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8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire

 
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8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 1:15:19 AM   
MrQuiet

 

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		From the manual
quote:

- Air units on an island will Op-Fire at non-submarine units and units moving strategically
via transports that move out of the sea region containing the island.


Here is the situation:
2 German Fighters on Sardina
1 WA HB on Gib

Shouldn't the 2 German Fighters op-fire on the WA HB flying from Gib to N. Italy?
The WA HB is a unit. It had to fly through and out of the sea region containiing the Island

-MrQuiet
Post #: 1
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 1:27:34 AM   
Bubble

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		I think the key is "...units moving strategically via transports...". A HB flying to N Italy isn't moving strategically via transports.

(in reply to MrQuiet)
Post #: 2
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 1:39:39 AM   
MrQuiet

 

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		No, it says "and units moving strat via tranny."

The opfire works for malta/sicily.
(edit) I thought I had seen it work for malta/sicily but just tested and there was no opfire against air units flying from Italy to Africa.

Opfire works properly against naval units.





< Message edited by MrQuiet -- 1/27/2007 3:10:06 AM >

(in reply to Bubble)
Post #: 3
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 1:43:35 AM   
GKar


Posts: 617
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline 		That's not his point though, let me leave out the less interesting part of the sentence: "Air units on an island will Op-Fire at non-submarine units (and units moving strategically via transports) that move out of the sea region containing the island."

I guess the fighters did actually not op-fire at the bomber, but my understanding is that they should as well. I guess someone did either forget to include aircrafts in the op-fire routine or did that deliberately.

(Never mind, MrQuiet was faster than I.)

< Message edited by GKar -- 1/27/2007 1:56:59 AM >

(in reply to Bubble)
Post #: 4
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 2:37:15 AM   
Bubble

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry, I'm a little slow on the "non-submarine units" thing.

Maybe it's a typo, and should be "non-submarine naval units". I'm quite sure I've used US and Japan CAGs to take out transports in the Pacific when there were planes on the island in the middle of the sea zone, and never been op-fired at by air units. But boats always get smoked.

(in reply to GKar)
Post #: 5
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 6:48:24 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I think it is supposed to be non-naval submarine units.

(in reply to Bubble)
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RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 11:15:38 AM   
rjh1971


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Joined: 12/13/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

Here is the situation:
2 German Fighters on Sardina
1 WA HB on Gib

Shouldn't the 2 German Fighters op-fire on the WA HB flying from Gib to N. Italy?
The WA HB is a unit. It had to fly through and out of the sea region containiing the Island


They don't op-fire, here is what happened to me and Tica in our tournament game: he had one fighter and a TB on Sardinia, N. Italy was ungarrisoned. Thinking that an invasion force, would be op-fired I tried to knock out axis airforces resulting in on one allied HB and one CAG damaged for one axis fighter destroyed, the TB took two suppresion points.
I tried the invasion and to my surprise no op-fire from Sardinia was triggered. I thouhgt it could be a bug and that the game was treating the TB as adived sub since it had suppresion points, so i tried the same in a new game with axis airforces in Sardinia
without suppresion and still no op-firing.
Big setback for Tica, 60 supplies lost for reconstruction + production in queu lost!!!

Whether this is the way it is supposed to be or not, i don't know I haven't check the manual, but beware of this situation. Airforces in Malta do Op-fire at land forces being transported to Africa, IMO airforces in Sardinia should do the same with N Italy.

(in reply to MrQuiet)
Post #: 7
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 11:28:04 AM   
GKar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rjh1971

IMO airforces in Sardinia should do the same with N Italy.

I agree, Italy is a sensitive place anyway.

(in reply to rjh1971)
Post #: 8
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 3:56:59 PM   
MrQuiet

 

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Joined: 4/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I think it is supposed to be non-naval submarine units.


It should probably say non submarine naval units.

But it would seem very resonable that fighters and cags stationed on an island would be scrambled to deal with enemy air units flying in there sea region. CAP or no CAP.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 9
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 4:11:48 PM   
mikemcmann

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline 		I think the idea is that naval vessels (non sub ones) move SLOWLY past an island and the patroling fighters have time to scramble several times in a turn to have a go at them.

With air power, they can fly High, around, etc. to avoid the CAP of the island. Now if the CAP was ACTUALLY placed in the sea zone surrounding the island, then they would attack ANYTHING flying or sailing through the area.

I think it is a principle of speed of targets.....

My thoughts since I think it was our game you are referring to MrQ ! hehe...  

Later

Mike

(in reply to MrQuiet)
Post #: 10
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 4:32:53 PM   
MrQuiet

 

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rjh1971

quote:

Here is the situation:
2 German Fighters on Sardina
1 WA HB on Gib

Shouldn't the 2 German Fighters op-fire on the WA HB flying from Gib to N. Italy?
The WA HB is a unit. It had to fly through and out of the sea region containiing the Island


They don't op-fire, here is what happened to me and Tica in our tournament game: he had one fighter and a TB on Sardinia, N. Italy was ungarrisoned. Thinking that an invasion force, would be op-fired I tried to knock out axis airforces resulting in on one allied HB and one CAG damaged for one axis fighter destroyed, the TB took two suppresion points.
I tried the invasion and to my surprise no op-fire from Sardinia was triggered. I thouhgt it could be a bug and that the game was treating the TB as adived sub since it had suppresion points, so i tried the same in a new game with axis airforces in Sardinia
without suppresion and still no op-firing.
Big setback for Tica, 60 supplies lost for reconstruction + production in queu lost!!!

Whether this is the way it is supposed to be or not, i don't know I haven't check the manual, but beware of this situation. Airforces in Malta do Op-fire at land forces being transported to Africa, IMO airforces in Sardinia should do the same with N Italy.


Very interesting rjh1971.
So I tested it.
Your observation is correct from Gib to N. Italy.
Land forces were able to amphib with no opfire from air forces on Sardina.

So I tested it with sicily/malta
Land forces were able to amphib from S. Italy to anywhere in Africa with WA air forces on both sicily/malta.

Not what I would have guessed according to the rules.
CAP seems to be the only reliable way in the med, but it does cost supply every turn.
The biggest problem though, with having to use cap is that air units moved there strat can not be put on cap the same turn. (i.e. 3 months to get set up and get in the air)

quote:

My thoughts since I think it was our game you are referring to MrQ ! hehe...

Later

Mike


Yes, our game is what triggered my questioning.
When I saw your HB fly from Gib (Can b17s really land on Gib?) to N. Italy unimpeeded I was baffled.

Mike expect the turn in the next hour or two.

-MrQuiet

(in reply to rjh1971)
Post #: 11
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 5:28:22 PM   
mikemcmann

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline 		I think we added an extra long runway......they take off over the water that is for sure! hehe....(either that or we have a big catapult installed....) 

As for the CAP, I use a simplistic brain process and simply guarantee the CAP by flying the planes over the sea space. I have never relied on the island op fire rules....kinda bizarre sure, but the way I guarantee the opfire. If the op fire works when they are on the island, I take it as a bonus! hehe...

Live and learn that is for sure...! :)

I anxiously await the turn! :)

Mike

(in reply to MrQuiet)
Post #: 12
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/27/2007 9:43:20 PM   
WanderingHead

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline 		The summary as discussed is:

1) Air units are only op-fired upon by enemy fighter/CAG units in the _same_ region that the air units move into and then out of, or through a protected narrows. They are not op-fire on by the island rules, nor by the movement rules for through two sea zones adjacent to the air unit's land base.

2) the island op-fire rules apply against units that move into the sea zone, and then out to another _sea_zone_ (i.e. not a land zone).

Based on discussions in dev, this was intended and should have been clarified in the manual.

My understanding was that one strong reason for #2 is that otherwise Malta would have _too_ strong of an ability to shut down all Italian operations in N Africa.

(in reply to mikemcmann)
Post #: 13
RE: 8.2.1 Conditions That cause Op-fire - 1/28/2007 12:12:26 AM   
GKar


Posts: 617
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

My understanding was that one strong reason for #2 is that otherwise Malta would have _too_ strong of an ability to shut down all Italian operations in N Africa.

Oh yes, that might be the case.

(in reply to WanderingHead)
Post #: 14
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