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OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 11:42:45 AM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

I am curious as to whether some of the missions currently undertaken by helicopters could not be more efficiently undertaken by a modern Catalina or Sunderland design. Helicopters consume large quantities of fuel, have limited range and are slow. Is there no advantage nowadays to being able to land on water with a better endurance and greater cargo/bomb carry capacity plus lower operating costs than current helicopters?

Alfred
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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 11:51:24 AM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Gentlemen,

I am curious as to whether some of the missions currently undertaken by helicopters could not be more efficiently undertaken by a modern Catalina or Sunderland design. Helicopters consume large quantities of fuel, have limited range and are slow. Is there no advantage nowadays to being able to land on water with a better endurance and greater cargo/bomb carry capacity plus lower operating costs than current helicopters?

Alfred


There were a few reasons why flying boats disappeared from service. The ability to land on water was less important post war after widespread construction of concrete runways during the war. Jet engines aren't really suited to operating from water as they would be likely to suck up water through the intakes.
Helicopters also have the major advntage of VTOL

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 11:57:03 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Plus flying boats are very expensive. Even the Japanese have scrapped their Shin Meiwas:






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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 12:07:04 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Regarding float planes, consider that helicopters can be based on much smaller ships than float planes could. Much more tactically useful...

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 1:03:50 PM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		There were some jet flying boat designs after the war. They had the engines on top of the wings.

Before helicopters came in, the flying boat was already on the way out. In the late 30s, nobody anticipated how fast airfields could be built by CBs and other similar units. It was thought that float planes were the only way to have any air assets on a small base. The Navy soon learned that fields capable of operating PVs, PBJs, and PB4Ys were easy to build. The patrol job, which had belonged mostly to PBYs before the war became the job of the land based patrol squadrons.

For operating around ships, the helicopter soon earned its place because it was so much easier to operate than a float plane and had more flexibility. Electronics have also made detection around a task force easier, so there is less need for scouting aircraft.

Bill

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 2:32:34 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Status: offline 		And some helicopters also can land on water - for example Mi-14...

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 2:38:33 PM   
Terminus


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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 8:29:57 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline 		Besides, in a modern guided missile environment, a flying boat is just a big, slow target, whereas a helicopter at least is only a small, slow target AND vastly more maneuverable.

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 9:17:45 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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Status: offline 		Two words to add:

"Dipping Sonar"

and, added as an edit, try googling "air droppable sonar buoy" to get a unit price, noting that the S70 LAMPS III carries 125 buoys in its launch tubes....

< Message edited by Ian R -- 4/1/2007 9:41:17 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 9:32:03 PM   
qgaliana

 

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Status: offline 		On the other hand, civilian float planes still seem to be in reasonable use.

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 9:34:49 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Flying boats and seaplanes are very expensive to operate. They require tremendous amounts of corrosion prevention and maintenance. Water landings are very hard on aircraft. And flying boats can be very difficult to fly. They also require airfields located or near the water (water front property is VERY expensive) and specialized equipment. Land based aircraft require any airport. And helicopters simply require a relatively clear, flat space. Basically, it all comes down to simple economics. It's a pity , as I for one would like to see the return of waterborne aircraft . But it's very unlikely we will see them return .

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/1/2007 9:49:23 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		In the fifties, Republic Aircraft brought out this nifty private seaplane called the SeaBee..It was ressurected in the sixties, and they are still out there. Strictly a novelty.




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< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/1/2007 9:50:58 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 12:19:41 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: qgaliana

On the other hand, civilian float planes still seem to be in reasonable use.


They are used a lot in Canada and Alaska. I don't know if it's still in operation, but there was a float plane airline that flew between Lake Union in Seattle and Victoria, BC.

The last two Matrin Mars flying boats are still operated as fire bombers. They are kept on a lake in British Columbia.

Bill

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 12:54:45 AM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Gidroaviasalon2006/Highlights/index.html

You want to sea modern float planes take a look at this site...

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 4:15:23 AM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: qgaliana

On the other hand, civilian float planes still seem to be in reasonable use.


They are used a lot in Canada and Alaska. I don't know if it's still in operation, but there was a float plane airline that flew between Lake Union in Seattle and Victoria, BC.

The last two Matrin Mars flying boats are still operated as fire bombers. They are kept on a lake in British Columbia.

Bill

The airline in Seattle is Kenmore air , and yes, they still operate floatplanes. But float planes are generally used where either there is no real need for an airport or it's too expensive to build one. With the exception of the Russians, Japanese or Chinese , I'm not aware of any other governments using them . The Japanese are phasing out their flying boats and I don't think any government (other than state or provincial for game wardens or such) use float planes. I understand that the Mars flying boats are about to be retired and several groups are trying preserve them for museums. I'm not sure If Chalks airline is still flying Albatros flying boats from Miami to Nassau any more , they were the last airline use of flying boats.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 4/2/2007 6:27:50 AM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 4:28:55 AM   
Cuttlefish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

In the fifties, Republic Aircraft brought out this nifty private seaplane called the SeaBee..It was ressurected in the sixties, and they are still out there. Strictly a novelty.




Here is a rather well known SeaBee. This picture also answers the OP's question about why float planes aren't used by the military today - they just can't stand up to solar-powered laser fire.








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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 3:25:02 PM   
Feinder


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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		There's a somewhat eccentric millionaire in Lakeland, Kermit Weeks, that spends his fortune restoring warbirds and other historical aircraft. He hosts a museum (Fantasy of Flight). Behind the place is really big man-made lake that hosts working seaplane pier, for his Sunderland flying boat.

99% of the time, it's in the hanger. But it is still flyable, and I guess he (yes he does fly them) was returning from an airshow somewhere, because it came in low over my house about a year ago (I recognized it, and knew it must have been on approach to Lakeland).

-THAT- was cool.

For a private museum, it's exceptional. Not the crates of junk that you see at the side of regional airports. It's certainly nothing on the scale of Dayton or Pensacola, but I'd say it's better the 8th AF museum in Savanna. Definately worth the stop if you're in Central Florida.

It seems that lots of cool stuff flys over my house (in Pasco county, not Tampa actually).

That travelling B-17 and the B-25 have buzzed over while on approach to Zypherhills. And whatever is lined up for the Bucs games on Sunday usually goes right over as well (B-2, pairs of F-18s and F-16s).

-F-

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 3:33:29 PM   
Feinder


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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		And I thought this was interesting.  It's comments on some of the special considerations of flying boats.

quote:


Kermit Comment

This aircraft can only take-off and land on the water.  The wheels on the sides are called beaching gear and are used only to get it to and from the water.  The airplane is towed by tractor to the top of the seaplane ramp and placed facing the water.  The wheels are chocked and the tractor moves to the rear of the aircraft where a rope is connected from the tractor to the release hook below the Sunderland’s tail.  The tractor backs up to tighten the rope and the aircraft’s engines are started.  Once warmed up, the chocks are removed and the pilot begins a slow taxi down the ramp.  The tractor in tow helps control the speed.  As soon as the Sunderland’s wheels touch the water, the tractor slackens the rope.  The pilot pulls a handle in the cockpit, and releases the rope as the aircraft taxis into the water.  Once moored, the beaching gear with its additional floatation attached is removed and towed back to shore by boat.

Steering on the water is done with differential throttling.  There is no water rudder on the Sunderland and it has no brakes or reversible propellers.  Operation on the water can get very interesting and it takes a lot of crew coordination.  When starting the aircraft for flight, one outboard engine is started first, generally the one closest to shore.  Once one engine is running and the mooring buoy released, the aircraft begins to move in a circle until the opposite outboard engine starts.  The two inboard engines are started.  After they are warmed up, the engines are run up two at a time.  When all the safety checks are completed, the aircraft is ready for take-off.

After landing, and prior to mooring, the engines are cooled down and the inboard engines are shut down first.  The pilot can steer the aircraft on the water by applying small amounts of throttle to the outboard engines.   Remember, there are no water rudders or reversible propellers.  In less than heavy wind conditions, this differential throttling allows the 'boat' to maintain far too much speed to moor and the aircraft easily will overrun the buoy.  Upon command from the pilot, the bowman releases the drogues out each side.  They are 3-foot canvas water parachutes that are attached each side of the nose and act as water brakes to slow it down further.  When in very calm wind conditions, this is still not enough to slow the aircraft down.  The pilot resorts to steering the aircraft by sailing the aircraft by using the flight controls to allow the wind to slowly turn the Boat.  In the last few moments the pilot can further steer and slow down by temporarily shutting the engines on and off with the magneto switches.

To perform maintenance on the water, the leading edges of the wings just outboard of each engine, hinge down to become work platforms.  With a portable stowed crane, the Sunderland has the ability to change an engine or propeller on the water.  Working on the water can be interesting, where dropping a tool takes on a totally new meaning.







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< Message edited by Feinder -- 4/2/2007 3:39:56 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 4:43:41 PM   
HansenII

 

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Joined: 1/10/2007
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Hi!

The russians used quite a few flying boats for ASW during the cold war, mainly in the Artic areas and the Pacific.

A mayor reason for pahsing out floatplanes is in my opinion that they increasingly became surplus due to the fact that modern turboprop & jet/turbofan etc powered aircraft started achieving much larger endurance. Since these aircrafts where less specialised in their basic design, the aircrafts became (unit by unit) much more expensive and complex, and every military tried to reduce its complexity / costs and thus the variants of tools for specific tasks, they - so to speak - lost the evolution contest.

The interesting compromise between heli and plane is the Osprey, but look at the tremendous costs...

regards

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 4:49:33 PM   
Dixie


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Status: offline 		I remember the first time I saw a flying boat.  It was a Catalina, and I was probably about 5-6.  My Granddad took me out to see it landing in Plymouth Sound, where it crashed instead  

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:00:15 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
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Status: offline 		Yeah - something like this is always a consideration in making your purchase (BTW - this LA-8 eventually sank at the airshow, always guaranteed to drum up purchasers: )




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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:06:26 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
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From: UK
Status: offline 		Found a pic of the Cat crashing

As a young lad I (obviously) thought it was great, and I got home in time to see it again on the local news from a different angle I've also been told that I kept asking 'Why did he do that? Did he mean to?'





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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:12:58 PM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		So - where's the pic?? Inquiring minds want to see it !!!

EDIT: if it is at Airliners.Net - they have something like 1,000,000+ photos - and the search engine is not fabulous.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/2/2007 5:17:43 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:15:57 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

So - where's the pic?? Inquiring minds want to see it !!!


The pic in the post above? Or are you just messing with my mind (not a difficult task really)

And here it is shortly before impressing a small child

Copyrighted pic, see it here

< Message edited by Dixie -- 4/2/2007 5:47:55 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:17:13 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Uh, Dixie... There's just a banner from airliners.net...

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:18:39 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

So - where's the pic?? Inquiring minds want to see it !!!


The pic in the post above? Or are you just messing with my mind (not a difficult task really)

And here it is shortly before impressing a small child





All i see in the pic in the post above is "Contact Airliners.Net for how to display our photos":

EDIT: Here is what we see:




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< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/2/2007 5:21:34 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:20:04 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Uh, Dixie... There's just a banner from airliners.net...


Strange, it shows up fine of my PC.

'Cause it's copyrighted, see it here

< Message edited by Dixie -- 4/2/2007 5:46:48 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:24:14 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Uh, Dixie... There's just a banner from airliners.net...


Strange, it shows up fine of my PC.

<removed because lawyers rule the world>

I knew there was a reason I got my own webspace


WOW!! Dixie, do you think he MEANT to do that???

Yeah, in linking stuff sometimes from different web sites, the poster can sometimes see stuff they linked, while the rest of the forum sees something entirely different!

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/2/2007 7:34:52 PM >

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:26:36 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

So - where's the pic?? Inquiring minds want to see it !!!


The pic in the post above? Or are you just messing with my mind (not a difficult task really)

And here it is shortly before impressing a small child



SO, it impressed you so much, you decided to go into the RAF where you could see things like this close up on a regular basis???

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RE: OT - Why no modern float plane/flying boat - 4/2/2007 5:27:29 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		That pic is copyrighted, not supposed to post it like that btw...

-F-

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