Ukraine Puppet State

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Ukraine Puppet State

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided >> The War Room >> Ukraine Puppet State

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Ukraine Puppet State - 3/6/2007 8:39:46 AM

Arthur

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline

Hi Gents,

Was pondering the potential for a factory in the Ukraine to produce infantry for the Axis. You know - the horrible Nazis pretend to befriend the Ukrainians and support them against the oppressive commies. Ukraine produces 3 pp's a turn for every turn the Axis own Kiev and Odessa on the basis that;

1. Should there be a partisan uprising the Puppet State collapses forever (disillisionment?)

2. Should the Russians re-enter the Ukraine the Puppet State collapses forever (leaders are massacred).

Just a little twist, waste of time or interesting?

Arthur

Post #: 1

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/6/2007 2:13:04 PM

a511

Posts: 518
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline

i dont resist this twist so long as it is historically correct. however, to try not to favour the axis too much, i think a production of 1PP per turn but allowing the axis to use the ukraine ppl and produce infantry and militia (only) is more appropriate.

but personally i dont think the nazis' EQ is not that high enough to go for such kind of "foreign relationship campaign" ... can the history experts in this forum give us their historical views?

a511

(in reply to Arthur)

Post #: 2

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/7/2007 5:10:37 AM

Petiloup

Posts: 505
Joined: 6/4/2006
Status: offline

Not being an expert but true enough there was some collaboration against the Communist would it be the Baltic States (afterall they were liberated), Ukraine, the Cosacs,... but all in all the Nazis atrocities created so much partisans activities against them that mostly I would think this offset the gains.

There was also Eastern troops from Russia in Normandy but of very poor value.

Again it would be the same all story, would you replace Hitler and with the right attitude you could have made a lot more Russian nationals work against Stalin but it's difficult "what if" stories.

As seen in Iraq you can come in a country for a good reason and still end up badly because when you occupy someone they always tends to resent you then you begin with the resistance then fighting those with collateral damage then again more resistance and so on. Would it have worked in Ukraine? maybe if you give them total autonomy but as a conqueror how many times does that happens?

I would say like Anthony that favoring the Axis is tricky because then why not give the possibility for France to attack Germany in 1939 while they were busy in Poland? Would they have been smart enough it would have been all over by then as no way Germany was in position to resist the French army while fighting Poland. This is a fact and maybe the biggest gamble won by Hitler.

(in reply to a511)

Post #: 3

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/7/2007 9:11:42 AM

kondor

Posts: 714
Joined: 5/27/2004
From: Croatia
Status: offline

well I don�t see it as a gamble... French (as anybody later and before that time) tought... He wan�t dare to come after us... And we must not provoke him

(in reply to Petiloup)

Post #: 4

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/14/2007 7:36:20 AM

christian brown

Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline

Actually, the concept of adding Ukraine (read: Kiev) as a trade agreement target AFTER occupation, with say a 30% chance of success leading to a reduced pop pool (1) able to produce militia would be great fun.................BUT
1) This is akin to saying that control of Norway, TLC and France by the Axis should give the same benefit (milice, SS volunteers, forced labor building the Atlantic Wall and such.)
2) How would you propose to counter balance this benefit?
3) Would it be worth programming time to accomplish it when there are other interface issues still to improve?

All in all, I love the idea but I think that it is impractical.

PS: Try Advanced Third Reich, you CAN do this and even have Vlasov Army counters on the map on top of that if you wish to explore this possibility in a board game.)

_____________________________

"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
~ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to kondor)

Post #: 5

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/19/2007 8:44:34 AM

Arthur

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline

Options like this should be viewed as enriching the experience by giving people historical choices. I think sometimes it is easy to label things as panzer pushing and discard on that basis.

My suggestion was not a pitch at boosting the germans, rather intriduce an alternative that historically was possible. The game has no mechanism for emulating nazi oppression (by that I mean non-military action) so, in working with the existing game system, you could simply introduce a condition whereby when both Ukraine provinces are captured you get asked a question "Form anti-soviet Ukraine State?" yes/no. No = life as per usual. Yes = some very minor benefit, however should the germans exver attack partisans in the Ukraine provinces, the benefit is gone forever and garrison requirement doubles. Double edged and fun.

I don;t know that the same conditions existed elsewhere, where the Germana were initially greeted as liberators, so don't know if you can carry this over to other countries. The formations of french, dutch, belgian, norwegian etc SS should for part of the existing german personnel pool, there is nothing the germans need to do to make that happen. The ukraine state is more of an option that of course the germans did not explore.

BTW, for the doubters out there, there is reasonable evidence that at the surrender in Stalingrad, there were up to 60,000 russians fighting on ther Germans side. There is a very real historical context here. Some games even try to model this by forcing the russians to garrison there OWN problematic areas with NKVD troops etc.

Anyway just a thought

Arthur

(in reply to christian brown)

Post #: 6

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/19/2007 6:23:31 PM

christian brown

Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arthur
however should the germans ever attack partisans in the Ukraine provinces

OK, what does that mean? Is this to say that there would still be partisans in what would effectively be an Axis minor ally?

quote:

formations of french, dutch, belgian, norwegian etc SS should for(m) part of the existing german personnel pool, there is nothing the germans need to do to make that happen.

Huh? That's not how the game works, no pop is added after the occupation of these countries.....

This is NOT to be argumentative, like I mentioned above, the idea is intriguing, it just seems pretty problematic (and would also require new rules to govern it, since nothing like this happens anywhere else.)

_____________________________

"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
~ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Arthur)

Post #: 7

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/19/2007 7:04:23 PM

WanderingHead

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline

One must think in the context of the existing game and the mechanics that exist therein. Major overhaul of political/national systems in the game is not going to happen at this point for minor (well actually, even for major) changes in game play.

In the context of the existing mechanics, all that can be done is to assign a new nationality to, say, Ukraine. And allow Ukraine to go either way.

A modder could, today, make Ukraine a neutral state leaning Allied. That would pretty much kill Russia, however.

The easiest way to make changes in the game engine that modeled these situations would probably be to include Vichy-like events, where these sub-nations of Russia would become independent neutral nations. It would have to be something like having the Ukrainian territories (perhaps those not yet occupied) turning into a neutral leaning Axis state. Germany would have to leave them alone to get the free resources and supplies (assuming there were any factories there), and hence lose maneuverability.

Frankly, I think it causes too many problems (without being more thoroghly designed, i.e. with the rather simplistic politics that currently exist in the game) and would be too much work to implement to be worthwhile.

(in reply to Arthur)

Post #: 8

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/20/2007 7:57:54 AM

Arthur

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline

Hi Christian,

Re. Ukraine - Sorry, what I meant was that the territories would be still be occupied by the Germans and have the same garrison requirements. However should there be a partisan uprising due to lack of supplies or something else and the German garrison attack the ukraine partisons, the ukraine state collapses and any benefit removed. As a penalty something like double garrison requirement thereafter would be fun. I don't know what the benefit could be, maybe access to the personnel points.

Re. foreign SS - Yeah yeah I know the pp are not added to the pools, I was just commenting that those personnel sources are NOT similar to the proposed ukraine state, as they should be inherent or invisible whereas this option would be that, an option.

Hi Wanderhead, mate you are absolutely right, unless a proposal is easily adoptable into the existing game mechanism it is quite pointless to explore. My clarrification above is with this in mind. I like historical options where they are double edged swords, adds some spice and variation to the game. Like Vichy - the Germans did not have to accept Vichy France. Who knows what would have happened had Hitler sent the german forces into the Levant and FNA to wipe the french out of europe and NA altogether?

The russians fighting the winter war - if you give the game commander the choice he would never do it! Why stir up the finns for the sake of arctic swamp? Give the commander the choice and then add a penalty. No winter war = reduction or suspension in land attack and evasion techs due to loss of experience. Options options options.

Thanks for the constructive comments, love the game!

Arthur

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 9

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/31/2007 3:42:17 AM

BoerWar

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Arlington, VA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arthur

BTW, for the doubters out there, there is reasonable evidence that at the surrender in Stalingrad, there were up to 60,000 russians fighting on ther Germans side. There is a very real historical context here. Some games even try to model this by forcing the russians to garrison there OWN problematic areas with NKVD troops etc.

Just finished reading an excellent book, STALINGRAD by Anthony Beevor. In it he states that as many as 250,000 Ukrainians and Russians served with Axis units during the war. Perhaps if the Ukraine region could trigger to Axis friendly once captured so that it would add population points (but no factory) to the German pool when possesed. Seems like that would be a fairly realistic way to simulate what occurred.

(in reply to Arthur)

Post #: 10

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/31/2007 8:16:13 PM

WanderingHead

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline

As you may know if you are paying attention, I've been making changes for the next patch that allow more modifiability.

I am open to trying to support things like this if there is real support from a broad enough base, if 2by3 continues to provide me the opportunity.

The main modifiability in the next patch is in random political events, and I've found that this can actually provide a lot of leeway to do even some unexpected things.

With the next patch (which should be available soon, as we have been saying for a long time

), it MIGHT be possible to implement something like this as follows:
1) create a new Ukrainian nation, make it part of the Russian player at the start of the game.
2) make a new Political Event which can only trigger if Germany owns the Ukraine. If it fires, then the Ukrainian nation switches sides and joins the Germans. This would allow the Germans to use the population.

There could be other repurcussions to this. Without experimenting I'm not sure what the Ukrainian production would be (would it follow Russia or be independent since it is a different nation .. I think the latter). This wouldn't really be a tradeoff for the Germans, it would be a no brainer (there is no downside).

On the whole, I really don't know if it would work. But it might. If someone has an interest in working on the data files to try it, then I would be happy to help when the time comes by trying to explain how it might be possible to implement.

< Message edited by WanderingHead -- 3/31/2007 8:18:06 PM >

(in reply to BoerWar)

Post #: 11

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/31/2007 8:50:36 PM

BoerWar

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Arlington, VA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

With the next patch (which should be available soon, as we have been saying for a long time), it MIGHT be possible to implement something like this as follows:
1) create a new Ukrainian nation, make it part of the Russian player at the start of the game.
2) make a new Political Event which can only trigger if Germany owns the Ukraine. If it fires, then the Ukrainian nation switches sides and joins the Germans. This would allow the Germans to use the population.

There could be other repurcussions to this. Without experimenting I'm not sure what the Ukrainian production would be (would it follow Russia or be independent since it is a different nation .. I think the latter). This wouldn't really be a tradeoff for the Germans, it would be a no brainer (there is no downside).

I think most of us gamers out here appreciate the support you guys give to your games after release. Especially your interest in seeking and responding to feedback. Sometimes the ideas can be put into code at a reasonable cost and sometimes not.

If you add an event like you describe above you might be able to create some Axis downside by including a moderate to sizable increase in the US entry level if the Germans "create" an independent Ukraine puppet State and accept it into the Axis pact. It could then be quite a dilemna for the German player if the event triggered fairly early. In a 2v2 game it would be interesting to see the willingness of the German player to toss their Japanese ally under the bus for some extra population points.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 12

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/31/2007 10:01:42 PM

WanderingHead

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoerWar
If you add an event like you describe above you might be able to create some Axis downside by including a moderate to sizable increase in the US entry level if the Germans "create" an independent Ukraine puppet State and accept it into the Axis pact.

To be clear, the actual implemention of such a thing will never be in an official release. Joel has been quite clear that he's not going to tweak the released scenarios lightly (i.e. unless something is really really broken). I refer only to supporting the ability of a modder to do it.

If the approach I outlined works (and I really don't know if it would), then it is easy to add an increase in USA WR to the event. I know that this aspect works (it already exists for the Spain coup event). Unfortunately, the WR increase cannot be made to be dependent on the player's decision. The WR increase occurs when the event fires, regardless of any player actions. This is the same as the Spain event.

Unfortunately, it is rather difficult to put off the WR increase to wait for the player decision. That's why it is implemented as it is today.

Too bad, because what you propose is a good idea.

(in reply to BoerWar)

Post #: 13

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 3/31/2007 10:07:30 PM

WanderingHead

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline

I just thought of something.

Another approach which I think is even more likely to work, and be less unbalancing, is that if the German takes all the Ukrainian regions then a one time random event could create militia in Karkhov. The militia would actually be of German nationality, but would represent Ukrainians that joined the German cause.

This would not involve creation of a Ukrainian "nation", and would not impact the ability of the Germans to use Ukrainian factories. Just a one time militia creation.

This would work in the new patch (militia creation in events is already supported in places like Finland, Rumania, Iraq), and I think I may even incorporate it into my GGWAWGG scenario once the patch comes out.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 14

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 4/2/2007 8:12:24 AM

WanderingHead

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline

Still thinking about this.

What a modder _could_ do with the patch is have a random event that creates German militia if Germany controls x,y&z Ukrainian territories but only if x&y territories have no land unit garrison (again, this kind of prereq is already built in to the Iraq event, so the syntax exists in the new moddable events).

Then Germany could conceivably be given the tradeoff of risking partisan uprisings behind the front (by leaving the territories ungarrisoned, kind of like not imposing a harsh regime and allowing some independence) in exchange for some free militia. After the event is fired and the militia were created, Germany could regarrison those territories (even using that same militia) to prevent further damage.

As a specific example, say that Germany must control Kiev, Odessa, Karkov and Sevastopol, and both Kiev and Odessa must be free of German land units (which implies no anti-partisan activity). If the event fires, 4 militia are created in Karkhov (representing 4 pop points, including Rostov for good measure).

Perhaps not perfect, but it is something that should work.

< Message edited by WanderingHead -- 4/2/2007 8:36:43 AM >

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 15

RE: Ukraine Puppet State - 4/4/2007 12:55:00 AM

BoerWar

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Arlington, VA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

Still thinking about this.

What a modder _could_ do with the patch is have a random event that creates German militia if Germany controls x,y&z Ukrainian territories but only if x&y territories have no land unit garrison (again, this kind of prereq is already built in to the Iraq event, so the syntax exists in the new moddable events).

Then Germany could conceivably be given the tradeoff of risking partisan uprisings behind the front (by leaving the territories ungarrisoned, kind of like not imposing a harsh regime and allowing some independence) in exchange for some free militia. After the event is fired and the militia were created, Germany could regarrison those territories (even using that same militia) to prevent further damage.

As a specific example, say that Germany must control Kiev, Odessa, Karkov and Sevastopol, and both Kiev and Odessa must be free of German land units (which implies no anti-partisan activity). If the event fires, 4 militia are created in Karkhov (representing 4 pop points, including Rostov for good measure).

Perhaps not perfect, but it is something that should work.

Seems like a reasonable solution to me. Not quite the same as providing manpower for replacements to depleted units, but if it works with the game mechanics that's great.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 16