Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct?

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Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/7/2007 2:07:56 AM

KoenigMKII

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I get to turn 6 or 7 (playing Axis) and always get stopped cold. The PO USSR rails in entire armys and counter encircles any spearheads. If I don't probe to kill some of his rail links he just builds a huge wall of units.

The units seem tough enough, breaking through is short term and the exhausted and bled white wehrmacht is almost stopped on the 1939 Soviet border. I have tried to repair railways and advance forward supply units.

Is it just me or is rating the 2nd SS Das Reich div. at 80% proficiency, and a soviet militia unit just outside Leningrad at 60% a mistake?

To have (historically) even launched op typhoon on 22nd Sept. 1941 the Wehrmacht must have had a much higher advantage in starting proficiency than that, given the historical casualties they took before the 22nd.

Given the huge number of units mobilised by the soviets, if they are all at 60%, the Axis has got no chance. Or am I missing something very important?

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/7/2007 2:19:35 AM

m5000.2006

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many huge east front scenarios suffer from this affliction - too high proficiency of soviet units

i also have the impression that the proficiency is a little too high and the overall unit quality is lowered by e.g. lower readiness or supply, or missing equipment to resemble the historical situation

on the other hand, this is a long scenario, and correct if i'm wrong, it's impossible to change the proficiency of a unit deliberately* during the course of a game, remember that the time span is 4 years, and towards the end of the game, russian units generally had higher proficiency than at the beginning, so i guess that the initial proficiency is a kind of average proficiency calculated for the beginning and end of the campaign, it's not perfect but it seems fair enough for the whole game

* to the best of my knowledge unit proficiency can change during the course of a game if a unit succeeds or fails in combat, but this can't be planned by the designer, it's random to a large extent

< Message edited by m5000.2006 -- 4/7/2007 2:34:25 AM >

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/7/2007 2:42:15 AM

KoenigMKII

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I am talking about the divisional Barbarossa that ends in Feb. 42, I have never played the MP only FITE, that does go on for the full 4 year stint :-)

For large multi-year scenarios a fixed proficiency is going to be strange. To be honest, after turn 7 or so the soviet units are more like full 1942 Russian divisions - thats way too good.

Maybe TOAW IV will allow force proficiency to be individually set and later auto adjusted for casualties and mission experience for each division? Thats sounds greedy dosn't it... :-)

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/7/2007 2:43:58 AM

m5000.2006

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it does

but let's be hopeful

< Message edited by m5000.2006 -- 4/7/2007 2:45:50 AM >

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/9/2007 5:03:13 AM

r6kunz

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The problem of force variability during Barbarossa is one of the details that motivated me to design Road to Moscow series. The original version shipped with TOAW III. These are a series of eight linked scenarios (panzer regiment/infantry-rifle division level @ one day turns, 10 km hex). I designed these so that at each scenario of the campaign (Crossing the Border, Smolensk, Guderian moves south, Kiev, Briansk, At the Gates, Soviet Counterattack, and a What if...) has a reasonable chance of achieving the historic result.

The series was designed using TOAW-COW, and I am in the process of modifying the play balance for TOAW III.
Any feedback or comments from the forum would be appreciated
Thanks
Rob Kunz

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/9/2007 6:26:33 AM

m5000.2006

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i've played the first one - crossing the border, form the point of the German player, the thing that was annoying was that Germans seem to have great difficulty with supply, and this is the beginnig of Barbarossa...

very quickly, my units were orange and red, and i had problems with resupplying...

is it deliberate design?, one may think that at the beginning of the campaign, Germans should have more supply

this is not only in open terrain, but also along roads - level of supply goes down rather quickly

on the whole it was good fun though

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/9/2007 3:38:04 PM

SMK-at-work

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I just played Road to Moscow I as a result of reading this thread - managed a victory as the Axis getting Bobriusk, Berezina, Minsk as hte furthest objectives. It's a challenge for sure - most of my units were red or orange at hte end, but picking carefully they were still able to attack.

The scenario is only 12 days long, so you can't afford to think in terms of resupplying - you have to go hell for leather and assume that there'll be a bit of a break in a week or 2...

the scenario gives a great feel for hte "moving pockets" - groups of Sov units isolated by heading east, and also the speed difference between the infantry and motorised forces - nice one.

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/9/2007 4:00:16 PM

m5000.2006

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

[...] most of my units were red or orange at hte end, but picking carefully they were still able to attack [...]

true
-------------

but note that there is only one supply source - in Warsaw - and IMO it's a bit strange that you get 24/32 supply near Brest, but only 8 supply further in the North towards Army Group North, which is actually near Prussia (so there shoudn't be big problems with supply here i think), while Brest is in General Government and yet you get far more supply here

the units attacking from the north (XXXIX Mot Korps, and LVII Mot Korps) have access to suprisingly little amount of supply, this results from the fact that there's only one supply source and a certain supply radius setting chosen by the designer...

by the way, i've just noticed a mistake - in northern part of the map, near XXXIX Mot Korps, and LVII Mot Korps there are marks on the map which denote a boundary between army groups - i think it should be between Army Group North, and Centre, not South

< Message edited by m5000.2006 -- 4/9/2007 4:07:43 PM >

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/9/2007 4:16:21 PM

r6kunz

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Thanks for the feedback. I will add at least one more supply point.

Note that in general, German supply is
Crossing the Border: Force=25% Formation 90% Units 150%
DnO; Force=25% Formation 65% Units 150%
FitE: Force=30% Formation 80% Units 100%
Operation Barbarossa: Force=25% Formation 65% Units 100%

Good pickup on the Group boundary between AG Center and North. I will change that right now.
Rob

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RE: Barbarossa - Force proficiency correct? - 4/10/2007 3:40:00 AM

SMK-at-work

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Oh yes - that single supply point did seem a bit silly - especially when a Sov unit RETREATED so its zoc blocked the sole north-south rail line so completely screwing supply in the northen sector...gr.....

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