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RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc.

 
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RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 10:26:57 AM   
christof139


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Problem is FoF uses Brigades, and the Regiments within those Brigades were usually (probably close to 95% of the time) armed differently, and the Regiments themselves frequently had Companies armed differently. So, it's impossible to be accurate when using a Brigade unit as in FoF, you can just try to balance out the mix, and that's what I like about the game's Minie Rifle, as it can represent such a mix. Even the Liege Rifle can be construed to represent a mix of SBs altered to RMs.

The Irish Bde. at Antietam was unifromly armed with SBs, but whether they were all the same type and model of SB I don't know, but it doesn't matter, since they were all similar in performance, so the game's 1 SB is good enough IMHO.

I have the Arty. understood very well, and could give you my idea of organizing the Arty. into classes, and this is mainly the BIG GUNS, as the game already has a good and accurate mix of Arty. types already, and the 24, 32, 42pdr. guns are just wonderful to see and use, as are the 8-inch Howitzer and Mortars.

The Improvised Naval and Fort Arty. to me represent the mix of 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 18, 24, 32 and 42pdr. guns, shell guns, and howitzers that were used. No way nor sense to go any farther with that mass of a mess of varied guns. Down in Texas, even some older Mexican Army and American Army Arty. guns were used by the CSA. Interesting to read about, but with the scale of FoF, not necessary nor practicle to duplicate every blasted gun type used.

Chris





(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 31
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 10:33:18 AM   
christof139


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quote:

By the By, remember on the LUs or Elites units, it was never about what weapons they had, it was what the men had, in a perfect world, you would want to be sure to give your best men the best weapons and place them into the best places for combat, but wars are not perfect and lots of the LU's became that way, while proving themselfs

by standing there ground, when all else ran, by chargeing when the smart thing to do was to stand, to fight on and die, when the smart thing would of been to run and hide

Weapons didn't make the LUs, the men did and there Guts and there Honor and what they gave up

(we got a change in, to be sure that the LU's get a morale bump when they come in, so they are better able to show that trait)


Many times there was a marked increase in the performance and morale of a unit when it got better or much better firearms. Getting better firearms could provide quite a morale boost, and it seems the game does this to some degree. It seems when I upgrade a unit with better small arms that sometimes its Dispostion goes up and maybe its morale by 0.1 or so. Could be or maybe this doesn't occur due to the weapons upgrade but occurs just because of time passing and the Commander(s) in the container, I don't know.

Chris

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 32
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 10:36:23 AM   
christof139


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quote:

You just don't know when to quit, do you?


Neither do you buddy. You don't acknowledge anyhting that others say, and are rather rude about it.

Glad I wasn't in your unit.

Chris


(in reply to chris0827)
Post #: 33
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 2:58:52 PM   
christof139


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quote:

Yes this was vital to the South since they couldn't produce enough weapons of their own. Stonewall Jackson was well know for getting all the booty possible from the field, especially what the South needed most, medical supplies. In the Valley campaign where he gained so much from Nathan Banks that his troops called him "commissary" Banks and again at Manassas Junction where he captured the huge supply dump of the Union Army.


Both sides used captured supplies and weapons. After the Battle of South Mountain, I believe it was a veteran New Jersey Regiment that scoured the battlefield and replaced its SBs with abandoned CSA Rifles. The Kentucky Arty. Battery in Burnside's IX Corps at Antietam used 1 CSA iron 12pdr. howitzer that they had captured in West Virginia.

Both sides had details of troops tha would scour battlefields for anything usable, but it was perhaps more prevalent in the CSA Army. Ammo, food, blankets, hats, socks, shoes, Arty., caissons, limbers, battery forges, ambulances, wagons, antyhing that was usable would be used, or sent to the rear for repair, cannibalization or stripping of useful parts, or scrapping and recycling.

Chris


< Message edited by christof139 -- 2/24/2007 3:14:17 PM >

(in reply to GenGrunt)
Post #: 34
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 7:23:37 PM   
Ironclad

 

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I have just read about the battle of Perryville where union troops were infuriated to find that the departing confederates had stripped the union dead of their clothes/footwear leaving their old garments (often rags) behind. Some remaining confederate wounded suffered the backlash. Both sides tended to do this throughout the war but the confederate need was usually greater.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 35
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 8:13:06 PM   
christof139


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quote:

I have just read about the battle of Perryville where union troops were infuriated to find that the departing confederates had stripped the union dead of their clothes/footwear leaving their old garments (often rags) behind. Some remaining confederate wounded suffered the backlash. Both sides tended to do this throughout the war but the confederate need was usually greater.


This was done during and after every battle when practical.

Please read my previous statement: "Both sides had details of troops tha would scour battlefields for anything usable, ***but it was perhaps more prevalent in the CSA Army.*** Ammo, food, blankets, hats, socks, shoes, Arty., caissons, limbers, battery forges, ambulances, wagons, antyhing that was usable would be used, or sent to the rear for repair, cannibalization or stripping of useful parts, or scrapping and recycling."

Of course the CSA's need was greater as they didn't have a large industrial base and were being blockaded. Point is that in any war or catastrophe people will use whatever they can to help them survive. Sometimes CSA troops were actually better equipped and supplied than Union troops, mainly when the Union troops were on a raid or other operation behing enemy lines. In the 1864 Valley Campaign, when Hunter's Union Army penetrated deep into the upper or southern reaches of the Shenandoah Valley, his troops were living off the land out of necessity and design, and they became very ragged, and hungry, and low on supplies. They were in dire straits after Early arrived to reinforce the CSA's Valley Forces, and they had to skedaddle pretty quick.

Earlier in the war, such as when Perryville occurred, both sides were still a little bit naieve. As the war progressed, and both sides became worn and battlewise, they more frequently used what they could from the dead. Sometimes personal effects were stolen, but many times they were left on the dead. Many of the Union troops at Perryville were still green and naieve.

The CSA Army would have detachments of unarmed and ill-equipped troops that would follow in the wake of an advance to quickly gather weapons and ammo and whatever else they need and then move on to their units. This occurred at Cedar Creek and it seems at Murfreesboro, but many CSA troops were well clothed and equipped at murfreesboro, but quite a few weren't as far as small arms went. One tennessee regiment advanced without weapons, picking up any they could find as they advanced in the rear of their brigade. I think this occurred near the Round Forest.

I am very interested in the Trans. Miss. Theater, and the big problem there for the CSA was not having enough wagons to transport supplies around, and little railroads and river systems that trended in a north to south direction, thus making the transport of supplies from east to west very difficult. Kirby Smith did a fairly good job in partially alleviating the problem, but it was still there in a big way.

The CSA armaments, ordnance, and clothing industries were quite efficient in utilizing what it had, and repairing and converting/modernizing weapons, but as you know it was not nearly enough but it did help a lot, all considering.

The large distances and area involved in the war made supply and logistics etc. a nightmare for both sides.

Chris






(in reply to Ironclad)
Post #: 36
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/24/2007 9:40:30 PM   
Ironclad

 

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Thanks I had read your previous statement. My observation concerned the stripping of dead bodies. In the example of Perryville that included individual survivors taking clothes/footwear from a dead enemy and leaving their discarded clothes in a pile next to the body. That made the scene look even worse and undoubtedly contributed to the anger of the union troops; especially shocking for those experiencing their first battle aftermath.

The collection details you described were in operation there too and its certainly true that both sides became more hardened during the war and practiced battlefield scavaging for various reasons - necessity, denying the enemy or personal avarice.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 37
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/25/2007 2:38:36 AM   
christof139


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quote:

Thanks I had read your previous statement. My observation concerned the stripping of dead bodies. In the example of Perryville that included individual survivors taking clothes/footwear from a dead enemy and leaving their discarded clothes in a pile next to the body. That made the scene look even worse and undoubtedly contributed to the anger of the union troops; especially shocking for those experiencing their first battle aftermath.

The collection details you described were in operation there too and its certainly true that both sides became more hardened during the war and practiced battlefield scavaging for various reasons - necessity, denying the enemy or personal avarice.


Yeah, I understood what you were talking about, stripping the dead bodies and the fact that that would just add to the torment of green troops after their first or second battle. that became accepted to a large degree as the war went on.

That period with Perryville and Richmond etc., Bragg's and Kirby Smith's offensive, is very interesting, and i have read a lot, but still enjoy reading ot the Trans Miss. more. I think that period you're referring to and Murfreesboro may be rather high in my interests now, particularily Murfreesboro, and then Antietam and South MTN., followed by the 1864 Shenendoah campaign, and all the Naval and Combined Amphibious Ops. in the Trans Miss. I bounce around from time to time.

Stealing personal affects, such as family photos, watches, letters, was somewhat discouraged, and those things were used for intelligence gathering, but troops on both sides swiped them off the dead, also gold and silver teeth.

Is That your main interest, Perryville and Bragg's Offensive??

Well, for the last 10 minutes or so I have been looking for 2 books about Murfreesboro that I have recently read and been rereading, and Ii can only find one: 'Stones River, Bloody Winter in Tennessee', and the other I think has a title similar to 'Stones River, a Good Place to Die', something like that. I'll eventually find where the book dissappeared to someday soon I hope. They are both good books if you haven't already read them or have them.

Have to hit the hay now, Chris



(in reply to Ironclad)
Post #: 38
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/25/2007 2:49:04 AM   
decaturkev


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Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Hampton Roads, VA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

I have just read about the battle of Perryville where union troops were infuriated to find that the departing confederates had stripped the union dead of their clothes/footwear leaving their old garments (often rags) behind. Some remaining confederate wounded suffered the backlash. Both sides tended to do this throughout the war but the confederate need was usually greater.
[/quote

It was probably the Union officers who were outraged. Enlisted folk from both sides tened to be cordial betwen engagements. Sharing and swapping were prevalent.

_____________________________

Private, CSA
Norfolk Light Artillery Blues

(in reply to Ironclad)
Post #: 39
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/25/2007 1:38:46 PM   
Ironclad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

That period with Perryville and Richmond etc., Bragg's and Kirby Smith's offensive, is very interesting, and i have read a lot, but still enjoy reading ot the Trans Miss. more. I think that period you're referring to and Murfreesboro may be rather high in my interests now, particularily Murfreesboro, and then Antietam and South MTN., followed by the 1864 Shenendoah campaign, and all the Naval and Combined Amphibious Ops. in the Trans Miss. I bounce around from time to time.

Is That your main interest, Perryville and Bragg's Offensive??

Well, for the last 10 minutes or so I have been looking for 2 books about Murfreesboro that I have recently read and been rereading, and Ii can only find one: 'Stones River, Bloody Winter in Tennessee', and the other I think has a title similar to 'Stones River, a Good Place to Die', something like that. I'll eventually find where the book dissappeared to someday soon I hope. They are both good books if you haven't already read them or have them.



No its the first book on Perryville I have read although I have come across details in more general campaign studies. In ACW my preference used to be the western theatre although my interest in the east has been renewed. Presently I am looking at the Confederate counter-offensive in 1862 hence the Perryville book and one on Iuka/Corinth just purchased. Its the same author as one of those you mentioned which I would like to read at some time.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 40
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/25/2007 3:48:55 PM   
christof139


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quote:

No its the first book on Perryville I have read although I have come across details in more general campaign studies. In ACW my preference used to be the western theatre although my interest in the east has been renewed. Presently I am looking at the Confederate counter-offensive in 1862 hence the Perryville book and one on Iuka/Corinth just purchased. Its the same author as one of those you mentioned which I would like to read at some time.


Oh, I see. I have read about Iuka-Corinth in the past but that is not one of my favorites, but it is interesting as all heck because of all the CSA Trans Miss. troops that were involved. I guess disease really ravished both armies then. Bragg's Kentucky offensive is really interesting.

I am actually afraid I may have left that other Stones River book in a Dentist's office, I hope not. I hate it when I misplace things. We're having a little ice and snow storm today so i have to shovel etc. but am going to try and find that book today. It has a very accurate OOB in it that I used for the TalonSoft game mod.

Hee hee hee, Fat32 Corps with Gen. Fatcat Halleck woulf be neat to create in FoF, and I wonder if Halleck ever appears for the Union?? I am playing the Union now and having a hard time, as there are more Infernal Rebel Hordes than thee are my Glorious Defenders of Old Glory!!! And those other fellows have Whitworth Cannon and rifles, and they won't go away!!

Another good book IMHO is 'The Bloody Crucible of Courage, Fighting Methods and Combat Experience of the Civil War' by Brent Nosworthy. It deals a lot with tactics, and how some Generals incorporatedFrench Napoleon I and Napoleon III tactics as well as frederick tthe Graet of Prussia's tactics etc. into their own SOP's. The book puts things together pretyy good, idf you haven't read it. Can find it for a few $ now on Ebay, at Amazon and Abe books etc. in used and new condition. I have a paperback edition.

See, you got me interested in 1862 again, I have to load the TalonSoft Chickamauga game (it also has Murfreesboro in it) and find the bits and pieces of my mod files on my saved disk. of course I have to find the saved disk first, just like the book on Murfreesboro that dissappeared.

Chris

(in reply to Ironclad)
Post #: 41
RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. - 2/26/2007 4:32:28 PM   
christof139


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Found that other and newer book on Murfreesboro: 'The Battle of Stones River, No Better Place to Die', by Peter Cozzens. It was buried under some tax papers and what not.

Chris

PS: Halleck has appeared for the Union in my game!! He is assigned to a fort on the Potomac River, since I have no Division or Corrs for Halleck, I am being overwhelmed by the CSA and its British and French Allies.



< Message edited by christof139 -- 2/26/2007 4:49:56 PM >

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 42
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