Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

BB South Dakota Damage

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> BB South Dakota Damage Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 6:31:55 AM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Here is a damage report for the USS South Dakota after the 2nd night action at Guadalcanal.....Intresting that she was only hit by 1 - 14" shell, all the others were of a smaller caliber......

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2892/bb57southdakotaqa8.jpg


< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/27/2007 6:38:40 AM >

_____________________________
Post #: 1
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 6:46:25 AM   
JJB647


Posts: 62
Joined: 12/6/2001
From: Illinois
Status: offline 		Nice shot with the one 14" shell. Seems odd that only one of the 14" shells hit. Wonder how close the rest in the salvo came.
Cool graphic. Thanks.

(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 2
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 6:52:18 AM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Seems like the coning tower took most of the hits.....

_____________________________





(in reply to JJB647)
Post #: 3
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 4:32:01 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Here is a damage report for the USS South Dakota after the 2nd night action at Guadalcanal.....Intresting that she was only hit by 1 - 14" shell, all the others were of a smaller caliber......

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2892/bb57southdakotaqa8.jpg



Did that Japanese 14" hit (that detonated on barbette) disabled #3 Turret on SoDak?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 4
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 4:39:09 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		The turret wasn't disabled. There's some dispute over the type of shell that struck it. I've also read that it was a glancing blow.

_____________________________


(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 5
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 4:39:34 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		If my rapidly becoming overloaded memory is correct, that hit did jam the #3 turret in train.

_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 6
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 4:39:41 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Here is a damage report for the USS South Dakota after the 2nd night action at Guadalcanal.....Intresting that she was only hit by 1 - 14" shell, all the others were of a smaller caliber......

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2892/bb57southdakotaqa8.jpg



Did that Japanese 14" hit (that detonated on barbette) disabled #3 Turret on SoDak?


Leo "Apollo11"


At some point, the circuit breakers all went out (rumor was that they had been wired down) so EVERYTHING was disabled... but once she got out of combat, i think the damage was deemed relatively superficial which would imply (the turret) wasn't knocked out permanently.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 4:52:45 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Far more germaine to the outcome of the fight was what the Washington did to Kirishima with 9 x 16"

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 8
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 5:10:35 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Far more germaine to the outcome of the fight was what the Washington did to Kirishima with 9 x 16"


But let us not forget that Kirishima was vintage WWI design...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 9
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 5:35:29 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		the prime factor was that Kirishima never saw it coming.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 10
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 6:36:50 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		I also thought that the Kirshima was only armed with 14 inch HE rounds....

_____________________________





(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 11
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 6:44:45 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Some sources cite that she had special/HE ammo loaded in the turrets initially as the mission was to bombard Henderson. However there's dispute over whether or not she was actually firing AP by the time of the SoDak hit. Cambell's says it was HE. Author Richard Worth (also known as "Tiornu") thinks it was AP based on the time index. Others think the damage supports an HE shell. One source i have describes the hit as glancing due to the curvature of the barbette so ultimately we'll probably never know for sure.

_____________________________


(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 12
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 9:46:27 PM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		The barbette hit was certainly not a glancing hit. You may be able to tell from the diagram--the shell went through the hatch coaming and then hit the barbette at its midpoint. This indicates a hit about as nearly dead-center as possible.
Kirishima was carrying three types of ammo. This hit was definitley not a Type 3 shell, which carried only a small black-powder canister of explosive to disperse the incendiary capsules. There is an argument for a Type 0 HE shell, but I believe the most probable is the Type 91/1 AP shell. As Nik mentioned, this fits best with the timeline. Deformation of SoDak's weather deck is extensive, but I believe this resulted not from a large HE filler but from the "fact" that the Type 91 shell wedged into the joint between the barbette and deck and forced the deck down. If you look at photos of SoDak, you will see that the deck around the barbette is almost totally free of splinter damage, which would be improbable in the case of an HE hit. But if an AP shell deflected downward into the joint, the spray of lateral splinters would run roughly parallel with the deck, leaving the planks unruffled but gouging the gas seal and barrels; and that is exactly what happened.
The SoDak DR is kind of bizarre, being written up some years after the battle--1948-ish? It strikes me as the least valuable/reliable of the reports I've looked at.
In my view, the traditional figure of nine 16in hits against Kirishima is rubbish. It comes from the recollections of one Kirishima officer (a gunnery officer?) who also mentioned 40-50 5in hits. This would require the secondary battery to achieve a hit rate twice as high as the main battery's. It's ridiculous, especially considering that the 5in descent angle at the battle range would be 2-3 times as steep. A Kirishima damage-control officer drew up a diagram that hints at as many as 20 16in hits, and this fits with the probabilities much more readily.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 13
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 10:06:03 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Thats interesting. Where did you come across the diagram for Kirishima?



_____________________________


(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 14
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 10:07:26 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Actually the SD battle damage report is the most reliable one that can be had IMO.
The references to the damage reports are highly regarded....

C.O. - South Dakota Action Report 12/19/1942
C.O. - South Dakota ltr. 12/08/1942
C.O. - South Dakota ltr. 2/28/1943
Commadant - New York Naval Yard 4/19/1943 (where most of the damage was repaired)
U.S. Naval Proving Ground - Dahlgren VA report on Japanese 8" projectiles
Photos of the damage

Here is a picture of the 14" hit on the SD......





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/27/2007 11:53:06 PM >

_____________________________





(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 15
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 10:22:38 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		what was the exact path of the shell and AoI again?

_____________________________


(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 16
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 10:40:48 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Here is the actual cover of the damage report.....Bureau of Ships/Navy Dept.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________





(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 17
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 10:44:30 PM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Actually the SD battle damage report is the most reliable one that can be had IMO.
Why do you feel that way? All that damage, and the authors reviewed only one splinter. Though referencing the NTM report on shells, they also cite shell types that never existed.

quote:

Where did you come across the diagram for Kirishima?
In a Japanese-language published source.

quote:

what was the exact path of the shell and AoI again?
If you look at the diagram, you can see the impact point on the barbette. The hatch coaming as abreast that point. The picture that Minesweeper posted shows the radiating cracks from the impact point. Unfortunately the photos you find in damage reports will never be great quality. There's another picture of the barbette that shows two points of damage in the armor, one above the deck level and one directly beneath it below the deck level. I believe this reflects the damage of the original impact plus damage caused by the shell nose after it tipped downward and was thrown into the barbette by the shell detonation. A glancing hit would not have created this sort of symmetry.
From memory, the impact distorted the bearing race and forced some plating into it. Eventually the plating got so mashed up in there that the turret was declared out of action. However, this wasn't until well after the fight and, I think, reflects the desire to prevent further mashing rather than actual jamming.

(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 18
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 10:53:07 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu


The SoDak DR is kind of bizarre, being written up some years after the battle--1948-ish? It strikes me as the least valuable/reliable of the reports I've looked at.



And actually there are photos of the damage that makes this report conclusive....
Hits 13, 14,and 15
There are 12 more photos of the other shell hits.
one more pic...

These three holes were caused by 8" shells that hit the superstructure without detonating....






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/27/2007 11:07:09 PM >

_____________________________





(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 19
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 11:08:02 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Any theories as to why the shell didn't preform better given the range?

_____________________________


(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 20
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 11:24:05 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Nik, the damage report states the following-
"From reference (f), however, it appears that the majority of the hits were from AP projectiles. Reference (f) reported that the Japanese used a fuze with a time delay of 0.4 seconds. In the 8 inch and larger projectiles a time delay of 0.08 seconds.....Because of this long time delay, most projectiles passed through the superstructure without detonating"

It also states that in comparison - the US fuzed their AP 8" and above shells to 0.035 seconds.

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/27/2007 11:27:52 PM >

_____________________________





(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 21
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 11:28:58 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Thx MS.....unfortunately that doesn't help in regards to the 14inch shell, if it was an AP.

_____________________________


(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 22
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/27/2007 11:48:15 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		The reports states the following regarding Hit 26

"An estimated 14-inch projectile passed through both sides of the coaming of hatch 1-128 and detonated upon hitting the barbette of turret III at frame 123.5 about 17 inches from the top. the 17.5 inch armor was gouged to a depth of abot 1.5 inches over an area of 15 inches"......"Some difficulty was experinced in training the turret after the hit but it was believed that the turret was still able to fire"

There is no mention in the report of what type of 14 inch shell it was....but IMO I think it was an HE shell.....

_____________________________





(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 23
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 12:02:51 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Yes, hence my question to Herr Tiornu and my interest in the AoI + any other details. Gazarke also contains a decent detailed description of each hit on SoDak on a hit per hit basis.

_____________________________


(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 24
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 12:32:54 AM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Found another picture of the infamous 14" shell hit (hit #26)....






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/28/2007 12:34:15 AM >

_____________________________





(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 25
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 1:46:26 AM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Nik, some more info.....looking at the CA San francisco's damage report from the previous night.....she was hit by 14" shells from one of the Jap BBs....quote from the report -
"The nature of the 14" projectiles which struck the San Francisco is of intrest in connection with the fires. Reference (c) reports that the fragments recovered from the 14 inchers. They were of incendiary type with a heavy base and 3/8" walls. the cavity was apparntly filled with an explosive charge and a large number of small(3" x 1") saftey fused incendiary cylinders filled with powdered aluminum and magnesium. Apparently the explosive charge detonates sets safety fuses afire, and scatters incendiary cylinders over a wide area. This started fires in many inaccessable places. There was no evidence of a base plug, and it is probable that the projectile had a nose fuse with a fuse adapter for nose loading. The 5" S.T.S. barbette armor defeated them easily. It was fortunate for the San Francisco that neither of these shells was armor piercing"

FYI

Looking at the last picture of the 14" hit on the SD...it seems to me that there was alot of heat on the 2nd deck....caused by an incendiary shell?.....who knows, I am still sticking with my opinion that she was struck by a HE shell....did the Kirshima have time to reload 14" AP shells into her magazines in that short of time period between battles or were the HE shells the right weapon to use against CAs, CLs and destroyers if they were present during the airfield bombardment mission and not expecting to meet 2 American BBs......

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/28/2007 2:11:19 AM >

_____________________________





(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 26
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 2:11:38 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		The G&D drawing and survey is basically a copy of the one Minesweeper posted above.
The hits on San Fran don't have much to say about SoDak's experience since probably all of San Fran's hits were Type 3's.
The armor which Kirishima's shell hit is considerably greater than caliber-thick for a 14in shell. Penetration of face-hardened armor was not a forte of the Type 91. In other instances, Japanese shells exploded prematurely due to their sensitive burster. I don't think that's the case here, but it could be.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 27
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 3:05:23 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		I remembered one other possible factor in the failure to penetrate the barbette. The Japanese had three propellant ratings. Gunnery training and bombardment duties might involve weaker charges meant to prolong barrel life. That does not appear to apply here, however--the fact that the shell could penetrate the hatch coaming and still hit the barbette a foot and a half above the deck indicates a very shallow descent angle.
Kirishima had time to fire all three types if shells against SoDak. The barbette came at the very end of the engagement, after Kiri had switch totally over to AP.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 28
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 3:14:04 AM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu


Kirishima had time to fire all three types if shells against SoDak.

What I mean't was, did she have time at base (Rabaul) in between the battles to reload AP shells....or if that was not on agenda - just use what was stocked in her (HE Shells)

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 3/28/2007 3:18:01 AM >

_____________________________





(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 29
RE: BB South Dakota Damage - 3/28/2007 3:15:11 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		Hi Nik,

Here's the official US Navy report compiled after the war:

BB57 Battle Damage

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> BB South Dakota Damage Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.000