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Campaign Style? - 2/3/2007 6:17:45 PM   
dutch08

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 1/13/2007
Status: offline 		Will campaigns be styled after CC5 or CC3?
Post #: 1
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/3/2007 8:35:37 PM   
7A_CavScout


Posts: 26
Joined: 12/13/2006
Status: offline 		CC3

(in reply to dutch08)
Post #: 2
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/4/2007 12:03:20 AM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Yes CC3 style.

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Post #: 3
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 1:02:08 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		a back ward step!

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Post #: 4
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 2:29:54 AM   
general billy


Posts: 915
Joined: 9/28/2003
From: London UK
Status: offline 		I thought the campaign in cc3 was the best!!

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Post #: 5
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 3:07:28 AM   
Randall Grubb

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

a back ward step!


Oh fer Ghu's sake! It's CC3!!! Git yer head out of yer duffle bag!~

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Post #: 6
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 5:24:55 AM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		no, he's right it is a backward step as far as the campaign goes. I'll take 2, 4 or 5 anyday over 3's linear crap. It does have some other positive things the others don't though. I would have started out with a re-do of CC2 first.

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Post #: 7
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 1:33:10 PM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		The campaign idea in cc2 was much better even with its faults.i still play it now {cc5 mods}gjs and so on.so if you think thats good {cc3 campaign} you have not played much mate!pull yur head in.

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Post #: 8
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 1:35:37 PM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		there is a mod for cc2 out http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/

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Post #: 9
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 5:12:37 PM   
Wilco

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 2/5/2007
Status: offline 		I didnt really like the linear style of CC3 campaignes either. What i do like however, is the way you can build your own force. Considering the pro's and cons of "buying" a flame halftrack versus a light tank for example. And the way your losses actually matter for battles to come. I still remember me yelling at the computer when i lost another t34 :) It sucked me more into the game really.

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Post #: 10
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/5/2007 8:16:55 PM   
Beeblebrox

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

it is a backward step as far as the campaign goes.
Erm... how can it be a backward step when it's a re-release of the game?  It's neither a backward step nor a forward step.  It's a re-release...  


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Post #: 11
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/6/2007 2:34:08 AM   
NimitsTexan

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 4/30/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Still, it would have been nice if they could have tacked a CC2 or CC4/CC5 type campaign onto CC3. It would admittedly have involved a redesign, rather than an just an overhaul of the game. But, IMO, CC3 had the worst campaign (and CC2 the best).

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Post #: 12
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/6/2007 3:21:44 AM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beeblebrox

quote:

it is a backward step as far as the campaign goes.
Erm... how can it be a backward step when it's a re-release of the game?  It's neither a backward step nor a forward step.  It's a re-release...  




You know what I ment...after playing the others going back to the linear campaign "again" isn't very appealing. CC2 or 5 would have made a better start. so there

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Post #: 13
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/6/2007 4:28:42 AM   
Beeblebrox

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		As it happens, I think the CC3 Campaign System as a Strategic 'Campaign' System is horrible.  It is a most ridiculous experience to play as the Germans, and win EVERY battle from Barbarossa to Moscow and back to Berlin, and lose?????

However, it has fantastic virtues in terms of very compelling gameplay (the forcepool/point system/resupply/Unit upgrade/Unit Monitor etc., is very pleasing, even if it is in it's own way somewhat unrealistic), and as a competitive battle system (particularly H2H), is unsurpassed.  Anyone who was around on the Zone in the heyday of CC3 must testify to that! 

I would even suggest that it is still very good for 'Operations' (limited set of battles).

But I was kinda pulling your leg a bit ;) and taken in good spirit I am pleased to see

On a more sober note, we have no intention of doing anything very radical with any re-release such as re-develop the Strategic layer.  Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort.  I believe it will be far more productive and worthwhile to put this kind of effort into subsequent releases, and try and create something superior.  Just my opinion...

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Post #: 14
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/6/2007 10:04:56 PM   
Ragbag

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beeblebrox

I believe it will be far more productive and worthwhile to put this kind of effort into subsequent releases, and try and create something superior.  Just my opinion...

X-ackly!
Also, I don't have a problem with it, I wouldn't want an ahistorical outcome to WWII, I have fun when I wind up in the ruins of Berlin regardless. If I could have just one improvement in the old system, it would be MORE SLOTS! Big maps are great, now send me some troops! (Mclellan's lament.)

(in reply to Beeblebrox)
Post #: 15
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/6/2007 10:40:59 PM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragbag


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beeblebrox

I believe it will be far more productive and worthwhile to put this kind of effort into subsequent releases, and try and create something superior.  Just my opinion...

X-ackly!
Also, I don't have a problem with it, I wouldn't want an ahistorical outcome to WWII, I have fun when I wind up in the ruins of Berlin regardless. If I could have just one improvement in the old system, it would be MORE SLOTS! Big maps are great, now send me some troops! (Mclellan's lament.)




Ugh!! not another gotta replay history lover, I will never understand that especially in a game like this. it's
fun to switch sides and change things. Which in CC3 you can't no matter what you do which seems to defeat the whole purpose of some of the features it offers. I would have liked it to end in Leningrad : )...all complaints aside I'll even take CC3 over most games these days, I just love the series and think the re-releases are a good thing for the future of it. My only complaint really is that I would rather have seen CC2 first as that's got the goods

(in reply to Ragbag)
Post #: 16
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/6/2007 11:28:16 PM   
Beeblebrox

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		"More Slots" - A common enough cry from the CC Community, but be careful you may get what you ask for... and a note of caution:

How many slots is enough?  Consider this very carefully.  If you use the current game model, then there is I believe a limit beyond which the quality of the game will actually degrade.  Why?  The Human Condition.   For example, the USMC uses the rule of 3, because that has been evaluated to be the OPTIMUM number of "things" that an individual can control effectively.  More than that, and performance starts to degrade.

So the consequence of this is that if there are too many things to control, your abilities to stay in control will be seriously compromised, and I think that would become a big turn off for this kind of game player.  Just too much to do.  Where's the 'fun' in that?

But, there is no doubting the appeal of the prospect of being able to play with more Teams and Units, so the question is more about how the game can deliver this, and that I believe would mean some changes to the game engine.  As it happens, we have been and are looking into this with future production(s), so you may yet get what you ask for!

The real life solution to this issue is to delegate.  It appears superficially to be a simple concept, but I think that to make it work in a game like this is not going to be so easy.  The road to disaster is paved with good intentions, but that should only caution us against ill-considered production, not prevent us from trying! (which we have every intention of doing).  Assuming we can find the resourcing needed for such an ambitious enterprise, we intend to crack open a few surprises for you.  It has my support...

On the subject of the 'Strategic Layer' (for want of a better description), this is also a much sought after feature, but is also something that appears on the surface to be something simple enough, but is it?  Close Combat is ruthlessly Real Time Tactical.  The implementation of any Strategic Layer involves integrating a game clock, so how do these issues co-exist?  There is the 'Total War' approach - the Strategic Game Play level which can be optionally foight as real time battles.  Is this the way CC should go?  I think it could be made to work, but I am not convinced that this is necessarily the best way, as I am always looking for something better, and I certainly do have my own ideas about this.

We welcome any comments and suggestions on this (or any other) CC issue, trying to keep in mind that it should deliver good game play, and the term 'game' is very important.  We have already been involved with producing Military Sims based on CC (in this case using CCM), but I would not offer it to you as a game.  It's a fascinating balance, and one that can be got very very wrong, but by the same token, could open up tremendous possibilities for compelling and absorbing game play.  I hope we have the opportunity to get there! :)  We are going to try, but Rome was not built in a day as they say, so it will be step by step; but then, I don't have a problem with that


(in reply to LitFuel)
Post #: 17
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/7/2007 9:57:45 PM   
Frank McNally

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 8/29/2003
Status: offline 		I loved the cc2 start layer. In 4 and 5 one key missing element was the effects of ambushes, espcially relevant for any reasonable delay type defense. In cc4 a small American force will be overrun with lopsided casualties if the german armor methodically plods across each map. The chance of success with a hidden AT gun is low in this scenario.

I had always thought it would be interesting if a defending force could deploy some forces to the between location connections. A mover when crossing a connection would be given the option to advance in column and move at normal speed (cross link in 1 turn), or with caution slowly (more than 1 turn to cross link). If forces are deployed and the crossing is fast, either the column takes some casualties automatically, or a ballt is created with them in column formation and with a tank being hit. If on cautious mode the defense forces devoted to the link are just automatically removed with light casualties to the mover, or a battle screen opens and the mover can hunt the ambushers down and the timer affects there space to space speed.

(in reply to Beeblebrox)
Post #: 18
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/7/2007 11:39:44 PM   
Wargamer39


Posts: 20
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline 		I have owned CC 2 thru 5.  CC 2 was my favourite for the campaign style, use of supply/reinforcement screen and the variety of maps and situations (not to mention my fave book is A Bridge Too Far).  I never did complete CC IV and V, as I didn't like the repetitive maps and poor AI.  CC 3 was a bit of an anomaly to me.  While the units and maps were very good, a linear and not very engrossing campaign along with poor AI led me to shelve it as well without completing it.  My AI issue:  I play as the German, get thru Moscow and Stalingrad and build up a good force.  Once I am on the defensive, the Russian's that wouldn't attack!!!  I need them to, but they sit back.  This leads me to either sacrifice units to get the Russkis started or withdraw from the map and hope they attack on the next one.

In the end, CC 2 was the epitome of the CC series.  Can you make an Eastern front game with a more dynamic system like CC 2???  If yes, I'm in.

(in reply to Frank McNally)
Post #: 19
RE: Campaign Style? - 2/8/2007 1:20:20 AM   
Beeblebrox

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Once I am on the defensive, the Russian's that wouldn't attack!!!
THis describes one of the biggest shortcomings of the CC games.  Unfortunately, the AI has a tendency to 'Camp' on VL's, and this is particularly bad in CC3.  There are ways to moderate this by careful scenario creation, particularly VL placement (and some have tinkered with the Data files to some effect), but as the essence of the behaviour is hard coded, it is difficult to really change that tendency without modifying the code.

quote:

a more dynamic system like CC 2?
Also an interesting comment.  The CC2 Campaign System is still very artificial as you really do not have true strategic choice as the game decides or limits where and what you can do.  However, it does have features which give a more satisfying strategic perspective than the others even if they are somewhat psuedo (and no less enjoyable for that...).  CC4 and 5 have a truer Strategic Map presentation, but many (liek yourself0 do not seem to find it more satisfying.  I too find it rather cludgy.

However, CC2 has by far the best Tactical play in my opinion.  This is partly due to the different way the maps are handled (under the hood), and the fact that the maps are much smaller on the whole.  This allows the AI to perform better because it can do more work per unit time.  The results are better decisions, and therefore better action.  I believe it gives the best Single Player challange of all the CC games.

In principle, I would like to see the artificial limitations of CC2 removed, and the game play extended to a more comprehensive strategic layer.

Thanks for the contributions.  Keep them coming.  You are also welcome to make your contributions at our Forums where there has been quite a lot of discussion on the next significant CC production we intend to try and undertake.  I'm afraid nothing is going to happen very quickly on this one, but all these things are being taken into consideration   We have called it CC6 for want of anything better for the time being...

http://www.closecombat.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=90


(in reply to Wargamer39)
Post #: 20
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