhanced 101 I call it. Just that my artty is near to ineffective with it. No suppression so to speak with it and yet the French has almost half my force in retreat. I think im just maybe making up excuses for my lack of good leadership. But the Italians are near to impossible to play with. Even when others said Russia was such a lousy nation to play with I did very well with them. When I fought the Finns with the Russians in 1939 I did well. I just dont seem to have any control over these Italians. Over half my force has begun to retreat and this makes it very difficult to have any coheisivness in my battle. In none of my battles have I ever had this many men run toward the rear. If this were the german army they would have all been shot but dam I cant go and shoot half of my main force.

I am only in the 15 th turn so I will stick it out till turn 34 or when ever this ends and hope that i can turn it into a draw at least. Because it will never be any better then that I assure you. I dont have enough men left to try and take the rear objectives. And I know that after this battle is over i will not get enough rebuild points to repair all of the dead and destroyed armor. And so the spirel will continue on downward. I think I needed a defense for at least my first engagement to sort of toughen this force up. Isnt war so dam much fun when it is a game. My wife says that if I dont shut up my bitchin at my men shes goin to blow my comp up shes tired of hearing it every time I go into this battle.

Turn your arty up to setting 120

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Post #: 7

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 4:10:46 AM

FlashfyreSP

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robot

What are your Searching and Artillery settings at in the Preference Screen? Artillery damage has been reduced (too much in many of our eyes) for the 8.4/8.403 ops, but setting the Artillery Hitting prefs to 120% for both Soft and Hard will make indirect artillery fire more effective.

I use Seaching at 80% and can spot units ok, but not as easy as with 100%; this helps keep those small units like recon and ATGs hidden longer.

I'd double-check my Preference settings to make sure something there isn't causing your Italians to be wimps; I can honestly say that I have played a couple of games as the Italians in 1942-43, and they are much better in Enhanced than in 8.3.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 4:14:16 AM

robot

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Might be because i have my settings at 45 because I wanted to start at that and let them grow. In other words I dont have the default set for my men. The french are at default so i assume that is at what ever they start out in 41 while my men are mostly all green troops may be the problem. May have to start this one over with the default set to get a better set of men.

< Message edited by robot -- 12/27/2006 4:23:51 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 5:04:55 AM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

Might be because i have my settings at 45 because I wanted to start at that and let them grow. In other words I dont have the default set for my men. The french are at default so i assume that is at what ever they start out in 41 while my men are mostly all green troops may be the problem. May have to start this one over with the default set to get a better set of men.

wow!! no wonder you are getting your butt kicked...heheheh
thats exactly why we adjusted some of the minor nations ratings.
so you could actually move forward with them...

< Message edited by Alby -- 12/27/2006 5:17:57 AM >

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 8:27:42 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

Might be because i have my settings at 45 because I wanted to start at that and let them grow. In other words I dont have the default set for my men. The french are at default so i assume that is at what ever they start out in 41 while my men are mostly all green troops may be the problem. May have to start this one over with the default set to get a better set of men.

You started at '45' for your Italians, but let the AI set the French side at 'default'?!?!?

My friend, you really should restart that one. The AI is getting its French troops with an average Exp/Morale of 65 in 1940. It's a given that any rating less than 60 is difficult to play, because the units are harder to rally, have less shots/turn, and break quicker. Remember, too, suppression levels are based on percents of the unit's Morale raing; with low morale, the 'steps' between Pinned, Retreating and Routed are smaller, meaning the unit requires less incoming fire to gain enough suppression to change status levels. Skill levels are also set by the Preference setting: if you set a value of '45' for your Italians, you also set their Primary Skill Base to be 45. Even with random adjustments, your units probably have very low Primary Skill and Rally ratings too.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 8:39:28 AM

vahauser

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I am very confused. How can you manually set your troop quality to 45 and yet have the computer set the default "historical rating"? Isn't that impossible?

Also, I personally believe that the artillery effectiveness in Enhanced is just fine at 100%. I never set my artillery percentages above 100%. Never. Ever. I would be extraordinarily pissed off if anybody ever messes with the default artillery effectiveness in Enhanced. Leave it alone. It is not broken. It is just fine the way it is right now. Don't "fix" it!

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 4:29:54 PM

Goblin

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If robot turned off the ratings to set his, the French side will start at the default number. If he did not change it, that is how he got them at default.

The arty in 8.403 sucks. I turn mine up too. Hitting enemy infantry in an open field while they are moving and having them ignore the barrage and just keep striding forward and shooting is a joke, especially when you are slapping 155's down on them.

< Message edited by Goblin -- 12/27/2006 4:39:04 PM >

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 4:48:05 PM

Alby

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We have no way to change the default artillery effectivness, it would require a code change.
When working on Enhanced with Mike Wood as a consultant, Splash Damage and units in the next hex suffering more damage than the actual target unit in the hex that is fired upon, was brought up as needing looked at.
somehow, it was misunderstood that next hex splash damage was the problem so it was adjusted down a tad bit too low, which somehow in turn effected the actual IN hex damage too.

< Message edited by Alby -- 12/27/2006 5:03:50 PM >

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 4:56:51 PM

Riun T

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GOD, I'm glad I'm too stupid to tyry messing with most of the shiney buttons on the prefs screen,,, and wheres this yellow smiley putting his finger??

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 5:04:17 PM

FlashfyreSP

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That's why the settings are there...to let everyone use the ones they prefer.

However, the Artillery damage routines in the mech.exe ARE less effective than those in the 8.3 version; comparison testing revealed that, as well as internal discussions with Mike Woods during the Enhanced Mod work-up. The only "solution" now is to increase the Artillery vs Soft/Armour settings.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 5:43:14 PM

robot

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exactly what I did Goblin you hit it right on the head. I love starting my troops green and then bringing them along. Takes a little longer getting them to elite i believe but its worth the time and effort. At least this is the way I feel. Its just that the italians are worse then any nation ive played with so far. I just hope I will be able to at least get my men repaired after this fight are I may have to start over to have a fighting force. Very very frustrating to have so many squads take off for the rear. And there ability to find and fire and hit seems to be real low as well. Im at turn 20 so I guess ill stay with them and see what turns up at the end.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 8:17:34 PM

vahauser

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Now I am even more confused. If I install the game. Clean install which means that nothing has yet been done to anything. Now lets say I turn �historical ratings� OFF. When I do that, then Player1 is at the default of 70 and Player2 is at the default of 70. If I then manually set Player1 to 45, then Player2 remains at 70 (if I do nothing to Player2) right?

Well, FlashFyre stated in an earlier post that the French in Enhanced were 65/70/70 in 1940. And Robot replied, yes, he left the French at default and changed his TQ to 45. Somehow I think I got the terminology confused. Was robot saying he left the French at TQ70? And was FlashFyre saying the French should be TQ65? Hence my confusion as to what �default� meant.

Now, as many of you know, TQ65 is actually superior to TQ70 due to the way purchase points are spent by the computer. Perhaps this is what FlashFyre was saying?

Artillery is NOT Underpowered in Enhanced.
Artillery was so overpowered in standard SPWAW 8.40, that all artillery effects could have been cut by a factor of 3 and still be too strong. Indeed, in many of my SPWAW 7.1 to 8.4 playing days (yes, this all started back with 7.1 and the horrible changes to artillery that were made in that version (and I blame Paul Vebber for this) (you can check out my thread back in 2001, by victorhauser, called �A Bombardment Test� or something like that)) I regularly set the artillery all the way down to the minimum 30% (and artillery still felt overpowered to me in many cases). Now I don�t know just how much artillery effectiveness was reduced in Enhanced, but I don�t think it was by a factor of 3 or more. Therefore and ergo, artillery is not underpowered in Enhanced. Q.E.D.

My personal belief is that many players got addicted to the overpowered artillery in standard 8.40 and are now going through addiction withdrawal pains in Enhanced today. But the pain they are feeling is an overreaction.

< Message edited by vahauser -- 12/27/2006 8:32:08 PM >

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 8:33:04 PM

Goblin

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Three or four 155mm rounds impacting in a 50m hex on top of infantry, in the open, and they continue to move and fire is screwed up, period.

Artillery was not 'reduced' for ENH, that was done in 8.4. Most players noticed the almost useless artillery when that change was made. You play your way, we'll play ours, and we shouldn't expect to be made to feel like asses because of it.

Goblin

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 9:09:15 PM

vahauser

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Goblin,

I'm not trying to upset anybody. But there is a movement within the SPWAW community to create an "historical" game (whatever the hell that means). Anyway, the current Enhanced artillery is more "historical" at 100% than at 120%. That is all I'm saying.

Of course SPWAW is attractive to many players because they can tweak and fiddle with all those dials and knobs. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to select whatever settings they want. Certainly we can (and usually DO) play this game however we get the most fun out of it.

But if you want "historical", then all I'm saying is that 100% is more "historical" than 120% for Enhanced.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 9:51:41 PM

Goblin

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And others are saying it is not. I see absolutely nothing historical about ten men being in the kill zone of several 150mm+ rounds in an open field, and simply ignoring them while continuing to fight, despite the fact that they should be so much jelly flying through the air. 75mm rounds are now less dangerous than Misc Small Arms as a weapon (they still are even at 120%).

Artillery accounted for something like 70% of the casualties in the war give or take. Even at the full 100%, you are lucky to kill five men per battle, and only if you hit them with every battery you own.

The demeaning part of your post is stating your stance as fact and 'historical', when it is one opinion, while other's opinions are addressed as being 'addicted to the overpowered artillery', and incorrect. An opinion is just that.

Goblin

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 10:24:54 PM

Goblin

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More information on the kill radius of various artillery, including burst radius (70yards for ww2 155 shells), safe distance (400 yards for a 155mm shell), and risk of becoming a casualty by terrain.

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/crossfire/history/artillery.htm

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 12/27/2006 10:34:45 PM >

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 10:28:00 PM

robot

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Goblin exactly what im getting at no killing power. I recently hit an enemy squad in a hex with 6 81 morters firing at them plus 4 152s all on the same squad. I then moved up to take him out with my squad. they never even got to fire his first rounds took out 4 of my squad as I approached and then when i fired nothing happened and he fired again taking out another 3 then my squad ran for there lives. This is after at least over 30 rounds landed in the same square with the enemy squad. You would have thought that at least half of the enemy squad would have been dead by now and the rest digging holes to china. Not able to unleash so much fitrepower at my guys. I know they are Italians and the way I set up my guys only being 45 exp may be the culpert here but dam that shouldnt effect the way my artty shells go off or there damage do you think.

Goblin 75 MM or next to usless and shouldnt even be in the game no suppression and definatly no damage ever. An ATR section does more damage then them. This is my oppinion only and does not reflect the oppinion of the sponser.

< Message edited by robot -- 12/27/2006 10:42:23 PM >

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 10:48:36 PM

Alby

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As I stated guys, when the next hex damage was reduced, somehow the IN hex damage by direct fire also got effected..
fire a 150 INF gun directly at an Infantry squad now and almost nothing happens.

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Post #: 24

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 10:48:51 PM

vahauser

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Goblin,

I appreciate your taking the time to link that webpage on artillery. I don't want to hijack this thread which was supposed to be about robot's Italian Campaign and turn it into a debate on artillery effectiveness.

I believe that what is the source of concern is "theory vs. reality". I will compose a reply to your post and start a new thread so this thread can remain On-Topic.

My short answer for now, is that the only "real-life" example provided by the webpage you linked demonstrated that artillery was almost completely ineffective against Japanese fortifications, even though "theory" might have suggested otherwise. More on this and related issues in a new thread coming soon.

I am sorry, robot, for taking this thread Off-Topic.

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Post #: 25

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/27/2006 11:11:33 PM

robot

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No problem there Vahauser kind of enjoyed it. Alby is that in the enhanced version only or before in 8.4 this happened. Because ill tell you in this Italian campaign these guys need all the help they can get from there artty.

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/28/2006 12:43:01 AM

Alby

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It was done in the 8.4 mech i believe, but, it may have been 8.403.
unfortunately it is in the 8.403 mech which Enhanced uses.
setting it at 120 works for me.

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Post #: 27

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/28/2006 12:48:22 AM

h_h_lightcap

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VAHAUSER---

I hate to say it, but Goblin is right

, and for many more reasons than he stated....Read a few first person accounts of WWI and WWII---arty ALONE could stop a major attack if it was sited in the right place. In SPWAW at 100% is barely suppresses units. Also, all the other versions of the game have lethal arty (SPWW2, SPH2H, etc) are they all wrong or ahistorical???? Sorry, read up on this. I dont have any websites to quote but a few good books would be COMPANY COMMANDER, BRAZEN CHARIOTS, and 1st person German accounts......

HH

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RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/28/2006 3:02:37 AM

robot

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Guys I dont know how but i got draw. Even after the lopsided losses to the French. See my DAR on the losses. I did not take the front objectives even. The only way I can figure it is there troops were worth more then mine due to the experience lvls. Doesnt seem fair to me to call it a draw but i will take it as a gift like. I will not be able to repair any tanks i lost for my next battle but was able to get my lost men replaced. My next battle is a delay if i dont have too much trouble maybe I can recoup after this one.

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Post #: 29

RE: Italy sucks for me - 12/28/2006 7:20:35 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Now I am even more confused. If I install the game. Clean install which means that nothing has yet been done to anything. Now lets say I turn �historical ratings� OFF. When I do that, then Player1 is at the default of 70 and Player2 is at the default of 70. If I then manually set Player1 to 45, then Player2 remains at 70 (if I do nothing to Player2) right?

You are correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Well, FlashFyre stated in an earlier post that the French in Enhanced were 65/70/70 in 1940. And Robot replied, yes, he left the French at default and changed his TQ to 45. Somehow I think I got the terminology confused. Was robot saying he left the French at TQ70? And was FlashFyre saying the French should be TQ65? Hence my confusion as to what �default� meant.

No. There are 4 Ratings in the system, but only 1 Rating is shown in the Preference Screen field, and it overrides all the others. The 4 values are:
1. Leader Experience
2. Leader Morale
3. Troop Experience
4. Troop Morale
Each is set to a specific value in the mech.exe; each can be a different number. But the one shown in the Preference Screen, when the 'Historical Ratings' setting is turned off, is the Troop Experience value. If you use the Historic Ratings, with a 65/70/60/60, for example, your units will have Base 65 Leader EXP, Base 70 Leader MOR, Base 60 Troop EXP, and Base 60 Troop MOR. If you turn OFF the Historical Ratings, you switch to a 60/60/60/60 effective Base value, because the Troop Experience becomes the 'standard' setting, and overrides all the others.

In this case, robot turned OFF the Historic Ratings, thereby leaving the French side at the 70 Base Experience Level. The 'default' is 70 by code; if changed manually, it becomes the 'new' default for any games begun afterwards. Only by turning the 'Historic Ratings' back ON can you return to using the varied values in the mech.exe table.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vahuser

Now, as many of you know, TQ65 is actually superior to TQ70 due to the way purchase points are spent by the computer. Perhaps this is what FlashFyre was saying?

No, that is not what I was saying. But it is true in a way that Ratings of 69 and lower are more cost effective than Ratings of 70 and above; this is due to the Unit Cost Discount applied to units bought whose Base Rating is less than 70. At 70, the full OOB Unit Cost is paid; at <69, a 25% discount is applied, meaning these units only cost 75% of their OOB Unit Cost.

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