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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> sinking battleships Page: [1]
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sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 4:57:12 AM   
toonces

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		Hi all,
I saw a thread about this a while back but lost it.

Short version- I've been hitting a Japanese fleet at anchor at Shortlands repeatedly with LBA from Pt. Moresby. For about two weeks I've been hitting the port every other day with over a hundred B-17's et al. Finally the other day, I scrambled a 2 CV task force in and hit the fleet combined with LBA and CV aircraft. After the attack which saw some Jap BB's taking 10+ bomb hits on top of the cumulative damage from previous raids, I still haven't sunk a BB. So, I cheated. I saved the game, went in on the Jap side and checked the status of the Jap BB's. There were at least 8 there, maybe more. Pretty much every one was at 99 Sys damage, but not a single one had a single point of damage on FLT or the other type of damage.

So, the question is how to sink these ships?

Also, I didn't score a single torpedo hit with my CV based air. I'm assuming there must be torpedo nets or something there.

Thanks,
Toonces
Post #: 1
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 5:09:19 AM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline 		All bombs do to Battleships is deafen the personnel and scratch the paint (system damage). Need torps to sink BBs.

Lee

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(in reply to toonces)
Post #: 2
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 5:13:58 AM   
toonces

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		Will the game model torpedo nets, or did I just have unlucky TBF's?

I don't know what else I can get in there with torpedoes except CV air, and I don't want to risk my carriers too many times with Rabaul still active.

Thanks,
Toonces

(in reply to rogueusmc)
Post #: 3
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 5:17:49 AM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		The Japanese Bomb (800kg) can finish off damaged BBs in port(if playing Japanese) - but is not a sure deal (but torpedoes are your best bet as rogue stated)

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 4/11/2007 5:20:36 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 5:43:23 AM   
alaviner


Posts: 764
Joined: 3/8/2007
From: Blacksburg, Va
Status: offline 		Don't waste more planes trying to sink the BBs - They will not be going ay where any time soon with 99sys damage.  Wait until you capture Shortlands and they will scuttle.  Park a few ss around there just in case they repair enough to try to sortie.

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Post #: 5
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 6:00:31 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		failing that send a destroyer flotilla into the harbor...




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Post #: 6
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 6:11:40 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

All bombs do to Battleships is deafen the personnel and scratch the paint (system damage). Need torps to sink BBs.

Lee




Tell that to the crew of the ARIZONA.

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Post #: 7
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 6:30:33 AM   
toonces

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		Well, that's kind of the mentality I was thinking.  Then again, it's a game, so if it's modeled such that my bombs aren't going to sink these ships, then no sense wasting alot more time and morale on trying.

I don't understand why bombs don't cause FLT damage though...I would think that eventually enough bombs would get in there to start poking holes in the armor.

Thanks for the other suggestions.  I did try sending a large surface DD group in there, but the shore batteries did quite a number on my DD's. 

I'll have to scrounge around and see if I can find something that can reach Shortlands from Lunga, and carry torpedoes.  Then I might be in business.

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Post #: 8
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 6:32:41 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

All bombs do to Battleships is deafen the personnel and scratch the paint (system damage). Need torps to sink BBs.

Lee




Tell that to the crew of the ARIZONA.




agreed, rest their souls

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Post #: 9
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 6:33:25 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toonces

Well, that's kind of the mentality I was thinking. Then again, it's a game, so if it's modeled such that my bombs aren't going to sink these ships, then no sense wasting alot more time and morale on trying.

I don't understand why bombs don't cause FLT damage though...I would think that eventually enough bombs would get in there to start poking holes in the armor.

Thanks for the other suggestions. I did try sending a large surface DD group in there, but the shore batteries did quite a number on my DD's.

I'll have to scrounge around and see if I can find something that can reach Shortlands from Lunga, and carry torpedoes. Then I might be in business.


Beauforts

transfer them

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Post #: 10
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:23:23 AM   
toonces

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Marky,
I was browsing through the A/C database and found out they carry torps.  I have one squadron there, but I'm going to need to round up squadrons from all over the map.

On a separate note, I launched a TBF strike, 8 TBF's only in the attack, and they only reported 'bomb hits'. 

Why am I not scoring torp hits with TBF's? 

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Post #: 11
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:36:11 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		range is too great for em to carry fish

also if ur really desperate try Cats

set to port night naval attack


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Post #: 12
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:39:49 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		If it was a naval strike, then you probably launched outside their "normal" range and they had to revert to their "extended" range loadout.

If it was a port attack, there is a die roll as to whether torpedoes are used in any aerial port attack (when torpedo carrying aircraft are involved in the attack).

The Japanese 800kg bomb is certainly capable of sinking battleships, but there isn't really an allied equivalent - thus IJN BBs can sit in port and absorb bomb hits all day long. If you're really lucky, you might create enough fires on the ship to cause the flotation damage to increase as they fight the fires.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 13
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:41:36 AM   
marky


Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

If it was a naval strike, then you probably launched outside their "normal" range and they had to revert to their "extended" range loadout.

If it was a port attack, there is a die roll as to whether torpedoes are used in any aerial port attack (when torpedo carrying aircraft are involved in the attack).



forgot about that lil tidbit...

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Post #: 14
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 1:59:39 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The Japanese 800kg bomb is certainly capable of sinking battleships, but there isn't really an allied equivalent - thus IJN BBs can sit in port and absorb bomb hits all day long. If you're really lucky, you might create enough fires on the ship to cause the flotation damage to increase as they fight the fires.


Those 800 kg bombs aren't necessarily a given either. I bombed the heck out of the Arizona and Pennsylvania in Adak. The Arizona took 3 torps and 22 800 kg bombs and the Pennsylvania took 3 torps and 17 800 kg bombs. Neither sank. They will be out of the war for a year or two though, once they make it back to the West coast.

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Post #: 15
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 2:01:05 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

If it was a naval strike, then you probably launched outside their "normal" range and they had to revert to their "extended" range loadout.

If it was a port attack, there is a die roll as to whether torpedoes are used in any aerial port attack (when torpedo carrying aircraft are involved in the attack).

The Japanese 800kg bomb is certainly capable of sinking battleships, but there isn't really an allied equivalent - thus IJN BBs can sit in port and absorb bomb hits all day long. If you're really lucky, you might create enough fires on the ship to cause the flotation damage to increase as they fight the fires.


The other problem that can affect torpedo bombers (though probably not TBF) is too small an airfield size... 2 engine bombers need at least size 4 airfield to carry a torpedo.

The Allies get 2000 pound AP bombs in August 1942, iirc... and these will do in those pesky BBs, if you can get your bombers to carry them. They have to go through a series of checks to do so. This was put in during a patch and there was quite a bit of confusion as to what was actually put in (AP vs GP - i think there was originally an error), so check release notes (which i don't have on this computer) for details.

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Post #: 16
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 2:18:31 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		If you really want to sink these BB, sail close with your CV to be in torpedo range and launch the TBF at small alt (100 feet). They will almost always carry torpedoes. They will suffer from AA but if these BB are as devastated as you said most AA guns should have been destroyed already.

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Post #: 17
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 2:42:44 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Multi-BB Bombardment TF can also get lucky...but it's rare.

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Post #: 18
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 4:30:30 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Ships in a medium to large size port are much more difficult to "sink" (sink defined as "removed from the game") because the port works to repair or lower FLT damage at the end of each turn. If the BB's are at 99% SYS they are, abstractly speaking, already "sunk" but are still in the game as playing pieces, sitting on the mud of the harbor. The "abstraction" part comes from the fact that even with a speed of "0", any ship can move a minimum of one hex per movement phase.

But at 99% SYS, the ships are out of the war in all the ways that count combat wise (You just arn't getting VP's for them being sunk) Even if the BB is gotten to a port with a ship yard it would take 6 months to a year to bring it back to any kind of servicability.

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Post #: 19
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 7:01:27 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Ships in a medium to large size port are much more difficult to "sink" (sink defined as "removed from the game") because the port works to repair or lower FLT damage at the end of each turn. If the BB's are at 99% SYS they are, abstractly speaking, already "sunk" but are still in the game as playing pieces, sitting on the mud of the harbor. The "abstraction" part comes from the fact that even with a speed of "0", any ship can move a minimum of one hex per movement phase.

But at 99% SYS, the ships are out of the war in all the ways that count combat wise (You just arn't getting VP's for them being sunk) Even if the BB is gotten to a port with a ship yard it would take 6 months to a year to bring it back to any kind of servicability.


I agree. It is my experience that you have to be pretty lucky to sink BBs or CVs in a moderate sized port. The port lowers FLT damage too fast. It is particularly hard if you have a lot of capital ships in a port because the bomb and torpedo hits will be spread out among the various ships. You probably need 4-6 torpedo hits on a single BB in port to have a chance of really sinking her.

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Post #: 20
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:15:13 PM   
Snowman999

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline 		Hello all. First post here. Been playing against AI for about 1.5 years. On third full game as Allies.

Just wanted to add that, in last game, I bombed Mutsu in port with B-29s for weeks. Over 850 bomb hits, which in reality should have reduced her to nuts and bolts. 99 sys damage, 0 flotation damage. On some raids I got 150+ hits on her in single attack. I know BB armor is good, but not that good. At end of game she was still alive.

Great game, but sometimes it's frustrating.

< Message edited by Snowman999 -- 4/11/2007 8:16:48 PM >

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Snowman999

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Post #: 21
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:19:16 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Snowman999

Hello all. First post here. Been playing against AI for about 1.5 years. On third full game as Allies.

Just wanted to add that, in last game, I bombed Mutsu in port with B-29s for weeks. Over 850 bomb hits, which in reality should have reduced her to nuts and bolts. 99 sys damage, 0 flotation damage. On some raids I got 150+ hits on her in single attack. I know BB armor is good, but not that good.



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Post #: 22
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 8:37:03 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Snowman999

Hello all. First post here. Been playing against AI for about 1.5 years. On third full game as Allies.

Just wanted to add that, in last game, I bombed Mutsu in port with B-29s for weeks. Over 850 bomb hits, which in reality should have reduced her to nuts and bolts. 99 sys damage, 0 flotation damage. On some raids I got 150+ hits on her in single attack. I know BB armor is good, but not that good. At end of game she was still alive.

Great game, but sometimes it's frustrating.


That has GOT to be a hold (or hang)over from Pacific War. In that game, I had numerous CT TFs strike ports with CV or CVL in them which took over a hundred hits each and never sank. They never went anywhere, but the never sank. Frustrating as the most beautiful girl in class telling you that you're a great friend.

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Post #: 23
RE: sinking battleships - 4/11/2007 11:25:56 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I've ranted about this before, but frequently ships get to 99% Sys damage and become invincible.  This is especially true when in port.  In the real world the ship would be scuttled by the crew when it reached that point.

Another thing, that can be fixed with a mod is that US dive bombers carry a 500 lb GP bomb as standard armament.  The standard load for anti shipping strikes was a 1000 Lb.  AP if going against warships.  The device file doesn't even include a 1000 lb AP.

In my tweak of CHS, I added an Allied 1000lb AP and armed US dive bombers with it.  It turns SBDs into an effective anti shipping weapon.

On port strikes, torpedo bombers will usually carry bombs.  If they pass a check, they may carry torpedos.

Bill


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Post #: 24
RE: sinking battleships - 4/12/2007 3:26:31 AM   
toonces

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for the help all.

This is really helpful, and I'm sure it's been answered a thousand times before.

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Post #: 25
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