RE: Gray vs Camo

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Gray vs Camo

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RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 6:19:01 PM

Dixie

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quote:

My personal preference is for gray. The intent of camo is to confuse the shape of the ship and it does a very good job for my poor old eyes. And, as you note, Matrix went with gray in the original set.

Personally I prefer camo. My eyes aren't as old as Don's though

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Post #: 31

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 7:10:28 PM

Monter_Trismegistos

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I prefer ships without camo. Maybe a compromise? Shipshides without and shils with camo?

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Post #: 32

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 7:36:39 PM

Bliztk

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You can do two versions, so everybody is happy

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Post #: 33

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 7:45:30 PM

JWE

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The more I think on it, the more I like the Cathartes method; a soft switch.

That way, we will not need to put upgrade ships in additional slots, or worry about whether one kind of cammo pattern or another is appropriate for 1942, 43, 44, etc..., or have to create a hybrid art set.

Let's say every Tennessee will have bm #0180, but the soft switch replaces the PH stock grafik with a 1943 Tennessee in 1943. Similarly, for cammo people, they can create a Measure 41 folder, a Measure 42 folder, a Western Approaches folder, a dazzle folder, yadda yadda. Since changing art does not effect a game in progress, this seems to be an ideal solution. A player can have a set of subfolders for 1942, 43, 44, 45 holding only those ships whose appearance changed in that year.

No additional "upgrade" bm slots are required; no arguments about how a particular ship was painted and when; you can add radar; add/delete scout planes; keep or replace the X turret in certain JP destroyers with AA; you get the idea.

In order to provide the cammo folks and the upgrade folks with opportunity, it seems that vanilla is the way to go for a basis.

Who wants to carry this flag?

JWE

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Post #: 34

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 8:03:59 PM

Akos Gergely

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Second to that JWE!!!

Perhaps Dixie or Fremen should pick this up still ;-), or maybe you?

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Post #: 35

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 8:12:03 PM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

Second to that JWE!!!

Perhaps Dixie or Fremen should pick this up still ;-), or maybe you?

Not me!! I like hazegray and Maizuru gray, along with some house colors, rust and red lead. I have enough trouble with shelter decks than to have to cammo them too. Dixie and Fremen seem to know a bunch about cammo patterns .. sooooo

JWE

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Post #: 36

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 8:15:07 PM

Dixie

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Plain gray is just so dull

Whilst I prefer to have camo, I can understand why some folk want a plain gray scheme. I'm happy to go with either, but camo schemes are that bit more realistic.

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Post #: 37

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 8:25:07 PM

Mike Wood

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Hello...

Prefer grey. Camo obscures art.

Bye...

Michael Wood

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Post #: 38

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 8:49:57 PM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

Prefer grey. Camo obscures art.

Bye...

Michael Wood

I agree.
Camo is very pretty but it works too well in this game.

Of course, that dosen't mean you guys who like camo can't make your own alternative set(s)...

B

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Post #: 39

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 9:03:53 PM

Dixie

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What is being counted as camo? Obviously dazzle schemes obscure the art, but how about the USN measure 22? Or the RN camo circa 1945 (Gray with blue 'block')?

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Post #: 40

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 9:07:55 PM

Cathartes

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Camo or no camo, the point is really mute. We can have 2,3,4 or more official versions with the Jonesoft Generic Mod Enabler. Why not just have a base ship art set that is gray, and then another that has later years' camo art? Have a consistent background for all, and make the switch with JSGME to please your preference. No data switch here, just art. Everyone gets their favorite flavor, everyone happy.

Someone asked about my art earlier in the thread. I'm open to contributing, but I'm going to complete a stock set of aircraft that represent different stages throughout the war to use with JSGME. If I have the energy, I'll then do a CHS set. For me the different art adds tremendously to historical accuracy, variety, and atmosphere.

Allied plane tops are about 2/3 finished. Here's a cropped piece of an art file over 2600 pixels long. Each plane top has a matching side. I'm insane, and don't know if I'll ever finish.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 41

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 9:27:01 PM

CobraAus

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just throwing in a couple of ideas here
I had started a similar project for RHS about 2 weeks before this thread stated
reworking the air panels
resetting the art so air slots matched bitmaps (eg slot 77 = bitmap 77 etc) + realigning
all the tops and alpha in doing that I created an overlay tool to work in with a 60x37x75 grid - the 37 being the center line for each top and the overlay having each block numbered
so you can see placement (see sample below) as each of you use differant art packages its not hard to set up and helps a lot
For ships I was also thinking of setting up what I call a carving block
a panel that would hold 100 ship sides/shils also with a numbered overlay - (have not work out how many panels yet)so that instead of working with individual panels until ready to carve out a full set, place all the ship art on to the panels - this would also help in scale and ID missing art, as you would see all ship together for comparison- then when all ships are done carve out a complete set and rename

hope I made some scense here

Cobra Aus

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Post #: 42

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 10:29:53 PM

JWE

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Howdy,

Workin on the JP subs; using 1 meter per pixel in order to get detail. Very sucky jpg below of a Type A1/A2. Does anyone have a picture of a 1-AM (I-14 was representative, I believe)?

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Post #: 43

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 10:46:08 PM

JWE

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BTW, since I am painting vanilla, does the community prefer Maizuru gray (kinda blue) for JP subs?? Sample below, compare with post above (still sucky jpg)

Still looking for pic of type 1AM

JWE

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 44

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/23/2007 11:24:16 PM

Big B

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Considering the background we are using I like the latter - stands out better (and will on any background)

B

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Post #: 45

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 1:07:10 AM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Considering the background we are using I like the latter - stands out better (and will on any background)

B

Yeah, me too.

ok then, here's the JP subs in Miazuru. Comments welcome. Still looking for a pic of the type 1AM.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 46

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 1:43:37 AM

Dixie

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How are these? Some Royal Navy stuff in mostly gray. The stock art numbers are on top, if CHS is different then thay are listed beneath the stock

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Post #: 47

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 1:58:37 AM

JWE

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Looking good Dixie. Can you replicate those in hazegray, at 4 feet to the pixel? It seems that is the scale Mike Wood and Don are looking for, at least for warships and aux at and over (way approx) 350' loa. Shoot me a pm if you can do that. Are you familiar with parabolic scaling, or Hx/Lx? If not, no worries; if so I gotta project for you.

JWE

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Post #: 48

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 3:30:01 AM

TOMLABEL

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I've been watching this thread with great interest and mostly agree with the aspects of scaling art to a certain degree before losing detail. The idea of using the Jonessoft Generic Mod Enabler is by far the best idea to cater to the needs of folks like me who do like the different paint schemes used during the war. I am currently using this utility with Cathartes plane sides and really enjoy the ease of switching between artwork panels. As JWE mentioned, this mod would also be useful in creating subfolders for the different paint schemes of ships used during various time periods of the war. Likewise, the mod could also be used (to some degree) for ship upgrades as well; however, it will be hard for me to completely break away from using a new slot for this. For example, you could have a class of ship that has a noticable structural upgrade in a particular month/year. But, as we know, the actual time the upgrade takes place is dependent on each individual ship in that class depending on when/where the ship docks for the upgrade as well as ship damage levels. Each ship in that particular class could upgrade at different times. I guess this would be up to the users as to what level of accuracy they wish to achieve.

I do also agree with standardized backgrounds for ship sides, but I think it would also be beneficial if each nationality had its own separate backdrop, ie. US, AUS, RN, etc.

On the subject of standardized non-camo colors for ships, I would like to suggest that instead of gray, that a blue color be used - at least for the US Navy. I'm not too well versed on ship color schemes of the other allied navies. US Navy ships were never painted solid gray for any decernable time period during the war. On average, all USN capital ships spent most of their wartime career painted in 5N - Navy Blue. There are few exceptions to this, but I believe this color would be more representative that the color of gray.

Otherwise, I think a standard air side set and ship set (including optional sets for camoflage and upgrades) is a great idea and I'm looking forward to seeing the results of everyone involved.

Count me in as well!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 1/24/2007 3:43:39 AM >

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RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 3:34:32 AM

TheElf

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I think the Gray vs. Camo problem is relatively easy to resolve. I'm not a ship guy but I do use Photoshop. And I have tried the odd ship art. In photo shop you could have one guy, JWE for example create the Base ship in Haze or Maizuru gray and save the file to his own hard drive. This would be set A.

Next JWE emails that ship to Dixie, Cathartes, or any of the camo experts. Assuming they have Photoshop they just open up the ship and create a new layer..."Camolayer42'" or "Western Approacheslayer" etc.
This would be Set B

Similarly JWE emails the "vanillalLayer" to Big B or someone else who adds a "44'Dazzle Layer" instead of the "Camolayer42" that Dixie or Cathartes puts on. The result????

JWE and Don get there geriatric friendly vanilla ships, Dixie getsd his Camo, Carthares gets his soft touch, Cobra gets his unique Lego-look, yadda yadda....

If you approach like an assembly line all the ship will look the same, ride at the same height in the water and you could pick and choose what set you wanted to use based on the date....and it would cut down on the work load for everyone.

Thoughts?

< Message edited by TheElf -- 1/24/2007 3:50:59 AM >

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RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 3:42:44 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I think the Gray vs. Camo problem is relatively easy to resolve. I'm not a ship guy but I do use Photoshop. And I have tried the odd ship art. In photo shop you could have one guy, JWE for example create the Base ship in Haze or Maizuru gray and save the file to his own hard drive. This would be set A.

Next JWE emails that ship to Dixie, Cathartes, or any of the camo experts. Assuming they have Photoshop they just open up the ship and create a new layer..."Camolayer42'" or "Western Approacheslayer" etc.
This would be Set B

Similarly JWE emails the "vanillalLayer" to Big B or someone else who adds a "44'Dazzle Layer" instead of the "Camolayer42" that Dixie or Cathartes puts on. The result????

JWE and Don get there geriatric friendly vanilla ships, Dixie getsd his Camo, Carthares gets his soft touch, Cobra gets his unique Lego-look, yadda yadda....

If you approach like an assembly line all the ship will look the same, ride at the same height in the water and you could pick and choose what set you wanted to use based on the date....and it would cut down on the work load for everyone.

Thoughts?

I like it. Good idea. I use Paint Shop Pro to get the same colors for each bitmap.

TOMLABEL

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RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 3:52:29 AM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I think the Gray vs. Camo problem is relatively easy to resolve. I'm not a ship guy but I do use Photoshop. And I have tried the odd ship art. In photo shop you could have one guy, JWE for example create the Base ship in Haze or Maizuru gray and save the file to his own hard drive. This would be set A.

Next JWE emails that ship to Dixie, Cathartes, or any of the camo experts. Assuming they have Photoshop they just open up the ship and create a new layer..."Camolayer42'" or "Western Approacheslayer" etc.
This would be Set B

Similarly JWE emails the "vanillalLayer" to Big B or someone else who adds a "44'Dazzle Layer" instead of the "Camolayer42" that Dixie or Cathartes puts on. The result????

JWE and Don get there geriatric friendly vanilla ships, Dixie getsd his Camo, Carthares gets his soft touch, Cobra gets his unique Lego-look, yadda yadda....

If you approach like an assembly line all the ship will look the same, ride at the same height in the water and you could pick and choose what set you wanted to use based on the date....and it would cut down on the work load for everyone.

Thoughts?

I like it. Good idea. I use Paint Shop Pro to get the same colors for each bitmap.

TOMLABEL

Crikey, I like it too. Welcome aboard the boff ya. I have email & will travel.

JWE

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Post #: 52

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 3:59:43 AM

Cathartes

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Digging the ships and subs!

Like the ship idea, but sans my involvement. Others excel beyond what I could do, and I'm an ignoramus on naval colors and camouflage, and what ships looked like what after their specific overhaul.

It would be cool to see the old US BBs that survive Pearl get their sporting new superstructure line and goodies after their refits.

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Post #: 53

RE: Standardized Artwork Set - 1/24/2007 4:40:03 AM

Halsey

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Someone needs to make this a comprehensive set of files for the Japanese and Allies.
Don't just throw a lot of ship graphics out with no corresponding bitmaps.
As I already see starting to happen.

Backs and Shil Folders should be completed for both sides.

Sub shils need bottom hull graphics.

You need stock and CHS versions.

And no, I'm not volunteering.
I'm already doing a non-standardized size set of files for CHS.
It's taken months of constant upgrading.
Someone younger, with more time on their hands should do it.

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Post #: 54

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 4:48:15 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL...
Count me in as well!

I am so glad you stood up! I thought I would have to say someting to get you to step up to the plate!

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Post #: 55

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 5:54:23 AM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Considering the background we are using I like the latter - stands out better (and will on any background)

B

Yeah, me too.

ok then, here's the JP subs in Miazuru. Comments welcome. Still looking for a pic of the type 1AM.

Love the subs JWE!! You really do have a talent for minute detail!!

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Post #: 56

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 6:45:15 AM

TOMLABEL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL...
Count me in as well!

I am so glad you stood up! I thought I would have to say someting to get you to step up to the plate!

Glad you were thinking about me

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Post #: 57

RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 9:23:37 AM

Akos Gergely

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JWE, with all due respect I think Dixie's ships are already to scale and IMHO it would be a shame to loose all the detail on them buy just simply greying them out.

Also I think these photo-imaged details offer way much more detail then do hand drawn ones (just compare your subs with the ones on Fremen's site), so I think we should consider going this way as well, or betetr yet if you still want vanilla ships then dumb down these with photoshop). And please note that this is not to say that I do not like your art! I would be struggling to make such. Formerly I used Big Bs very nice ships, but I think even them are lacking in detail accuracy to for example Dixie's ones. Hand drawns ones are simply a bit pixellated and "toy like" - this is due to the technology. Let me add again please that this is not meant as a negative comment! I really appreciate thise art sets.

Standardization is OK, but why not use then a generic backdrop? Also different ships even in the same navy bore different camos. So to be honest I'd hate to have grey ships when one can have for example Cathartes' fine, differently coloured but still same style plane sides. And please don't tell me that your eyes can differentiate between those planes, but not among the coloured ships...

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RE: Gray vs Camo - 1/24/2007 1:26:17 PM

kokubokan25

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I read with many attention the above replys. It's obvious the gray/camo is a personal preference. Matrix and moderators prefer gray, me and others prefer camo. I spent many months (as many people knows) making a complete stock ship side art and, sincerely, it's so much to me start again making a HUGE number of bmp all in gray mode. Moreover when now the community have many art modders with fine work (more better than mine) like JWE, TOMLABEL, Dixie, BigB, and others.
The people knows the real time work is needed to re-done the stock to only one modder? I'm know, very sure.

A question: would be more easy pick a modder style, like JWE (with scaled ships), to coordinate the huge work, and let him choose other companions to help making some ship packs??? I mean, one make battleships, other carriers, etc..
I think my japanese carriers are best than others (sorry

), however it's not true to other ship classes.

Besides, i dont use the Photoshop, i make my work over big scans previously cleaned without any camo and painting over that drawing. I cannot work propely over material make by other modders like TheElf say.

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