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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 5:32:51 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

Okay.  Then in that case, either make both Rarity 2 (1500+ 105mm FK and ~350 170mm FK produced during the war), or make the 105mm Rarity 1 and the 170mm Rarity 2.  Your call.

I have no idea what the armor-penetation tables looked like for the AP rounds for these two guns.  I know that the AP values for the 170mm gun were enormous, and that the 105mm gun also had very good penetration with AP.  But I don't have proving-ground numbers.  The AP rounds were mainly used to destroy fortified positions, but were certainly capable of blowing up tanks too.

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 5:46:11 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

Here is my guess at AP penetration for the two guns based on looking at other weapons in the Encyclopedia.

105mm K 18
1  150
10 142
20 135
30 128
40 121
50 114

170mm K 18
1   180
10  176
20  173
30  170
40  167
50  164

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 5:46:39 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		I think some howitzers and FGs are issued "heat" rounds and the game program converts it to AP somehow or another...i need to confirm this though......

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Post #: 33
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 5:52:39 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

I used the American 155mm gun for comparison purposes.  The Americann 155mm gun is issued AP rounds and no HEAT rounds.

Standard ammo load for an American 155mm gun is 50 rounds HE and 10 rounds AP.  So giving the German guns 40 HE and either 4 or 6 AP looks fine.

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Post #: 34
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 5:57:36 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

I used the American 155mm gun for comparison purposes.  The Americann 155mm gun is issued AP rounds and no HEAT rounds.

Standard ammo load for an American 155mm gun is 50 rounds HE and 10 rounds AP.  So giving the German guns 40 HE and either 4 or 6 AP looks fine.

The US 155mm FG Off board unit has HEAT ammo issued, not AP ammo, but has AP pen stats, not HEAT stats, and the Onboard unit has AP rounds issued... so before I proceed further I need to confirm some things on how the program handles this.

the oob editor automatically does the HE ammo loadouts.


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Post #: 35
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 5:58:57 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

You are on the leader. . .

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Post #: 36
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:04:38 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

After looking at other artillery crews in the game, I would give the 105mm gun a crew of 8 and weight of 209.  I would give the 170mm gun a crew of 10 and a weight of 213 (it could not be horse-towed, so it must have a weight greater than 212).

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:06:46 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		on the leader???

I suspect maybe even the 155 USA FG may be in error looking at these ammo loadouts as far as Heat and AP between the  offboard and onboard units.
but then again, it may be correct and the CODE handles things differently.
I will hold off for now until I get some confirmations...



< Message edited by Alby -- 4/6/2007 6:12:17 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:08:25 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

Does the game automatically calculate game ranges when you enter a gun range in yards?
The 105mm gun has a range of 21000 yards.  Does the game automatically convert that into SPWAW range?
The 170mm gun has a range of 32000 yards.  Does the game automatically convert that into SPWAW range?

[P.S. It's a quote from Star Wars, "I am on the leader."]

< Message edited by vahauser -- 4/6/2007 6:09:57 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:11:10 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

Does the game automatically calculate game ranges when you enter a gun range in yards?
The 105mm gun has a range of 21000 yards.  Does the game automatically convert that into SPWAW range?
The 170mm gun has a range of 32000 yards.  Does the game automatically convert that into SPWAW range?

I am actually unsure exactly how the game handles/calculates ranges....
I do know there is a max range you can enter....229 IIRC.
Flashfyre is the expert on this type stuff, he is out of town, so until he gets back, I am on hold...

There are artillery units that have HEAT penetration stats, but no HEAT ammo issued...
so again, I am on hold for now...



< Message edited by Alby -- 4/6/2007 6:14:46 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:14:04 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
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Status: offline 		Alby,

Okay.  Well, at least we got a lot accomplished until Flash returns.

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Post #: 41
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:17:15 PM   
Alby


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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

After looking at other artillery crews in the game, I would give the 105mm gun a crew of 8 and weight of 209.  I would give the 170mm gun a crew of 10 and a weight of 213 (it could not be horse-towed, so it must have a weight greater than 212).

heheheh once again, the crew number is supposed to equal the last number of the "weight"


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Post #: 42
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:22:41 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		One other thing.....I use the accuracy numbers in the OOB editor...not the encycloedia number...
so when you say '17', some times it may be misconstrued.



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Post #: 43
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:29:05 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Suggested 10cm K 18 stats (correct screenshot):






why do you suggest AP penetration double that of the the LeFH18??
thats more than the USA 155mm FH


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Post #: 44
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 6:54:47 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

You still seem to be having trouble grasping the difference between a gun and a howitzer.  For example, the 75mm L48 mounted on the Pz IVH is a gun.  The 75mm L24 mounted on the Pz IVC is a howitzer.  Look at the penetration differences between those two weapons.  The 75mm L24 has a maximum penetration of 57mm, and the 75mm L48 has a maximum penetration of 140mm.  That is one of the differences between a gun and a howitzer.

Now, to put this in perspective, the 105mm K 18 FK is not an L48 like the Pz IVH.  It is an L51 (even longer), with a muzzle velocity of nearly 2800 feet per second.  That muzzle velocity is what gives it its long range as well as its hitting power.



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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 7:05:17 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Alby,

Let's take this further.  Guns are much bigger than howitzers.  The 105mm gun is mounted on the same carriage as the 150mm howitzer.  The 170mm gun is mounted on the same carriage as the 210mm howitzer.  Basically this means that the 105mm gun should have the same carry weight as the 150mm howitzer. 

Crew size doesn't apply to guns the same as howitzers because guns are much bigger.  The operating weight of the 105mm howitzer is 4300 pounds.  The operating weight of the 105mm gun is 11400 pounds.  Much bigger.  The 170mm gun could not be towed by horses.  Too big.  So the carry weight of the 170mm gun must be at least 213 regardless of the crew size so that horses cannot carry it.

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Post #: 46
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 9:14:04 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

You still seem to be having trouble grasping the difference between a gun and a howitzer.  For example, the 75mm L48 mounted on the Pz IVH is a gun.  The 75mm L24 mounted on the Pz IVC is a howitzer.  Look at the penetration differences between those two weapons.  The 75mm L24 has a maximum penetration of 57mm, and the 75mm L48 has a maximum penetration of 140mm.  That is one of the differences between a gun and a howitzer.

Now, to put this in perspective, the 105mm K 18 FK is not an L48 like the Pz IVH.  It is an L51 (even longer), with a muzzle velocity of nearly 2800 feet per second.  That muzzle velocity is what gives it its long range as well as its hitting power.



I am grasping it ok, I am just wondering where you came up with that number..



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Post #: 47
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/6/2007 9:44:34 PM   
vahauser


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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

Since I don't have proving-ground penetration data, I had to estimate.  I looked at the 75mm L48 tank gun and the 88mm L56 Flak gun.  Since the 105mm gun is L51, I estimated the armor penetration between the 75mm L48 (140) and the 88mm L56 (162). 

I actually think that 148mm penetration is a little low for the 105mm K 18 FK, but since I don't think that the gun will be used in an antitank role very often (like never), then a 'reasonable' estimate should be okay until somebody can provide us with proving-ground penetration data.

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 5:46:40 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		I am confused about one thing...you were talking about this unit for "counter battery" fire...yet the range you want is only slightly greater than the 105mm FH and the stats you are giving are all "onboard" stats...
crew 8,  weight 210...ect ect...


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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 7:38:54 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

I'm not sure how the range algorithm works. 

How does 21000 yards (the range of the 105mm K18 FK) translate into SPWAW range?

How does 32000 yards (the range of the 170mm K 18 FK) translate into SPWAW range?

The longest SPWAW range I've ever seen is 240 hexes for heavy naval guns. 

My guess is that SPWAW uses some sort of 'increment of 4' range to determine counterbattery effectiveness. 240, 236, 232, 228, 224, 220, 216, etc. 

Anyway, 21000 yards should be pretty high up on the counter-battery scale, and 32000 yards should be right below heavy naval guns (my guess is 236 hexes).

I'm providing on-map ratings and stats because once we have those it is easy to create an off-board unit based on the on-board stats.

Here is my latest estimate of the 105mm K 18 FK on-board stats:

Accuracy 68
Range 224 or 228 (or whatever 21000yds translates into)
Rate of Fire 5
Fire Control 2
Range Finder 1
HE Kill 9
Warhead 6
Crew 8
Weight 210
HE Penetration 37
AP Penetration 1:150, 10:142, 20:135, 30:128, 40:121, 50:114
Rarity 1


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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 7:49:05 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

Here is my latest estimate of the 170mm K 18 FK on-board stats:

Accuracy 68
Range 236 (or whatever 32000yds translates into)
Rate of Fire 3
Fire Control 2
Range Finder 1
HE Kill 19
Warhead 11
Crew 10
Weight 213
HE Penetration 61
AP Penetration 1:180, 10:176, 20:173, 30:170, 40:167, 50:164
Rarity 2


< Message edited by vahauser -- 4/7/2007 9:23:21 AM >

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 2:21:12 PM   
264rifle

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		Vanhauser, I suggest you get your facts straight before critizing Alby.

A short barrel does not a howitzer make. It doesn't matter how many peaple may have called the 75mm L24 a howitzer, it wasn't one. It used fixed ammunition (no variable charge) and had limited elevation. It may have been a very short barreled gun but it was a gun. See British WW I 6pd tank guns, cutting barrels from 40+ calibers in length to 23 did not turn them into howitzers.

I already gave you an armour peircing number for the 170mm. it is over the max that the game allows so the best that can be done is give it the Maximum.

I would also be very, very careful useing ANY numbers in the game for comparison purposes when it comes to artillery. The game's artillery numbers have been FUBAR for many, many versions ( Alby I am sorry but I don't have the latest enhanced loaded) Many countries have wrong weapons, wrong ranges and other mistakes.

According to the 'Manuel" written for V5.0 artillery ranges are= the range number devided by 4 up to 200. example= range of 160 in the editer comes out as a range of 40 hexes which is 2000 yds/meters. once 200 is reached the last TWO numbers are multiplied by EIGHT for range. 208=64 hexes, 216=128 hexes, 224=172 hexes and so on except that the max number is 231. this means a max range of 248 hexes or 12400yds/meters.

The only soluton I see is to pick a number for range than will cover most on board use, 100-120 hexes? (make a suggestion)120 hexes =215 in the editor. then pro rate all artillery into the 16 ranges that are left. 16 catagories to cover all ranges from 6000yds/meters to 32,000+ yds/meters. Sounds simple until you start to use it. There are gaps of 2,000 yds or more were no gun falls into and there are guns with ranges less than 2,000 yds apart that that histories have made a lot of one being able to out range the other.

I may be mistaken but at some point in time some kind soul () decided when redoing the OBBs that ALL 75mm art should have a range of 128, similar 'commen' ranges can be found for other calibers. I as recall this was NOT so in Vs 3.0

When it comes to commen counter battery fire you might want to check out the ranges of most modern (not WW I leftovers) 75-76mm feild artillery vrs 100-105 howitzers. Then check game ranges.

Alby and Flash Have done a tremendous amount of work on the enhanced version. Unfortunatly there were more mistakes in the originial versions than ANY TWO MEN (even with some help) could possiably catch unless they quit their day jobs and spent weeks longer than they did on the project.

(in reply to vahauser)
Post #: 52
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 3:27:48 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
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Status: offline 		264rifle,

Your points are well taken. 

However, I don't think anybody intends to re-work all the artillery ratings in Enhanced DV anytime soon.  And that's the reason I used "comparative" ratings in my estimates.  I know that my estimates aren't proving-ground accurate.  But they have to fit within the existing framework, however broken that framework is.  And, within that framework, I think the latest estimates I've given Alby fit well.

Perhaps someday somebody will attempt to rework all the Enhanced DV artillery ratings.  But that day is not this day.  I'd be happy to contribute to such a project if it ever gets undertaken.

Howitzer

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A howitzer is a type of artillery piece that is characterized by a relatively short barrel and the use of comparatively small explosive charges to propel projectiles at trajectories with a steep angle of descent. In the taxonomies of artillery pieces used by European (and European-style) armies in the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the howitzer stood between the "gun" (which were characterized by a longer barrel, larger propelling charges, smaller shells, higher velocities and flatter trajectories) and a "mortar" (which has the ability to fire projectiles at even higher angles of ascent and descent.)  By the early 20th Century the differences between gun and howitzers were generally recognised[7] as follows:
  • Guns - higher velocity and longer range, single charge propellant, maximum elevation generally less than 35 degrees.
  • Howitzers - lower velocity and shorter range, multi-charge propellant, maximum elevation close to 45 degrees and upwards.


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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 4:30:55 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

Here is my latest estimate of the 170mm K 18 FK on-board stats:

Accuracy 68
Range 236 (or whatever 32000yds translates into)
Rate of Fire 3
Fire Control 2
Range Finder 1
HE Kill 19
Warhead 11
Crew 10
Weight 213
HE Penetration 61
AP Penetration 1:180, 10:176, 20:173, 30:170, 40:167, 50:164
Rarity 2


once again, crew number needs to always match last number of weight...
weight 213=13 crew....
I cant explain how it works in the code, but thats how it is suppose to be.
One note on ROF numbers for artillery
we used a standard number for Guns of particular caliber...
all guns of 150mm and up to 200mm have ROF=4 for onboard and 5 for offboard
over 200mm ROF drops to 2 and 3
We came up with some kind of "Standard" for artillery as these numbers were all over the place when we started this project with no consistancy or logic.
Needless to say we had to go thru each and every artillery piece in the game.

Also RGF and targetting differ for onboard and offboard units....dont ask me why,, but thats how the program in the editor does it...Rgf goes to 0 for offboard units.
FC stays at 2

I for one will not attempt to go thru and try to correct all the artillery ranges in the game.....I suck at math for one and that task is just too BIG!!


< Message edited by Alby -- 4/7/2007 4:43:10 PM >

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/7/2007 10:41:53 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Alby,

Well, the weight of the 170mm K 18 FK needs to be 213, so if you have to make the crew larger, then okay.

Perhaps when FlashFyre returns he will know some tricks to make everything work out okay.

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RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/8/2007 12:29:35 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Flashfyre DID offer up an explanation as to how SPWaW range values work. I recall having seen it.

As with many of the values in the game, the game code treats these in abstract ways, so simply plugging in perceived historical values can create havoc.

None of this is new territory. The "nuggets" are buried within the forum archives AND the game manual. Even at that, the manual contains its fair share of errors (it hasn't been updated since verion 5.0). It just takes some diligent searching.

A definitive treatise on "How The Numbers Work" has yet to be written.

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Post #: 56
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/8/2007 4:07:43 PM   
264rifle

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		For "Historical" accuracy you could make ALL the really big artillery weigh 255

Most of these things needed hours, not minutes to come off tow and emplace or hook back up again.

Until there is a project to correct the multitude of errors (I am just talking range, not even the other errors) then I would suggest leaving things alone. Piece-mealing corrections without realing knowing how some of the numbers work is what got us into this mess.

Manual says max rage is 231. I have no idea what happens if a value higher than that is put in. There are a number of weapons with ranges over 231 now.

It is also not fair to add/correct one OOB and not some of the others. The British 4.5 was actually two weapons. One, the howitzer, was about the size of a WW I 75mm and had arange of 6,600yds or less (120mm mortar range.) the other was a GUN mounted on the 5.5 carriage (orr American 155 how carriage) and fired to over 20,000 yds, same ranges as German 10cm K 18 and because of poor shell performance was used for the same mission, counter battery fire.

Edit> Any 'BIG' "GUNS" (not howitzers) used on board should be 'classed' so that they can't indirect fire on the map. With their high muzzle velocities and small number of possiable zone charges (or no zone charges) they are going to have a minium range for indirect fire of thousands of yards (40-60 hexes?) Getting a wacking big AT gun that can also cause spash damage in indirect fire at 1200yds range might be a power gamers dream but it just didn't happen in real life.<edit

Of course and as always any player is free to make any ajustments to his/her own personal OOB's

< Message edited by 264rifle -- 4/8/2007 4:20:49 PM >

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Post #: 57
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/13/2007 7:28:09 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		Alby, vahauser has gas. Do not mod anything yet!!!

First look at the production stats that he posted. Only 8 produced in 1939. If this was a standard weapon of the divisions the german army would indeed be hurting in the artillery department.
It took me a while to post because I looked into the series of books by Nafziger on the german OOB's of WWII. I have found that the K18 gun was in only some SS (mostly armored but some infantry divisions) and other Panzer divisions and some other elite divisions. Batteries were always of 4 guns and at most 2 batteries were issued to a division. In most cases however only one battery was issued. Also it seems that many of these divisions, but not all, lost their K18s some time in 1944 and these batteries were exchanged for 150mm sFH. This would make sence as the K18 was considered to be heavy artillery.
From what I have read most K18 guns were in independant, corps or army artillery units.

vahauser,
The 128mm Pz SflV did exist in 1942. The Russians captured one late 1943 and put it on display in 1944. A photo of one in action showed 22 kill rings on the barrel. Only 2 built but very effective. It was built on the VK3001(H) hull that was extended. These hulls were to be for the first Tiger tanks but the designe was rejected.
The second German UBER weapon also existed.
The 105mm K18 auf Pz Sfl IVa (notice they were armed with the K18 gun!!) were ment for other operations but ended up in Russia with the 3rd armored division.Again only 2 were built. Durring operations one was destroyed but not after they destroyed many Soviet tanks. The last vehicle was returned to Germany on 10/41.

IMHO the K18 should only be a OBA unit except in the case of the Pz Sfl IVa that was used as a TD.


< Message edited by Kevin E. Duguay -- 4/13/2007 7:30:22 AM >

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Post #: 58
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/13/2007 8:35:24 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		Hello again!!

The K18 did not have a HEAT round issued for it.

The standard issue 105mm was the 105mm leFH 18. This was a howitzer that was some what wanting in the range department. Both the British 25 pounder and the Russian 76mm field gun out ranged this weapon by 1,500 to 2,000+ yds!
German gun------11675 yrds
25 pounder-------13400 yrds
76mm M1939-----14500 yrds

All improvements to this gun lead to an M modle that had little effect on the range of the weapon. With special ammo it could reach out to 13479 ydy. Still out of range of the Soviet 76mm gun.
Even the 150mm sFH 18 only had a range of 14490 yds, still with in range of the Soviet 76mm gun.
This is why some German divisions were issued the long range 105mm K 18.

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Post #: 59
RE: Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues - 4/13/2007 4:29:58 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		I did not add the "unit"  however I did add the weapon, for Scenario designers


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Post #: 60
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