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OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:06:56 AM   
Knavey

 

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From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline 		A friend of mine likes to draw pictures that he finds in books. A while back he stumbled across the picture below and drew it. He gave the picture to me and thought it was a group of pilots stationed in Alaska. It looks to me like a Flying Tigers outfit, but I was wondering if anyone knows this picture in particular, so he can correctly identify it?

Thanks,






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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:11:22 AM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Well, lots of units used the tigermouth on their planes - i think i just saw a program on the RAF Battle of Britain where some of their planes had them (i did a doubletake... )

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:15:54 AM   
Knavey

 

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Status: offline 		Interesting...I figure its a longshot that someone will recognize this exact picture, but thought it was worth a try.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:17:30 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		I would be an AVG group, Alaskan Warhawks had a different style of Shark mouth.

RAF 112 Sqn used the Shark mouth before the AVG,

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:24:24 AM   
kilowatts


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From: Howell,NJ, USA
Status: offline 		I also can't really id the picture. But speaking of the RAF, the plane drawn has it's id letter shown on the underside of the nose. This was quite common in RAF units to help everyone pick out the correct a/c from the front while it was on the ground. Did USAAF units even have plane id letters?

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:28:09 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kilowatts

I also can't really id the picture. But speaking of the RAF, the plane drawn has it's id letter shown on the underside of the nose. This was quite common in RAF units to help everyone pick out the correct a/c from the front while it was on the ground. Did USAAF units even have plane id letters?


Certainly some bombers did (at least on the side) - and i think some (most?) fighters. Not sure about the front lettering, though.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:42:42 AM   
argaur


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Status: offline 		i have seen a lot of sharkmouths now (112 squadron) and none of them had a Letter there.... but the uniforms are typical from raf pilots i think...

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:46:10 AM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Well, all these guys appear to be wearing life jackets, i think - did the AVG do that? i thought most of them operated well inland for the most part.

Something strikes me as British about this pic (which is one reason i mentioned this at the outset...)

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:48:18 AM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Yeah that gear looks much closer to RAF issue than anything the AVG would wear.

Also common sense would seem to suggest that a group of pilots wearing their life preservers is worried about having to parachute out over or ditch into the water - a situation which I think would be much more common for the RAF than the AVG.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 12:54:20 AM   
MemoryLeak


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Status: offline 		this isn't much help unless you happen to be familiar with such things, but the airman standing upright appears to have wn emblem on the left front of the vest. And the person nealing to his immediate left looks like he has large chevrons on his sleave. Or it may be my eyesight.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 1:00:35 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beren

i have seen a lot of sharkmouths now (112 squadron) and none of them had a Letter there.... but the uniforms are typical from raf pilots i think...


i looked up some 112 Squadron photos, but they all were from the Desert (and didn't have the letter on the front of the a/c). But, so far i haven't seen any BoB photos of them.

Most of the Desert pilots weren't wearing anything like this type of flying gear.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 1:47:06 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The helmets look to be RAF issue. The sharkmouth was used by quite a few units. The first were used in the Western Desert by RAF ground attack units. The AVG copied them.

Many USAAF planes had letters on the side, but not in the Pacific. When the USAAF starting operating in British airspace, they agreed to use RAF standards for identfying aircraft. Every squadron had a 2 letter code and then each aircraft within the squadron had a unique letter. The USAAF also carried this practice to the MTO.

Often times the RAF would put the individual plane letter on the nose, or somewhere else visible from the front so crews could find their aircraft easily. I don't know of any US groups/squadrons that did that, though it was possible.

My best guess for the location of the picture would be Italy, sometime after the Allied invasion. Probably in the winter, or cooler months of the year. The unit is probably an RAF ground support squadron flying Kittyhawks. The version could be any version of the Kittyhawk. The nose of all of them looked similar. The British distinguished between the P-40B/C and P-40E and later by giving them different names. The early P-40s were Tomahawks and the P-40E and later were Kittyhawks.

Bill

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 1:49:49 AM   
Feinder


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Status: offline 		I've seen that picture before...  Hm.  Gonna have to poke around...

-F-

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 2:24:01 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

this isn't much help unless you happen to be familiar with such things, but the airman standing upright appears to have wn emblem on the left front of the vest. And the person nealing to his immediate left looks like he has large chevrons on his sleave. Or it may be my eyesight.


Three large chevrons with what looks like a crown above - and the single seat aircraft - indicates a flight sergeant pilot (equivalent rank to staff sergeant in the army), which you could use to assist in dating the photo - if memory serves, all pilots in the Cth air forces were officers in 1939, and the sergeant and warrant officer pilots were products of the empire air training scheme (which got started after the war got started). So the first graduation gives you a "not before" date.

The 112 Sqn P40s flew in Tunisia in early 1943 and may there have conducted missions over the Med - see "duel in the desert" here: http://www.aviationartprints.com/p40_kittyhawk.htm. Earlier missions when in the DAF could well have involved flying over the Gulf of Sidra etc so the Mae Wests are not out of place.

They then went on to Italy see 4th pic here: http://www.p40warhawk.com/Art/VernonRabbetts/P-40N/P-40N.htm. Maybe the pilot depicted is Sgt Pilot G.F. Davis.

If the uniform colour is a monochrome rendition of the RAF blue gray "winter" uniform, as opposed to the Khaki "tropical" uniform, then maybe this is a photo from the Sicily/Italy part of the campaign.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 3:02:15 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey





"Look, this is the car park. So the Nags Head must be around here somewhere."

Best wishes,


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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 3:30:54 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey





Gerald thought that the newly instigated anti-litter campaign was getting a tad too intense.

Best wishes,


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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 3:36:22 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey





"OK. So it's 1 prawn curry, 2 chicken tikka massalas ..."

Best wishes,



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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 3:48:13 AM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey





Gerald just knew that it was all going to end with a group hug.

Best wishes,


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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 3:57:16 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Clarifications,

112 didnt fight in the BoB, I havent seen RAF Sharkmouths from the BoB.

112 flew in the Western Desert Air Force with Tomahawks from mid 41 & Kittyhawks.

The men pictured look USAAF to me, RAF in the Desert were a little more scruffy.

I think many pilots wore the Mae West, a lot of action took place near the coast or on Convoy Cover duties.

As its a drawing it could bear no actual resemblence to aircraft or crew uniforms.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 4:03:32 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Status: offline 		Neither of them is drinking Coca-Cola - they are definetely not Americans.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 4:05:52 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Clarifications,

112 didnt fight in the BoB, I havent seen RAF Sharkmouths from the BoB.

112 flew in the Western Desert Air Force with Tomahawks from mid 41 & Kittyhawks.

The men pictured look USAAF to me, RAF in the Desert were a little more scruffy.

I think many pilots wore the Mae West, a lot of action took place near the coast or on Convoy Cover duties.

As its a drawing it could bear no actual resemblence to aircraft or crew uniforms.


OK - you are right - the 112 Squadron was already in Egypt at the time of the outbreak of war.

After thinking on it, i saw the shark-mouthed British aircraft on a show about the BoB (not sure if it was a P-40, though), however, we know how they can just fling in stock footage. On the other hand, maybe it was another squadron.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 4:08:52 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

I think many pilots wore the Mae West, a lot of action took place near the coast or on Convoy Cover duties.


i mentioned the life jackets to try to exclude the AVG. Any unit operating near the ocean/Med would probably wear them.

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 4:43:41 AM   
Knavey

 

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From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline 		The drawing is actually of a picture that he was using as a template so it should be fairly accurate.  He drew the picture a few years ago, so my buddy doesn't remember which book he copied it from.


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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 5:08:12 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i mentioned the life jackets to try to exclude the AVG. Any unit operating near the ocean/Med would probably wear them.


I'm sure it's not the AVG. The AVG was merged into the USAAF about the time they got P-40Es. The P-40 in the picture is definitely a P-40E or later. There is the possibility that it is a P-40 from the CBI, but I have a feeling it is somewhere in Italy.

Bill

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 5:10:37 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i mentioned the life jackets to try to exclude the AVG. Any unit operating near the ocean/Med would probably wear them.


I'm sure it's not the AVG. The AVG was merged into the USAAF about the time they got P-40Es. The P-40 in the picture is definitely a P-40E or later. There is the possibility that it is a P-40 from the CBI, but I have a feeling it is somewhere in Italy.

Bill


It is true that the AVG got absorbed by the USAAF, but it was (sort of) the same unit by a different name - and (iirc) they retained the shark mouth motif.


< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/18/2007 5:25:00 AM >

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 5:22:21 AM   
rtrapasso


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Here is a pic of an RAF pilot - note the helmet, and shoulder insignias to compare with the drawing above...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/18/2007 5:35:01 AM >

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 5:56:18 AM   
Knavey

 

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Status: offline 		Nice pull on the chevrons rt!



Here is the top that was cropped on the initial scan. Don't know if the exhaust port configuration changed on the different models of P-40, but there may be a clue on the top couple of inches of the picture.





Attachment (1)

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 6:13:38 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Here is a pic of an RAF pilot - note the helmet, and shoulder insignias to compare with the drawing above...


That is only one style of RAF helmet. I believe that is a Type C.

Here is a page of USAAF gear: http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear.html

The USAAF headphones are very square.

On this site, the first picture shows RAF pilots wearing the rounded headphone type helmets: http://www.danielsww2.com/page3.html

Bill

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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 7:15:38 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		If there is no scoop on top of the prop spinner its a P40 F or L, aka Kittyhawk II or IIA, with a Packard Merlin instead of an Alison, extensively used by both the RAF and USAF in the MTO. The carbs look sort of about right. So I'm sticking with my (and Bill's) earlier view. It could even be a Sth African, NZ or Aust. squadron from that theatre.

BTW, I am sure the circular patch on the Sgt Pilot in rtpasso's cockpit shot has the word "Canada" over the wings, which actually doesn't help that much because the dominions contributed aircrew to RAF squadrons, as well as having their own squadrons, and squadrons manned by their personnel in the UK and elsewhere nominally named as RCAF or RAAF etc but provided with machines by and maintained by the RAF. Those personnel wore their own countries uniforms, which differed in detail from the RAF uniform, eg the RAAF winter uniform colour was midnight blue as opposed to RAF blue-gray, but were in general terms the same in style, cut etc.



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RE: OT: Need help IDing a WW2 picture - 1/18/2007 7:25:57 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Its got 6 wing guns, that makes it a P-40E or later doesnt it??

Plus it looks a lot like a training situation, all the pics I could see of 112 Sqn or AVG have them pilots in anything but a uniform.

IanR,

rtpasso's picture is of someone sitting in a Spitfire cockpit, he is only comparing helmets. And I don think they are that similar, inthe drawing they appear oval , in the pic they look round with stratight sides.

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