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Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat

 
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Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/25/2007 8:08:46 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline 		I've played quite a bit of detailed combat and still haven't got the hang of when to charge or when to deploy skirmishers. My battles tend to end up being trading volleys untill the computer breaks, then trying to run down and surround the enemy units.

Does anyone have tips on when to charge and when to deploy skirmishers?
Post #: 1
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/25/2007 8:18:18 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge needs to write a primer for detailed combat , that is, if he has any time.

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quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 2
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/26/2007 12:09:17 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		not sure if a Primer is what is needed, pretty much, if it works, do it, if it don't stop it

Charges are mainly a do or die thingy, it can save a battle if done at the right time, but can also lose you a battle if done at the wrong time or you get the wrong results

but mainly, charge into the flank or rear of a unit (maybe best if the hex the defender is in a smoke filled hex, cuts down on the return fire)




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Post #: 3
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/26/2007 6:00:51 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

pretty much, if it works, do it, if it don't stop it


Pretty much sums up the art of war, don't it. The hard part is recognizing the difference.

I think I'll stick with not charging, when I lose Jeb Stuart and 2000 of the finest Virginians charging a artillery from behind I'd say charging artillery doesn't work. Though the computer loves to do it.

I don't think I've made a single successful charge, whereas in TalonSoft I had it down to rule of war "Only charge disorganized units, from the flank, when they have no retreat."

On skirmishers, I find them useful in line formation when expecting the computer to charge, or when closing on his entrenchments, they seem to help. Column skirmishers are the only choice in closed terrain, or fortress hexes. I can't decide if skirmishers do more damage then a plain column, but neither approach a line volley.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 4
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/26/2007 7:14:38 PM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
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quote:

Pretty much sums up the art of war, don't it. The hard part is recognizing the difference.

I think I'll stick with not charging, when I lose Jeb Stuart and 2000 of the finest Virginians charging a artillery from behind I'd say charging artillery doesn't work. Though the computer loves to do it.

I don't think I've made a single successful charge, whereas in TalonSoft I had it down to rule of war "Only charge disorganized units, from the flank, when they have no retreat."

On skirmishers, I find them useful in line formation when expecting the computer to charge, or when closing on his entrenchments, they seem to help. Column skirmishers are the only choice in closed terrain, or fortress hexes. I can't decide if skirmishers do more damage then a plain column, but neither approach a line volley.


Hi, I've had the same experience with you in charges in FoF, mainly they aren't effective from the front, flank, or rear, when in reality they coild be effective from any of those directions as you well know.

In the TS games I do charge and melee a lot, sometimes as 'soak-off' attacks, and sometimes as main attacks from the front, flank, or rear, and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, but the game engine seems OK in the TS games concerning charges and melees in that both sides get beat-up pretty good and the losing side usually routs, and that is fairly realistic. The charges in TS also simulate close range firing, and if you don't fire your charging unit before a charge, that unit will get a large bonus in the ensuing melee because it is at close quarters with loaded weapons. Ouch.

Chris


< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/1/2007 5:34:20 AM >

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 5
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/27/2007 2:32:11 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50
I've played quite a bit of detailed combat and still haven't got the hang of when to charge or when to deploy skirmishers. My battles tend to end up being trading volleys untill the computer breaks, then trying to run down and surround the enemy units.
Does anyone have tips on when to charge and when to deploy skirmishers?


I prefer to reserve charging until an enemy unit has become disordered. I always shake out skirmishers when I'm going into a firefight. It's worth the extra time as it reduces your own losses to enemy fire and in can help you reduce the damage from enemy charges.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 6
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/27/2007 4:39:38 AM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		I charged disordered enemy units in FoF, and from the flank or rear too, and not much happened. Sometimes yes, but not too often.

In those days, Charges were made to break and at least force back fully ordered enemy troops as well as disordered enemy troops. Ordered troops when hit in the flank or rear by a Charge should be in a big hurt. Terrifying to be caught in such a situation or similar, as in "Oh sh*t!!!" Also, many times when a Charge reached home, the defenders would retreat, as ythey didn't want to be involved in a melee, not always but many times.  Back and forth, back and forth the battle would sway at times.

Skirmishers didn't seem to be very effective, and I had some in woods that were taking heavier losses against the enemy unit they were firing at, which enemy unit was in close order in an open field. The Skirmishers were fresh and comparably armed. I also never read any accounts nor have seen in an Infantry manuals of the time that mention Skirmishing in column of Companies, and FoF has I believe a Skirmish Column formation. Regiments in the ACW and Horse and Musket days formed into linear columns of Companies to assault, not to Skirmish. A regiment thus formed might have one or two Companies deployed as Skirmishers in front of the assault column, but the assault column itself would not be formed in open order Skirmish formation. Know what I mean??

In the Nappy Wars TS games you can detach from a Regiment or Battalion and deploy individual units of Skirmishers, but you can't put the whole main unit into Skirmish order. In the TS ACW games you can only put the whole regiment into Skirmish Order, but all it does is help alert you to the enemy's presence if playing with the FoWar turned on. However, you can mod ACW games using the Nappy Era game engine and thus have small deployable units of Skirmishers.

In FoF you have to put a whole Brigade into Skirmish Order, which such tactical deployment rarely occurred in the ACW. However, as an abstraction it is OK when skirmishing with Brigade sized units in FoF because the game engine seems to have some parameters that treat units in Skirmish Order as a partial skirmish unit and a partial close order unit. Seems that way anyway. However, it would be nice to have say 20% or so of a Brigade's strength capable of being detached and deployed as Skirmishers in FoF. This probably wouldn't be hard to do programming wise, but maybe just time consuming. The Skirmisher sprites could simply be Sharpshooter Unit sprites thinnned out to maybe 40% density of sprites. Just an idea.

Chris




< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/1/2007 5:37:10 AM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 7
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/27/2007 5:38:29 AM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline 		One situation in which I learned not to deploy skirmishers in, is when you are entrenched. I had taken to deploying skirmishers to stop the AI's initial rush, only this time my unit had learned small unit tactics, and dodged the charge right out of the trenches, only instead of falling back they advance! Where that brigade was quickly instructed by the enemy on the correct direction to advance to the rear.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 8
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/27/2007 12:23:37 PM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
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quote:

One situation in which I learned not to deploy skirmishers in, is when you are entrenched. I had taken to deploying skirmishers to stop the AI's initial rush, only this time my unit had learned small unit tactics, and dodged the charge right out of the trenches, only instead of falling back they advance! Where that brigade was quickly instructed by the enemy on the correct direction to advance to the rear.


Ha ha ha!! F-troop!!! Advance to the rear!!!

Thanx for the tip. I just use Quick Combat now, because I can't understand Skirmishers in FOF and units deployed in a battle line not be ing able to move through woods and rough terrain, but close order columns seem to be able to sometimes. This mainly a movement cost allocation function though me thinks.

I will start using detailed combtat when the new patch arrives, and when I put my new compooter together, which should be soon.

There are some things I saw in Detailed Combat that I liked and some I didn't, but you have to get used to the system and I haven't yet. When initially played in Detailed battle I picked up somethings very quick and just plowed ahead, and won. However, I was lucky and had the game set at a lower AI level. So, I have to learn the system much better thanI do now.

Unfortunately, it all takes time. So, I will be diddling and learning Detailed Combat for quite some months to come, and I have to get my TSoft Murfreesboro and Antietam mods up and running again, besides TRWorld tasks.

Matrix is re-releasing the TSoft games, and apparently with a campaign system added, so that sounds interesting too, (OH no, another game!!) but I hope I can use the Units. bmp that i and others have created over the years for the original TSoft games in the new Matrix versions. I don't like the unit panel icons in HPS' ACW series, and prefer the old TSoft modified ones, but the HPS games are good and many mods have been made for them as you no doubt know. I can see this happening with FoF as time passes and new patches are released. A grand startegy game with the options to go to Detailed, Quick, and Instant Combat functions is very good to have, and gives options for everyone's preferences or tastes.

Would be nice to have a bit more detail in the Siege and Naval weapons purchase category, and a quick solution is to make all the Siege Guns except the little Coehorn Mortars available to the Navies of both sides, then you won't have navies armed only with Improvised or Uber Weapons.

Imagine a Fleet/Flotilla composed of four 10-Ship Flotillas or Divisions, with one Division having 24pdrs, one with 32pdrs, one with 42pdrs, and one with Dahlgrens or another large gun. That would add a great deal to the appeal and somewhat to the historical accuracy of FoF, and be a lot of fun.

Chris

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 9
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/27/2007 11:42:40 PM   
Mike13z50


Posts: 344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline 		Imagine being able to shell troops from a riverboat, like the Lexington at Shiloh.

Imagine putting a XX Dahg.... on the gunboat.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 10
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/28/2007 12:12:58 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		In SPI's Shiloh (eons ago) the Lexington was a force to be reckoned with.

_____________________________

quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 11
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 2/28/2007 7:48:47 AM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Imagine being able to shell troops from a riverboat, like the Lexington at Shiloh.

Imagine putting a XX Dahg.... on the gunboat.


At about 93 - 94,000 pounds or so, one of those 3 or 4 of the XX" Dahlgrens that were actually produced, would probably sink the gunboat with its weight, or at least tip it over to one side, and if centrally mounted the big gun would simply crash through the deck and hull due to its own weight. The 3 or 4 XX" Rodmans that were actually produced would do the same with their 100,000 plus pound weight.

Now a XV" Dahlgen, one of the 86 that were produced, might be feasible, as would the way over 1,000 9" and 11" Dahlgrens that were produced.

I couldn't resist.

Chris, the ACW Geheim Statts Polzei,



< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/1/2007 5:33:20 AM >

(in reply to Mike13z50)
Post #: 12
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 3/1/2007 6:18:26 PM   
ABridgeTooFar

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline 		Its spelled Geheim Staats Polizei.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 13
RE: Charge and Skirmishers in Detailed Combat - 3/1/2007 7:38:47 PM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Its spelled Geheim Staats Polizei.


Awww. Spelling Bee time. Did I make a tipo. Tsk tisk tsk.

Ich war ein Panzergrenadier, und wir trinken viele zer gut(e) Dankel Bier.

Ich kann nict sprechen die Deutsche Sprachen sehr gut(e), aber I also like very good food.

Sorry for also forgetting the umlauts.

BTW, yes the 47th was part of the 9thID both in WWII and Vietnam. There are a few Regimental and Brigade and a Divisional Association of the 9thID. Lots of 9thID Vets where I live. 32nd Red Arrow 'Les Terribles' fellows also.

Einz, zwei, drei, vier, lift your stein and drink your bier.

Christof139, AAA-0




< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/2/2007 4:13:50 PM >

(in reply to ABridgeTooFar)
Post #: 14
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