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Sonias really that useless?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Sonias really that useless? Page: [1]
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Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 12:22:03 AM   
Dive Bomber1

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		When the Japanese player has PDU "off" he is stuck with lots of Japanese Army air groups that upgrade to Sonias. But Sonias don't seem to be very useful. They have a fairly short range and as land-based divebombers they attack at low altitude and are constantly mauled by flak. The very short range even makes them fairly useless as ASW aircraft.

Were real Sonias this useless, and did the Japanese Army really build up air units with them in the numbers that the non-PDU game gives the Japanese player?

Also, has anyone figured out a good use for Sonias in the Game?

Thanks -
Post #: 1
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 1:04:44 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well with high exp they are good as port defense ASW planes ... their short legs are their main detriment to other missions ... but train em up to 80 on ground support in China .. then place them on Naval Search at your important ports and if a sub shows up switch them to ASW and you'll get some hits!

IRL they were useful mostly for reasons that aren't represented in the game.

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RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 1:05:43 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The Sonia is sort an in-between aircraft. It's not really a dive-bomber, but what's called an "Army Co-operation Aircraft". Its main faults are a small bomb-load, and (shared with all other Jap aircraft) low Durability. Use it for its intended purpose: attacks on Allied land units.

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RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 1:28:29 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		Aside from that the Sonia is what the Japanese had to work with.

Welcome to the club.

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Post #: 4
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 1:32:10 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dive Bomber1

Also, has anyone figured out a good use for Sonias in the Game?

Thanks -


I put them on Airfield and/or Ground Attack in China - As few as 9 seem to get me at least a runway hit - which should slow down fort building...


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RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 1:53:06 AM   
Dive Bomber1

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks to all of you guys for your suggestions - I'll give them a try.

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Post #: 6
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 3:13:17 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		The mechanics of the game make ground attack aircraft of much more limited usefulness than in the real world. The Hurricane Mk IId, IV, and the Sturmovik were excellent anti tank planes and good general ground attack platforms, but they don't work that way in the game. Army cooperation planes were usually based on improvised airfields just behind the front lines where their short range was not a detriment. In the game, the mechanics of bases doesn't make that possible.

Attacks on troops don't have the effects they did in the real world either. By 1944, the Allies were using fighter bombers and even planes like B-25s and A-20s coordinated with ground troops to eliminate fortifications and artillery. When napalm came into use, it was extremely effective against tunnels and bunkers. Fire is the most effective way of taking out those types of fortifications.

Early in the war, small attack planes like the Sonia had a major demoralizing effect on troops. Especially in China. By mid-war the demoralizing effects of these aircraft diminished quite a bit.

Bill

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RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 5:34:48 AM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well with high exp they are good as port defense ASW planes ... their short legs are their main detriment to other missions ... but train em up to 80 on ground support in China .. then place them on Naval Search at your important ports and if a sub shows up switch them to ASW and you'll get some hits!

IRL they were useful mostly for reasons that aren't represented in the game.


I leave them on naval search for the longer range. Naval search seems to do a fine job of hitting subs.

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Post #: 8
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 7:23:57 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The mechanics of the game make ground attack aircraft of much more limited usefulness than in the real world. The Hurricane Mk IId, IV, and the Sturmovik were excellent anti tank planes and good general ground attack platforms, but they don't work that way in the game. Army cooperation planes were usually based on improvised airfields just behind the front lines where their short range was not a detriment. In the game, the mechanics of bases doesn't make that possible.

Attacks on troops don't have the effects they did in the real world either. By 1944, the Allies were using fighter bombers and even planes like B-25s and A-20s coordinated with ground troops to eliminate fortifications and artillery. When napalm came into use, it was extremely effective against tunnels and bunkers. Fire is the most effective way of taking out those types of fortifications.

Early in the war, small attack planes like the Sonia had a major demoralizing effect on troops. Especially in China. By mid-war the demoralizing effects of these aircraft diminished quite a bit.

Bill


A major demoralizing effect on who ?

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Post #: 9
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 10:48:45 AM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Well, unlike the Maries and Anns they are armored, so i guess that has to mean something.

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Post #: 10
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 11:55:53 AM   
Vetamur

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		Most of the IJAs aircraft are 2E, so the Sonia are good at putting at the small airfields...the closest the game gets to approximating how they were really used. Early in my first ever campaign game I turned production of them off and was planning to phase them out.. but as time went by I found them quite useful, especially in Burma and China with lots of small airfields nearby.  An added bonus was that since I use them constantly they typically have an 80 or 83 experience rating, making them even more useful.

But yeah..the range thing sucks as far as the mechanics of WITP go.

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Post #: 11
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 3:28:45 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		They make a yummy dinner for the local Tiger population...



-F-

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Post #: 12
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 9:42:57 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The mechanics of the game make ground attack aircraft of much more limited usefulness than in the real world. The Hurricane Mk IId, IV, and the Sturmovik were excellent anti tank planes and good general ground attack platforms, but they don't work that way in the game.


Amen to that!

I've gotten the impression that the ground attack mission is basically useless. Furthermore, it appears as though the size of the attacking formation has little effect on the amount of damage done. For example, I like using Sally's and Lily's to soften up Alor Star and Khota Bharu a little bit early in the game. What I've noticed is that 100 or so Sally's do basically the same amount of damage as about 20 (both strike sizes typically return results of 40-60 reported casualties each mission). So, I usually only use one or two units each turn targeting each of these bases. This keeps fatigue and OPs losses low while doing the same amount of damage to enemy ground troops.

Has anyone else noticed this? I understand that something of a law of diminishing returns probably applies here, but shouldn't 100 planes cause considerably more damage than 20? Why chew up the extreme amounts of supplies required by LB's when increased numbers of them don't yield any returns?

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Post #: 13
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 9:49:42 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I notice a marked difference when a unit is bombed in the countryside as opposed to in a base.  Last turn in a PBEM I bombed the 14th Chindit Bde in a jungle hex with 37 Sallys and 67 Helens at 6k feet and caused 331 casualties.  It definitely made a serious dent in the unit's AV, at least temporarily.

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Post #: 14
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 10:09:38 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Ground attack can be extremely effective, particularily if the unit attacked is alone. In addition to casualties, and more important in the immediate run, is the disruption it causes. It can mean the difference between a successful attack and a failed attack. However once you get multiple LCU's and/or very large LCU's, paitence becomes a pre-req as ground attack is not going to provide an instant solution. It becomes a grinding war of attrition.



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RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 10:10:32 PM   
Rafael Warsaw


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline 		IL 2 flying tank? Its a myth - trust me.
It was a @#$%@# piece of junk so even soviets were embarassed, Came into play only after they designed mini anti tank boms (1,2 kg?) in late 44. Then they started to act as low flying level bombers but covering quite a corridor due to large amount of these mini bombs, so when they were lucky enough to find a german collumn they scored. Nothing more than that. Do not believe in myths. Esspecially WW2 soviets and modern USArmy.



Sonias - I do upgrade all of them so my mechanics can start to scrap engines.


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Post #: 16
RE: Sonias really that useless? - 4/2/2007 10:37:14 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I don't like IJAAF DBs either, but I don't scrap them.  I upgrade most of them but leave one of each (Sonia, Ann and Mary) in Kwantung and usually 4-6 sentai from the Southern Area Army for ASW purposes.  Early in the war I set them to naval attack, when the Allies are fleeing the SRA.  Their 100kg bombs can sink merchant shipping.  After the Allied shipping is either gone or sunk, I start to convert all but the 4-6 above to Lilys.  The remaining DBs will harass (and hopefully hit) the occasional Allied sub.  I put them in choke points where I know the Allied subs will congregate. 

I don't like to scrap any planes because 1 resource point for an engine is not worth it.  There are a lot of DBs in the pool.  If used the way I describe above, you'll probably have enough to last the entire war. 

I never use them against ground forces in bases and where I know there are AA guns because they get butchered that way.

Edit: Oh yeah, I don't build any either....

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 4/2/2007 10:44:24 PM >

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Post #: 17
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