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Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/12/2007 9:25:52 AM

Dragoon 45

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If my information is correct, the Germans in France in early 44 took some old French armor and mounted 8-12 81mm mortars on it. Don't have the exact number of how many were produced but the source I have says that at least 50 were built.

My question is can the AI handle a vehicle with multiple indirect fire weapons on it? My understanding is that all the mortars were loaded first and fired simultaneously. These multiple mortar tracks were used exclusively on the Western Front according to the source. Depending on crew size and how much ammo was carried these tracks could possibly get off 3-4 full salvos per turn, which could mean some unlucky Allied Unit could be receiving 24-48 mortar rounds per turn from one vehicle.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/12/2007 9:41:28 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

If my information is correct, the Germans in France in early 44 took some old French armor and mounted 8-12 81mm mortars on it. Don't have the exact number of how many were produced but the source I have says that at least 50 were built.

My question is can the AI handle a vehicle with multiple indirect fire weapons on it? My understanding is that all the mortars were loaded first and fired simultaneously. These multiple mortar tracks were used exclusively on the Western Front according to the source. Depending on crew size and how much ammo was carried these tracks could possibly get off 3-4 full salvos per turn, which could mean some unlucky Allied Unit could be receiving 24-48 mortar rounds per turn from one vehicle.

Oh, god --yet another hermaphrodite vehicle. You say 50 were built? Can you verify it? What's the source? What units were they attached to? Do you really want to put this thing into the game, Jack? Jeez, it sounds like nothing more than a bastardized rocket-launcher.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/12/2007 2:09:44 PM

m10bob

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Confirmed: The Germans employed many ex-French halftracks and converted them to different roles.
Some were mounted with 16 French 81mm mortars in two rows at the rear of the unit.They could be pre-loaded for simultaneous firing.
This was called the Mittlere Gepanzerter Zugkraftwagen S303(f).
Other variations included mounting a Pak40 l46 (similar in appearance to the PZkw 251/22..
Another mounted the 15cm Panzerwerfer 42, similar to the Maultier.This was called the S307..
BTW, the multiple mortar units were encountered in Normandy.

Source:Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2, Chamberlain and Doyle,(what else?)

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/12/2007 5:13:19 PM

Alby

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Only the Mortar in slot 1 would fire "indirect"
the others would only fire "direct"
see Japanese knee mortar squads for comparison.
Unless you created some "Mortarx16" weapon, like the 'Barx2'...ect ect....

< Message edited by Alby -- 1/12/2007 5:25:40 PM >

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/12/2007 8:13:11 PM

FlashfyreSP

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Alby's correct...the game only recognizes the #1 weapon slot for indirect fire, unless the Unit Class is Offmap Artillery. So it could be represented that way; but you would need to build a new weapon, since there are only 4 weapons allowed per unit. To have 8 or 12 mortars, you'd need a Mortarx2 or Mortarx3 weapon, with the correct stats for HE Kill (bit of a toughie there).

The Germans were very "handy" at "McGyvering" vehicles they captured; almost every French armoured vehicle saw some sort of "jerry-rigging" to mount better German weapons in place of the inferior French ones. However....most of these vehicles were used by garrison troops in France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and other occupied territories. Rarely did they see battle, except during the Normandy campaign when many were encountered in the early days.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 2:00:31 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Alby's correct...the game only recognizes the #1 weapon slot for indirect fire, unless the Unit Class is Offmap Artillery. So it could be represented that way; but you would need to build a new weapon, since there are only 4 weapons allowed per unit. To have 8 or 12 mortars, you'd need a Mortarx2 or Mortarx3 weapon, with the correct stats for HE Kill (bit of a toughie there).

The Germans were very "handy" at "McGyvering" vehicles they captured; almost every French armoured vehicle saw some sort of "jerry-rigging" to mount better German weapons in place of the inferior French ones. However....most of these vehicles were used by garrison troops in France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and other occupied territories. Rarely did they see battle, except during the Normandy campaign when many were encountered in the early days.

Hmm...that makes me wonder if the term "jerry-rig" came from that habit, or did it have something to do with the strapping of "jerricans" on vehicles?

This is also a reminder that we really need more unit slots, or a second German OOB set (ala the French -- how in the heck did they rate that in the first place?

)

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 1/13/2007 2:14:23 AM >

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 2:32:03 AM

Goblin

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The term is either 'jury-rigged', or 'jerry-built'.

Edit: I even found a link! My high school English teacher would be proud.

http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/jerry.html

< Message edited by Goblin -- 1/13/2007 2:44:06 AM >

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 2:41:47 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

The term is either 'jury-rigged', or 'jerry-built'.

Edit: I even found a link! My high school English teacher would be proud.

http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/jerry.html

Danke schoen, Dr. Goblin. Now you can go back to anatomical research on the porn sites.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 2:43:53 AM

Goblin

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LMAO! People know me too well.

I remember being lectured on my word-use knowledge by my 12th grade AP English teacher for writing a short story and getting the term wrong in the story. Always stuck with me...

Goblin

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 3:13:22 AM

h_h_lightcap

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A Goblin took AP English in High School>>>>>>>>

But did he pass???

HH

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 3:19:03 AM

Goblin

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Sort of. I did have to make up some work during the summer.

English was 7th period, and I hated it, so I seldom went.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 1/13/2007 3:28:59 AM >

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 3:34:40 AM

NoX

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That vehicle is already in the game in the Czech OOB unit-055 mSPW S307(f) there is also the version for troop transport (APC) and the one armed whit a 75mm AT gun in the OOB. The weapon is currently moddeled similary to a rocket launcher that is one 81mm mortar in weapon slot 1 whit a ROF of 16 (the number of tubes).

Try searching the net whit SPW S307(f) or S303(f) to find more info. The germans captured many french halftracks and converted them to various uses during ww2.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 4:12:14 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoX

That vehicle is already in the game in the Czech OOB unit-055 mSPW S307(f) there is also the version for troop transport (APC) and the one armed whit a 75mm AT gun in the OOB. The weapon is currently moddeled similary to a rocket launcher that is one 81mm mortar in weapon slot 1 whit a ROF of 16 (the number of tubes).

Try searching the net whit SPW S307(f) or S303(f) to find more info. The germans captured many french halftracks and converted them to various uses during ww2.

One problem, though: except for Rocket-classed units, the ROF is maxed at "9", so the "16" won't be any different than the "9" when it comes to rounds fired in one mission.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 5:56:10 AM

Dragoon 45

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Thanks guys for the Info and confirmation. I was interested in this weapon because I wanted to see if it could be modelled in the game. From what some of you have said it does not sound like it can be accurately modelled.

I have alway thought the lethality of mortars in the game is underrated. From personal experience, I would much rather be fired on by artillery than mortars. Mortars with their much higher rate of fire and pound for pound more lethal warhead are pure death on troops in the open. The only thing worse than mortars in my experience is rockets, although they are much less accurate.

Some of you may not know this, but mortar rounds have a much higher explosive payload than normal artillery. The HE content in an 81mm mortar shell is equal to that of a 105mm round. A 4.2in round has as much explosives in it as a 155mm. Mortar rounds do not suffer from near as much stress when fired as normal tube artillery so the walls of the shell are much thinner, hence more explosives in the shell than a similar tube artillery round. The fragmentation effects were probably about the same due to little thought in the design of shells to provide uniform fragmentation during this period. If anything, the mortar rounds probably produced better fragmentation due to the thinner shell walls. Conventional WW II artillery shell design paided little attention to fragmentation effects, i.e. there was no uniform sized fragments from the rounds. The size of the fragments produced depended on the vagaries of chance in most cases. Modern artillery rounds in some cases have notched wire inside the casing to produce uniform sized fragments, but this is a fairly recent development. Shrapnel rounds except in limited anti-aircraft applications were very rarely used during the war.

In an earlier thread, artillery effectiveness was cussed and discussed. I don't really want to reopen that issue, except to say I did not see anyone mention battle drills for infantry under indirect fire. SOP for troops in the open taking indirect fire is to immediately move out from under the fire. The Squad/Plt Ldr indicates a direction and distance and all members of the unit immediatedly move in that direction at a run for the indicated distance. To go to ground in that type of situation is more or less a death sentence for troops caught that way. The only real way to survive is to get away from the fire. Unfortunately, the AI does not model this behavior for infantry caught in the open under indirect fire. With this in mind, modelling the true effectiveness of artillery vs troops in the open I believe can not be done in this game. So like many things else in the game compromises were made and I believe a workable one was reached in this case.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 6:09:12 AM

Goblin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

Thanks guys for the Info and confirmation. I was interested in this weapon because I wanted to see if it could be modelled in the game. From what some of you have said it does not sound like it can be accurately modelled.

Flasfyre,

What would be the downside to listing this unit as a rocket launcher in the unit class to model its multiple tubes?

Goblin

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 7:57:08 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

Thanks guys for the Info and confirmation. I was interested in this weapon because I wanted to see if it could be modelled in the game. From what some of you have said it does not sound like it can be accurately modelled.

Flasfyre,

What would be the downside to listing this unit as a rocket launcher in the unit class to model its multiple tubes?

Goblin

Hmmm....none that I can think of. As a Rocket Unit, like a Nebel, it would get the high ROF for the weapon...oops, just thought of one thing: it would use the "screaming meemie" soundeffect for rockets.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 9:36:14 AM

Goblin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
oops, just thought of one thing: it would use the "screaming meemie" soundeffect for rockets.

Yuck. Still, to model it better, it might be worth it.

Goblin

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 1:37:17 PM

264rifle

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unless your unit has an experience rating of over 100 your practical rate of fire is 6.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 2:01:03 PM

NoX

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP
One problem, though: except for Rocket-classed units, the ROF is maxed at "9", so the "16" won't be any different than the "9" when it comes to rounds fired in one mission.

Hmmm... I run a test and whit a ROF of 16 the vehicle in question which is classed "SP Mortar" fired 22 shots. When I turned the ROF down to 12 it fired 16 shots as it should. For comparison a german 81mm mortar has a ROF of 7 and fires 9 shots.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 6:21:19 PM

Alby

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BTW, there are quite a few "Captured" jerry rigged french/german stuff in the Czech oob.

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 7:03:48 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

BTW, there are quite a few "Captured" jerry rigged french/german stuff in the Czech oob.

I like the "Diana"..Great gun, but with walls that high, it just reeks of "TARGET"...
Obviously not the same guy who created the Nashorn..
BTW, I have a paperback called Panzer Aces of WW2 and it shows the Nashorn really was an effective unit for "fire brigade" type work....

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 7:29:34 PM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

BTW, there are quite a few "Captured" jerry rigged french/german stuff in the Czech oob.

I like the "Diana"..Great gun, but with walls that high, it just reeks of "TARGET"...
Obviously not the same guy who created the Nashorn..
BTW, I have a paperback called Panzer Aces of WW2 and it shows the Nashorn really was an effective unit for "fire brigade" type work....

That unit is in the German OOB in Enhanced.
"76mm Auf ZgKw"

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 10:47:52 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

The term is either 'jury-rigged', or 'jerry-built'.

Edit: I even found a link! My high school English teacher would be proud.

http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/jerry.html

Danke schoen, Dr. Goblin. Now you can go back to anatomical research on the porn sites.

Ist es nicht heiss "Dr Goblin" mit umlaut?

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 10:54:50 PM

KG Erwin

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Dr G�blin? (I found my notes on typing umlauts

)

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/13/2007 11:16:15 PM

Goblin

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I'm not a doctor, but I do play one on the wife...

Goblin

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/20/2007 12:33:09 AM

Bernie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I'm not a doctor, but I do play one on the wife...

Goblin

TMI! TMI!

And I'm sure your wife is thrilled you just announced that to the whole world...

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/20/2007 1:16:01 AM

Goblin

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What's she gonna do, shut me off?

Can't scare a condemned man with the threat of death.

Goblin

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RE: Multiple Mortars on a single vehicle? - 1/20/2007 3:38:26 AM

azraelck

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You'd be suprised what a wife can do to even a condemned, cursed, and dead man when she wants to. ;)

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