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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Fighter sweeps

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Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 8:46:00 AM

Ellsid

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/4/2007
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First of all This game has made my day, week, month and for sure year. I'm a history nut.

I'm very curious about allied army and naval air force use. Now I have read through all the volumes written by Samuel E. Morison (History of U.S. Naval Operations WWII). On many occasions starting in 1943 the U.S. army and navy conduct fighter sweeps on Japanese air bases and would destroy most of the aircraft on the ground during the attack...

..............How can I or can I emulate these tactics in the game?

Post #: 1

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 8:55:50 AM

MineSweeper

Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline

Set your fighter a/c to Airfield attack and set altitude to 100 feet......

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RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 9:03:39 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Set your fighter a/c to Airfield attack and set altitude to 100 feet......

opr naval attack, tortures the hell outtta ur opponent

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RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 9:03:59 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ellsid

First of all This game has made my day, week, month and for sure year. I'm a history nut.

I'm very curious about allied army and naval air force use. Now I have read through all the volumes written by Samuel E. Morison (History of U.S. Naval Operations WWII). On many occasions starting in 1943 the U.S. army and navy conduct fighter sweeps on Japanese air bases and would destroy most of the aircraft on the ground during the attack...

..............How can I or can I emulate these tactics in the game?

can i buy them off u? i only have sum of em lol

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Post #: 4

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 1:06:40 PM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

I believe setting fighters on a sweep mission will shoot down any CAP if encountered. If not CAP is encountered, they will strafe the field. Setting them to airfield attack does guarantee they will attack the airfield.

Bill

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Post #: 5

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 1:41:39 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I believe setting fighters on a sweep mission will shoot down any CAP if encountered. If not CAP is encountered, they will strafe the field. Setting them to airfield attack does guarantee they will attack the airfield.

Bill

There has been recent discussion about whether or not the sweeping fighters will strafe if no CAP is found. Apparently, it USED to be set up that way, but is not currently (although there may be a glitch that allows the fighters to strafe the field on rare occasions.)

i usually play with the most recent patches, and have not had the sweeping fighters strafe the field if they didn't find opposition. i haven't tried a sweep in my most recent 1.804 game, though (as Allies - to early to try this...)

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 6

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 1:45:31 PM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I believe setting fighters on a sweep mission will shoot down any CAP if encountered. If not CAP is encountered, they will strafe the field. Setting them to airfield attack does guarantee they will attack the airfield.

Bill

hmm. thats why they didnt attack, grrr lazy bugggers misreads the orders!

seriously though thankyz, i forgot about that 1

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Post #: 7

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:18:48 PM

ctangus

Posts: 2153
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I believe setting fighters on a sweep mission will shoot down any CAP if encountered. If not CAP is encountered, they will strafe the field. Setting them to airfield attack does guarantee they will attack the airfield.

Bill

There has been recent discussion about whether or not the sweeping fighters will strafe if no CAP is found. Apparently, it USED to be set up that way, but is not currently (although there may be a glitch that allows the fighters to strafe the field on rare occasions.)

i usually play with the most recent patches, and have not had the sweeping fighters strafe the field if they didn't find opposition. i haven't tried a sweep in my most recent 1.804 game, though (as Allies - to early to try this...)

I can confirm that an unopposed sweep will NOT strafe the airfield. I recently sent in unopposed sweeps in two separate games.

Probably the best way to order what the OP wants would be to use multiple units. Set one or more on sweep at high altitude (in case opposition is encountered) and the others on airfield attack, 100 foot altitude. Maybe a sweep mission at 100' altitude would work also, but it would likely get chewed up if it ran into CAP.

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 8

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:26:20 PM

marky

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Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

i usually just send an alpha strike

every available plane inmcluding bombers and such strike at once

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Post #: 9

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:29:39 PM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

Probably the best way to order what the OP wants would be to use multiple units. Set one or more on sweep at high altitude (in case opposition is encountered) and the others on airfield attack, 100 foot altitude. Maybe a sweep mission at 100' altitude would work also, but it would likely get chewed up if it ran into CAP.

That is what I like to do too; send in some good fighter units on a sweep at fairly high altitude, and a group of bombers at medium altitude to hit the airfield. I also send in some escort fighters with the bombers, I use the lower quality guys here.

I would not recommend doing a sweep at 100', you will be at an altitude disadvantage vs CAP, and you will get chewed up by AAA, all for very little return.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 3/9/2007 2:46:04 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:34:28 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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Going in at treetop level is great for up close and personal damage to an enemy,(especially shipping), but remember not to do it too many days in a row with that squadron or morale will go in the toilet.
IMHO, setting FB's for airfield attack from maybe 6000 feet is better because the attack will actually go in lower, the AA won't be as bad, and the morale won't suffer so badly..
Some of the historical flights you mentioned, were of course carried out by low-flying A 20's and B 25's with para-frag bombs..
These planes with their forward-firing guns will do just as in real life...
I don't believe the game really has a good representation of para-frags, but I'll bet one could figure how to replicate them,(maybe by increasing the damage of smaller HE bombs and labelling them Para-Frag for just certain planes)?

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Post #: 11

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:42:31 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Going in at treetop level is great for up close and personal damage to an enemy,(especially shipping), but remember not to do it too many days in a row with that squadron or morale will go in the toilet.
IMHO, setting FB's for airfield attack from maybe 6000 feet is better because the attack will actually go in lower, the AA won't be as bad, and the morale won't suffer so badly..
Some of the historical flights you mentioned, were of course carried out by low-flying A 20's and B 25's with para-frag bombs..
These planes with their forward-firing guns will do just as in real life...
I don't believe the game really has a good representation of para-frags, but I'll bet one could figure how to replicate them,(maybe by increasing the damage of smaller HE bombs and labelling them Para-Frag for just certain planes)?

Since there are only maybe 2-4 loadouts for aircraft (short range/long range land, short range/long range naval), the problem with putting in a hypereffective weapon is that it will always be used at whatever altitude you attack at.

This is ok if you equip parafrags on someone who WANTS to attack at 100', but if someone wants to preserve their aircraft and attack at 20000 feet, then parafrags will be used from there as well... and since they are hypereffective, then you've just given someone a superweapon...

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 12

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:54:49 PM

Dive Bomber1

Posts: 670
Joined: 10/30/2006
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quote:

Going in at treetop level is great for up close and personal damage to an enemy,(especially shipping), but remember not to do it too many days in a row with that squadron or morale will go in the toilet.

Marky has been doing that against me, day-in, day-out and his planes still fly every time, so morale doesn't seem to be that much of a problem.

The only morale effect that I see is that if my CAP happens to be able to catch one of his air units (which doesn't happen very often for some reason that I haven't figured out), the Allied air unit runs away at the first shot, usually unscathed and ready to fly again.

I suspect, to quote rtrapasso out of context, that Marky has found a "superweapon" within the current game design...

I'll have to remember this trick once Marky has the Allies on the offensive...

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 13

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 2:57:34 PM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

hehehehe, u will TRY

my offfensives are usually devastating

it is clear that the gods are with the alllied forces against the wretced and treacherous imperials!

i also replaced the RAF Commanders, with the best people i could find

and those Swordfish that torpped Hyuga, were carrier pilots off the Hermes

just wait till i have the power i have against Hartwig, lol ull be rippin ur hair out buddy

i cant wait till i have P38s with those cannons

< Message edited by marky -- 3/9/2007 3:16:38 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 8:39:51 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Set your fighter a/c to Airfield attack and set altitude to 100 feet......

In my experience, about the only thing this does is get your fighters shot to heck. It rarely actually damages or destroys enemy planes on the ground (even when you are certain that there are tons of them there). I usually lost 5 to 6 aircraft for every enemy plane I destroyed, so I said to heck with it and haven't strafed since.

(in reply to MineSweeper)

Post #: 15

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 10:19:57 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Set your fighter a/c to Airfield attack and set altitude to 100 feet......

In my experience, about the only thing this does is get your fighters shot to heck. It rarely actually damages or destroys enemy planes on the ground (even when you are certain that there are tons of them there). I usually lost 5 to 6 aircraft for every enemy plane I destroyed, so I said to heck with it and haven't strafed since.

I agree with Icedawg. Early in the game I tried sweeping at 100 ft and got shot to pieces. Recently I tried sweeping at great height (>30,000 ft) and was very successful in chewing up the enemy CAP. I now look at a "sweep" as sweeping CAP, not attacking an airfield. It works well that way.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 16

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/9/2007 10:36:29 PM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus
Probably the best way to order what the OP wants would be to use multiple units. Set one or more on sweep at high altitude (in case opposition is encountered) and the others on airfield attack, 100 foot altitude. Maybe a sweep mission at 100' altitude would work also, but it would likely get chewed up if it ran into CAP.

In fact, IIRC, the AAC would employ this sort of tactic regularly, only they might split a unit. Most of the unit would fly a high altitude sweep over the target drawing off any cap, while a few planes would zoom in at tree top level. By the time the CAP new what was going on they were out of position and climbing toward the fighters. The planes conducting the airfield attack were in and out before the enemy knew what hit them.

I recall reading that P-39s often had success with this. The high level sweep wasnt really there to dogfight, just distract so that would draw off the CAP and then run.

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Post #: 17

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/10/2007 12:36:48 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Going in at treetop level is great for up close and personal damage to an enemy,(especially shipping), but remember not to do it too many days in a row with that squadron or morale will go in the toilet.
IMHO, setting FB's for airfield attack from maybe 6000 feet is better because the attack will actually go in lower, the AA won't be as bad, and the morale won't suffer so badly..
Some of the historical flights you mentioned, were of course carried out by low-flying A 20's and B 25's with para-frag bombs..
These planes with their forward-firing guns will do just as in real life...
I don't believe the game really has a good representation of para-frags, but I'll bet one could figure how to replicate them,(maybe by increasing the damage of smaller HE bombs and labelling them Para-Frag for just certain planes)?

I think the low altitude model it too broken to work effectivley. If you set planes at 100 feet and they have a high experience, they will skip bomb, but suffer a big morale hit and high losses. In real life, skip bombing was developed so inexperienced crews could attack shipping effectively. With all the .50s pointing forward on the B-25s, the Japanese flak gunners were too busy running for cover to shoot back.

I wish Matrix would fix skip bombing so it worked more like the real thing. But then people would be complaining about the hyper effective B-25s.

Bill

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(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 18

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/10/2007 4:38:04 AM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Going in at treetop level is great for up close and personal damage to an enemy,(especially shipping), but remember not to do it too many days in a row with that squadron or morale will go in the toilet.
IMHO, setting FB's for airfield attack from maybe 6000 feet is better because the attack will actually go in lower, the AA won't be as bad, and the morale won't suffer so badly..
Some of the historical flights you mentioned, were of course carried out by low-flying A 20's and B 25's with para-frag bombs..
These planes with their forward-firing guns will do just as in real life...
I don't believe the game really has a good representation of para-frags, but I'll bet one could figure how to replicate them,(maybe by increasing the damage of smaller HE bombs and labelling them Para-Frag for just certain planes)?

Since there are only maybe 2-4 loadouts for aircraft (short range/long range land, short range/long range naval), the problem with putting in a hypereffective weapon is that it will always be used at whatever altitude you attack at.

This is ok if you equip parafrags on someone who WANTS to attack at 100', but if someone wants to preserve their aircraft and attack at 20000 feet, then parafrags will be used from there as well... and since they are hypereffective, then you've just given someone a superweapon...

O.K., yuh know how some defensive AI units have been given shorter range in SPWAW?. Well. suppose only certain squadrons of A 20's and B 25's were created specifically for par-frag mission, and given ceiling altitude of maybe 6000 feet (in the editor)?
It would be along the same lines as how Sid made certain Vickers Vincent carry bombs, and their near twin Vildebeests carry torps..

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Post #: 19

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/10/2007 5:27:05 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Going in at treetop level is great for up close and personal damage to an enemy,(especially shipping), but remember not to do it too many days in a row with that squadron or morale will go in the toilet.
IMHO, setting FB's for airfield attack from maybe 6000 feet is better because the attack will actually go in lower, the AA won't be as bad, and the morale won't suffer so badly..
Some of the historical flights you mentioned, were of course carried out by low-flying A 20's and B 25's with para-frag bombs..
These planes with their forward-firing guns will do just as in real life...
I don't believe the game really has a good representation of para-frags, but I'll bet one could figure how to replicate them,(maybe by increasing the damage of smaller HE bombs and labelling them Para-Frag for just certain planes)?

Since there are only maybe 2-4 loadouts for aircraft (short range/long range land, short range/long range naval), the problem with putting in a hypereffective weapon is that it will always be used at whatever altitude you attack at.

This is ok if you equip parafrags on someone who WANTS to attack at 100', but if someone wants to preserve their aircraft and attack at 20000 feet, then parafrags will be used from there as well... and since they are hypereffective, then you've just given someone a superweapon...

O.K., yuh know how some defensive AI units have been given shorter range in SPWAW?. Well. suppose only certain squadrons of A 20's and B 25's were created specifically for par-frag mission, and given ceiling altitude of maybe 6000 feet (in the editor)?
It would be along the same lines as how Sid made certain Vickers Vincent carry bombs, and their near twin Vildebeests carry torps..

i think they'd have to change the game engine for this...

i thought you were asking for someone to attempt a mod to make this come about...

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 20

RE: Fighter sweeps - 3/10/2007 6:10:59 AM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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No, it could be done within a mod..Just take as many aircraft slots as types of planes you would want to give speacial traits to.
I.E.: If you want a few squadrons of purpose-designed B 25 "Para-frag" bombers, just use one slot for a special B 25, give it a limited ceiling of 1000-2000 feet, arm it with a special type of HE bomb, and you have your para fraggers.
The engine has nothing to do with it. It's just how the plane is armed, and the flying traits given.
Can't use it too often or morale goes to pieces.(They can regain morale by flying ASW missions at that altitude).

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Post #: 21