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LA garrisons - 3/19/2007 2:30:48 PM   
sadja

 

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In Southern Fury there does not appear to be any garrisons in forts or cities in La. I know in real life that the state sent most of thier troops to be in the armies, but Ft.St.Philip and Jackson had very good garrisons. Also NO had a small fleet which most was sent up river to be slaughtered at Memphis and left the city naked for Faragutte.

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/19/2007 3:34:02 PM   
ericbabe


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Oh, I didn't know forts didn't have garrisons.  They should.

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/19/2007 11:28:54 PM   
will b

 

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Eric,

According to list of changes in the other thread that's how it's supposed to be.

• Human players no longer begin the game with garrison units in the following states:
o Connecticut
o Lousiana
o Maine
o Massacheusetts
o Michigan
o Minnesota
o New Hampshire
o Rhode Island
o Vermont
o Wisconsin

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/20/2007 3:02:56 AM   
sadja

 

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My Bad just glanced at the states and saw a bunch of very northern Union states and missed La.

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/20/2007 3:08:07 AM   
christof139


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Yeah, the changes nixed the garrisons in LA. Would be accurate and nice to have 2 garrisons in LA, one in Ft. St. Philip and one in New Orleans.

Also, a small CSA fleet of what was it, 7 to 10 ships would be accurate to have in NO, and historically another fleet in Memphis as many ships from NO were moved up to Memphis and Maemphis had a couple-few. Easy to check with all the Naval info. I have if the Devs. are interested. This can also be easily modded in by modders.

Chris


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That's the CSS North Carolina BB-55
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RE: LA garrisons - 3/20/2007 10:47:39 PM   
ericbabe


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Change was only supposed to remove city garrisons though, not fort garrisons...

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/20/2007 10:50:01 PM   
ericbabe


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We can add a depleted ship-unit to NO and Memphis.  Maybe a NO gunboat unit too?

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/20/2007 11:40:12 PM   
sadja

 

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That would be great on the gunboat and fort garrisons

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/21/2007 8:37:48 AM   
christof139


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quote:

We can add a depleted ship-unit to NO and Memphis. Maybe a NO gunboat unit too?


That would be excellent!!! Both would be Gunboats though, no ships, although come to think of it the fleet unit in NO maybe should be a Ship as the ships in NO were sea-going converts, including the CSS McRae, the captured Mexican rebel privateer captured by the US Navy in 1860 that was the pride of the fleet in NO. Plus there were the ironclads Manassas, Mississippi, and Louisiana, the later two underpowered and used as large floating batteries. All the CSA ships at Memphis were rams and gunboats though as you know.

I'll get the exact numbers if you want, but they are in that one book you have and I both have, Silverstone's book, and many others.

I know you're busy so I'll look at the numbers of CSA ships in both Flotillas now. Hold on.

OK, for the Coming Fury Scenario maybe have 2 CSA Gunboats in the Memphis Flotilla and 3 in the NO Flotilla, and for the Southern Steel Scenario maybe have 3 Gunboats in the Memphis Flotilla and 4 in the NO Flotilla. I guess if these Flotillas are afloat they will repair themselves at a slower rate than if in port, and this repair would represent the CSA building more ships. At Plum Point Bend near Memphis 8 CSA rams attacked the USA ships including some of the Ead's ironclads and defeated them. So, these CSA Flotillas were a force to be reckoned with. Also, in NO, CSA ships had sallied forth and driven off for a brief time the USA blockaders from the Head of Passes earlier in the war before NO fell.

At least with these skeleton fleets in being, the CSA will have a historical naval presence in the game that will save them from spending the precious few starting economic resources it has to build the historical Miss. River flotillas.

The USA could have for starts at Cairo or thereabouts the 3 Timberclads, the USS Tyler, Conestoga and Lexington in one container. As this container repairs and replaces its organic ship units, this increase in ship number could be considered to be the production and commissioning of the Ead's ironclads.

Therefore, both sides would have to husband these intitial flotillas rather than attacking with them, since they would be too weak to attack with at the start until the flotilla containers have more ships added to them by the game engines' replacement and repair mechanism.

To me, this is historic and the way to go to bring the western riverine naval aspect into the game without making both sides make a huge early-on investment of and consequent depletetion of their initial and early resources that are needed to build the economies and land forces that are necessary to make the game work and play and be enjoyable.

Using W. Amos' mod and info., and perusing the files myself, this seems easy albeit somewhat time consuming to do, but it would IMHO make the game more historic, playable, and enjoyable.

Chris








< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/22/2007 5:17:15 AM >


_____________________________

'What is more amazing, is that amongst all those approaching enemies there is not one named Gisgo.' Hannibal Barcid (or Barca) to Gisgo, a Greek staff officer, Cannae.
That's the CSS North Carolina BB-55
Boris Badanov, looking for Natasha Goodenov

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/21/2007 3:35:14 PM   
ericbabe


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Thanks for the info.  Silverstone is excellent.  (MrZ has all our CivWar-related OOB books right now, so I can't look up anything even if I wanted to.)

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/21/2007 9:38:20 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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When you say "three gunboats" or "four gunboats", I assume you mean one gunboat unit with a strength of three or four, right?

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/22/2007 5:15:42 AM   
christof139


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quote:

When you say "three gunboats" or "four gunboats", I assume you mean one gunboat unit with a strength of three or four, right?


Yes, you have interpreted me correctly. You are also promoted too, but to Secretary of War, therefore you can be in the hotseat and take any blame for anything and everything. I've been reading of some more of the politics withing the CSA command system, and am learning quite well I think.

I figure that by July, 1861 and from perusing historical sources, that the CSA did have a few gunboats completed or patially completed and floating about, but it would be too much trouble to dig through a bunch of records to get a near precise number, so I just roughly guesstimated and looked at the number of turns until Dec, 1861 when there were definitely a good nummber of CSA gunboats floating about the Miss. River at NO and Memphis.

Just think if the CSA had completed the CSS Eastport ironclad at Eastport, TN before the USA captured and then completed it. Same for the CSA Mississippi in NO and if the CSS Louisiana which was completed and used as a VERY LARGE and heavily armed floating battery had better engines!!! We would now have a lot more to read and talk about that is for sure!!!

Chris








_____________________________

'What is more amazing, is that amongst all those approaching enemies there is not one named Gisgo.' Hannibal Barcid (or Barca) to Gisgo, a Greek staff officer, Cannae.
That's the CSS North Carolina BB-55
Boris Badanov, looking for Natasha Goodenov

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 12
RE: LA garrisons - 3/22/2007 8:42:34 AM   
sadja

 

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Louisiana leaked like a sieve because they used green wood and didn't let the hull soak. She had 2 propusion systems paddle wheels and propeller. The engins didn't work or were not all hooked up. The paddle wheels couldn't hold her in the river. The Mississippi River was in high flood stage when the Union attacked and was very swift. When the forts fell they blew her up. The Mississippi IC was made like you would build a house. They used normal carpenters and just made 45 degree angles instead of rounding her frame. Her engins were not complete ( delay from the Richmond foundry on her prop shafts. She was also burnt when NO fell.If both of those IC's were ready before the attack I don't think the Union takes NO untill at least 63 when they are able to bring in there own IC Those IC were very formadible for the time. Eastport was sunk when Ft. Henry was taken by cutting her suction pipes. The Union refloated her and used her later in the war.

The Confederates were always just a little behind in the curve when building the IC's They didn't have a proper naval department untill later. If they had been a little more agressive in those parts The Mississippi would have been harder to take. If the Union doesn't have gunboats at Columbus/Belmont, Ft.Henry and Shilo Grant may have been beaten before he gets started.

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Your never Lost if you don't care where you are.

Tom Massie GPAA

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/23/2007 8:43:51 AM   
christof139


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quote:

Just think if the CSA had completed the CSS Eastport ironclad at Eastport, TN before the USA captured and then completed it. Same for the CSA Mississippi in NO and if the CSS Louisiana which was completed and used as a VERY LARGE and heavily armed floating battery had better engines!!! We would now have a lot more to read and talk about that is for sure!!! Chris


Yup, that's why I said what I said in the quote of me saying that above.

The Louisiana was used as a floating battery at new orleans, and she was tied to the bank of the river. The Mississippi was not yet fully prepared for use even as a stationary floating battery.

I have quite a few books on the naval aspects of the ACW. For a GAME like FoF to be enjoyable, it is OK to have a FEW WHAT IFS.

My point was that the CSA did put up a fight with what it had, and at the naval battle of Plu, point bend above memphis, 8 CSA river defense gunboat-rams defeated about 7-USA vessels, including some of the Ead's ironclads.

One of my favorite 'What if's' is the leaky and underpowered CSS Missouri that was built and completed at Shreveport, LA but it never saw combat and would never have made it past the rapids and falls downstream at Alexandria.

Chris




_____________________________

'What is more amazing, is that amongst all those approaching enemies there is not one named Gisgo.' Hannibal Barcid (or Barca) to Gisgo, a Greek staff officer, Cannae.
That's the CSS North Carolina BB-55
Boris Badanov, looking for Natasha Goodenov

(in reply to sadja)
Post #: 14
RE: LA garrisons - 3/23/2007 5:28:31 PM   
Bombsight


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Christof,
The CSA garrisons of these forts was nominal. According to the book entitled "The Day the South Lost the War" (can't remember author), the total manpower for the two forts was about 500 men! After the Union fleet bypassed the forts and ascended the Mississippi to N'Alens, the troops abandoned the forts and fled west to Vermillionville because they were too weak to defend against a land attack.

< Message edited by Whit -- 3/23/2007 5:29:56 PM >


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RE: LA garrisons - 3/23/2007 6:38:16 PM   
pzpat

 

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Knowing that the AI will attack LA in the near future I conscripted a couple of brigades to man the forts near NO, but haven't found out how to order a brigade into a fort.  How do I do it?

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/23/2007 6:39:27 PM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzpat

Knowing that the AI will attack LA in the near future I conscripted a couple of brigades to man the forts near NO, but haven't found out how to order a brigade into a fort. How do I do it?


Click on the brigade and mouse over the fort. You should get the same "down" arrow used for putting units into divisions/etc.

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/24/2007 12:23:04 AM   
sadja

 

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Loved that book. I always was facinated with the southern Navy. I was amazing that the south lost 2 of it's largest industrial centers by summer of 62 (NO and Nashville) I thought the garrisons were a little bigger. I know they didn't have enough to fight all the guns at either fort. Most of the garrison was from the North and stayed on as not to be jailed or under suspision for being from the north. (Just looked in my Battles and leaders volumes and stated that the garrisons of both forts combined 1100 men. I love those books. I always like 1st person accounts. They might not always be free from an agenda or bias but give you more of a feel for the time. As you stated most of the garrison left after the passing of the forts and only 212 officers and men surrenderd.

Sorry for my spelling, does the forum have a spell check?

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Your never Lost if you don't care where you are.

Tom Massie GPAA

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RE: LA garrisons - 3/24/2007 5:35:44 AM   
christof139


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quote:

Christof, The CSA garrisons of these forts was nominal. According to the book entitled "The Day the South Lost the War" (can't remember author), the total manpower for the two forts was about 500 men! After the Union fleet bypassed the forts and ascended the Mississippi to N'Alens, the troops abandoned the forts and fled west to Vermillionville because they were too weak to defend against a land attack.

< Message edited by Whit -- 3/23/2007 10:29:56 AM >

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There is another book entitled 'The Night the War was Lost' by Charles L. Dufor, and I have that and many others. A real good one is 'A River Unvexed, a History and Tour Guide of the Campaign for the Mississippi River', by Jim Miles and part of the Civil War campaign Series published by Rutlege Hill Press, Nashville, TN. There are 5 books in this series and 'A River Unvexed' is 596 pages long, a great and detailed book.

Another good book is 'The Civil War in Louisiana' by John D. Winters, not to be confused with 'Louisiana in the Civil War' by another author, which latter is also a good book.

The main parts of the garrisons around the 2 forts below New Orleans were withdrawn prior to the battle so they wouldn't be cut-off if the USA fleet managed to pass the forts, and also since the 2-forts did not need a huge number of troops to man them and an over abundance of troops in the garrisons would more quickly deplete available food supplies.

Fort Jackson had a garrison of over 300 troops and about 95 guns, while Fort St. Phillip was smaller and mounted about 52 guns and had a slightly smaller garrison. Not all of the guns in any of the forts guarding the American coastline were ever provided with a crew for each gun in them, as that is unnecessary as the gun crews would move within the fort to whatever direction the main assault was coming from, and that was SOP, leaving a small number of guards to watch the walls of the fort that weren't being attacked, using economy of force in other words. Additionally, between 250 to 300 of Fort Jackson's garrison mutinied after the USA fleet passed the 2-forts and the mutiny succeeded, thus leaving only the St. Mary's Cannoneers, a Louisiana Arty. Battery to man the fort's guns.

The USA built Fort Jackson was designed for a garrison of about 300-troops, while the older, smaller and paralellogram shaped Spanish or French built Fort St. Philip was designed to hold about 200-troops as a garrison. The additional guns at these 2-forts were mounted in earthworks and water batteries outside the original fort structures.

***In other words, both Forts Jackson and St. Philip and their additional earthworks and water batteries were sufficiently manned by CSA forces and did not possess inadequate numbers of garrison troops and guns.***

Above Forts Jackson and St. Philip there was the CSA Battery at Chalmette on the east bank of the Miss. River mounting about 10-32-pdrs, and Battery or Camp McGhee opposite Chalmette on the west bank of the Miss. River and also mounting about 10-32-pdrs. Both of these batteries also fought. At the village and CSA Camp of Quarantine just north of Fort St. Philip, CSA Col. I. Szymanski surrendered his regiment of over 300-troops to the commander of the USS Cayuga without resistance or attempting to escape.

There were also 4-CSA Navy and 2-State of Louisiana warships mounting about 30-guns, along with the CSA Army's 6-gunboat-rams of the River Defense Force mounting about 12-guns. The 6-CSA Navy and State warships fought, while the 6-CSA Army rams refused to operate under Navy command and were nearly all destroyed while still at anchor. The unfinished ironclad CSS Louisiana was used as a powerful floating battery and did good service in that role, not being surrendered but being cast adrift and set on flame after the USA fleet passed upstream of the forts and the CSS Louisiana's position.

Altogether the CSA had about 189-guns and sufficient gun crews at Forts Jackson and St. Philip and on the 12-naval vessels, and counting the approximate 20-32-pdrs. at Batteries Chalmette and McGhee, this is a total of aprroximately 209-guns to face the 46-ships mounting approximately 348-guns and 21-mortars of the USA fleet under Farragut.

So, the CSA had a good amount of strength, both in batteries and number of troops and guns, as well as a respectable naval force that could have done more damage if used in concert.

More good books are: 1) Ships Versus Shore, Civil War Engagements Along Southern Shores and Rivers, by Dave Page; 2) Combined Operations in the Civil War, by Rowena Reed; 3) Thunder Along the Mississippi, the River Battles That Split the Confederacy, by Jack D. Coombe; 4) Guns on the Western Waters, the Story of River Gunboats in the Civil War, by H.A. Gosnell; 5) Ellet's Brigade, the Strangest Outfit of All, by C.G. Hearn; 6) and many others.

Chris

PS: All CSA and State forces and arms and stores that could be evacuated were ordered to Camp Moore, about 30-miles north of NO, but not all the troops including militia got there, as many deserted and a few were on the west side of the river and couldn't or just didn't cross back over to the east side. Even the powder mill machinery was evacuated to Vicksburg. There were several thousand CSA and State troops in the NO area, thousands all told, as they were also garrisoning Forts Pike and Macomb to the northeast at Lake Pontchartrain, Fort Livingston I believe at Barataria Bay, and a few other post war of 1812 USA built forts and other CSA built posts. Gen. Lovell was the overall CSA commander, and the must have been nigh on 10,000 and more CSA and State troops in the NO area. the NO 'European Brigade' was a LA State Militia unit that kept order in NO after the CSA and other State forces evacuated, and I believe it remained in the City of NO after the USA occupation, although no doubt many of its members served in the CSA forces at a later date.






< Message edited by christof139 -- 3/24/2007 12:29:16 PM >


_____________________________

'What is more amazing, is that amongst all those approaching enemies there is not one named Gisgo.' Hannibal Barcid (or Barca) to Gisgo, a Greek staff officer, Cannae.
That's the CSS North Carolina BB-55
Boris Badanov, looking for Natasha Goodenov

(in reply to Bombsight)
Post #: 19
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