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RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 4:53:39 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Rickover theorized that the reflection of the blast wave off the bottom shoved the plates inwards after they had been blown outwards. From what i read, most (not all) engineers that have studied this find it a dubious proposition.

Dubious? Even if we know that such reflection and shoving of the plates inward actually happened (and it is 100% sure) when french BB Liberté sunk?



No - not that it couldn't happen, but that the geometry and the measurements of the depth, size of the crater, etc. made at Havana harbor didn't correlate with the established hydronamics... thus the theory that this occured in the case of the Maine is dubious.

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Post #: 31
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 6:28:11 PM   
Redan


Posts: 129
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: a Quonset hut in Shangri-la
Status: offline 		So: you have a turret with three rifled guns each of which fires an armor piercing or high explosive shell that weighs about as much as an old volkswagen bug/ they are delivered to the turret from an elevator through a shaft from the magazine; a couple bags of black powder wrapped in silk are stuffed in behind the shell? is this right so far? no coins in the pockets of crew, no wedding rings, no St Christopher medals, gold chains, earrings; static electricity...spark... black powder explosion... backdraft down the elevator shaft to magazine... turret of battleship sounds like dangerous place to be.


Sidebar: Imaginary e-mail: Just because the battleship blew up I don't think it's fair my opponent should get the points-- he didn't do anything to earn them! I want this fixed in the next patch!

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Post #: 32
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 6:33:22 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		yep....thats why saftey interlocks were important. US BB's had metal scuttles to keep flash from reaching the power magazines. Got to look at em close up when visiting the Massachussetts. Still....it was scary to examine the diagram in Gazarke's US Battleships regarding the Iowa explosion. It backblast went down the barbette pretty far but the scuttles prevented any getting into a powder mag IIRC.



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Post #: 33
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 8:49:44 PM   
BLUESBOB

 

Posts: 219
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From: Fullerton, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

The US battleship had a turret explosion during an exercise. The Navy claimed it was suicide/sabotage by a gay sailor on the turret crew that had been outed.


i've read at least one book and several articles on this... the whole business was very curious. The sailor in question had recently made over his insurance policy to a crewman who was apparently the object of his affection, and was acting very strangely.

After the turret the crewman worked in blew up, the sailor's family alerted the Navy with their suspicions that the sailor had sabotaged the turret and caused the explosion.

The Navy was happy to latch onto this... they claimed that they had detected some foreign substances that should not have been there, and thought they were part of an explosive device. They also claimed that the loading proceedures could not have caused an explosion. So the Navy assigned the blame of the explosion on the sailor.

The family (maybe other family members?) THEN claimed the sailor couldn't have done it. After a long investigation, it was discovered that the loading procedures COULD have caused the explosion (esp. with the aged propellant bags)... the Navy then "exonerated" the sailor.

But notice: the Navy did not actually clear the sailor of explosion. it was decided that the explosion could have been caused by the propellant bag (and maybe or even probably it was) - but one can not say with certainty that the sailor didn't do it, and the final conclusion kind of glosses over the family's original suspicions and the sailor's behavior.

So, what was the cause? Probably it was from the rapid loading procedure combined with the aged propellant bags, but this is just a best guess...


I just got through reading about his extensively on the internet. Yes, the Navy never did determine what exactly caused the explosion. But as for these two men, Hartwig and Truitt, exhibiting "bizarre behaivour", this was just gossip from the other sailors. It seems both men were quiet, religious, and non-drinkers...that's what passed for bizarre in the service!

Probably the biggest red flag that should have sent the Navy's investigation...and subsequent smear campaign against these two men...was the fact that Hartwig had never been assigned to that turret before. He only that day found himself working there as a last minute replacement. Since the sabotage of the turret would have taken knowlegde that one EVEN WORKED in the turret...it seems incredible that the Navy jumped to this conclusion.

Later investigations have found that the Master Chief Gunner's Mate in charge that day was making unauthorized changes to the loads. The gun that blew was shorted some powder bags, and there was an over-ram. This is more than likely the cause of the explosion.


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Post #: 34
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 9:17:11 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		The navy needed a scapegoat because re-activating and/or maintaining the Iowa's from the 80's onward was always a highly politically charged battle with Congress. Last thing the Navy would have wanted was to give [pardon the pun] the enemies of the Battleship {read big costly relics crowd} that kind of "ammo" (dangerous ships likely to explode due to old style tech)

Not to say it exonerates the smear campaign but i can see how the incident would have made many brass nervous.

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Post #: 35
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 9:26:02 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:


I just got through reading about his extensively on the internet. Yes, the Navy never did determine what exactly caused the explosion. But as for these two men, Hartwig and Truitt, exhibiting "bizarre behaivour", this was just gossip from the other sailors. It seems both men were quiet, religious, and non-drinkers...that's what passed for bizarre in the service!


i am not sure the "bizarre behavior was manifested on the ship, but was reported by the one sailor's family (based on letters, conversations, etc.) - but it has been a number of years since i read the book, and i don't recall all the circumstances.

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Post #: 36
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 10:21:02 PM   
Redan


Posts: 129
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: a Quonset hut in Shangri-la
Status: offline 		So it wasn't homosexuals who damaged the battleship, but MOTHRA who ate holes in the silk powder bags?

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Post #: 37
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 10:25:12 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Redan

So it wasn't homosexuals who damaged the battleship, but MOTHRA who ate holes in the silk powder bags?


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Post #: 38
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 10:38:27 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You make that sound like such a surprise...

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Post #: 39
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 11:26:16 PM   
Capt Henry_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Hi Ron

Nice to see you back on the forum. I agree with the post somewhere above about Massie's "Castles of Steel" - fantastic book. Has anybody read his other books? What are they like?


While I think "Castles of Seel" was tremendous, I actually enjoyed Dreadnought more. "Peter the Great" and "Nicholas and Alexandra" are also very well done. Highly recommended reading.

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Post #: 40
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 11:49:53 PM   
Tiornu

 

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Status: offline 		The Italians will tell you quite zealously that the Leonardo da Vinci was destroyed by sabotage, and they even caught the guy who did it.

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Post #: 41
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/23/2007 11:58:00 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yeah, like the Germans "caught" the guy who burned the Reichstag...

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Post #: 42
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/24/2007 2:16:17 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu
The Italians will tell you quite zealously that the Leonardo da Vinci was destroyed by sabotage, and they even caught the guy who did it.

He was the same one who sank Benedetto Brin?


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Post #: 43
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/24/2007 5:26:26 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Hi Ron

Nice to see you back on the forum. I agree with the post somewhere above about Massie's "Castles of Steel" - fantastic book. Has anybody read his other books? What are they like?


'
"Dreadnought" is very good. You will learn more about the Britsha and German royal family that you ever wanted to know and about Bismark and jackie Fisher too...

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Post #: 44
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/24/2007 5:35:18 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		Less well known is the loss of HMS Bulwark to a magazine explosion at Sheerness in November 1914.

http://www.nhcra-online.org/20c/bulwark.htm

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"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
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Post #: 45
RE: BB spontaneous combustion - 2/24/2007 5:36:15 AM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Pretty sure the only British dreadnougt lost to a non-combat related magazine explosion was HMS Vanguard at Scapa Flow during WWI. Italian Leonardo da Vinci met the same fate aroumd the same time too IIRC.


HMS Vanguard
by David Horne
Stand still! Stand Still! Ye leaping waves
And mourn along with me
For a gallant ship has crossed the bar
Of the great eternal sea:
A flash, a roar, a blood red flame,
Then a huge overwhelming cloud,
And a thousand souls are wrapped within
The ocean's winding shroud.

Ten thousand doors do ever lead
To death upon the deep:
Sometimes they open silently
Sometimes our hearts do creep
When a blinding flash, and a deafening crash
Sends a good ship to her doom
And her gallant crew are hid from view
Within a watery tomb.

Oh! Little we know of the price men pay
Who guard the silvery sea,
Who keep our homes inviolate
Each town, each winding lea;
We reckon it up in paltry cash
In bars of gleaming gold
But the ransom's dyed in a ruddy tide-
The blood of warriors bold!

So bare your heads ye landsmen all,
Who live at home in ease,
And pray the Lord that ye worthy be
Of the men that hold the seas;
Of the mighty Vanguard who are stood
So valiant in the strife,
Of her gallant crew that flashed from view
Through death to endless life!



< Message edited by sprior -- 2/24/2007 5:55:59 AM >

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"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



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Post #: 46
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