map and stuff

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

map and stuff

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Forge of Freedom: The American Civil War 1861-1865 >> map and stuff

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

map and stuff - 4/29/2007 11:09:52 PM

General Quarters

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

I have always loved maps, especially historic maps. When I was a kid, I would look at the maps in my dad's old college textbooks -- and always found the medieval maps so puzzling, since the Hapsburgs seemed to be everywhere. Lots of the old boardgames had great maps and that was one of the pleasures, as it is in a computer game.

The FOF map is a case in point. Not only is it pleasing to look at, but it looks like the kind of map a general, or Lincoln or Davis, would use. I like that element of historical flavor.

I also enjoy the way the photos appear and disappear on some screens while you are waiting. And the logo -- the ancient helmet -- is very classic and classy. Congratulations to whoever is responsible for these elements of design.

Post #: 1

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 1:56:21 AM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

Here here. I agree. Hats off.
Christian

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 2

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 2:32:03 AM

Gil R.

Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

The map was researched mainly by Mr. Z, and created by Pixelpusher, so I'll take no credit (other than for saying, "Yeah, that looks like a map").

I can take some credit for the photos, in that I had a hand in scouring the web to look for those (as well as for the photos used to illustrate many of the upgrades). I'm glad you like those. Incidentally, we really wanted to use lots of period newspapers such as Harper's Weekly to further enhance the game's look, but the main website that has scans of them wanted to charge us a rather hefty sum, one large enough that it would have doubled our graphics budget had we purchased a bunch. (Most people don't realize it -- after all, why would they need to know this? -- but there's an interesting part of U.S. copyright law that states that if someone scans something in the public domain -- e.g., Harper's Weekly from 1861 -- the scan itself becomes one's protected property. It's a pity, since the game would have looked even better.)

Pixelpusher's not very fond of the spinning-helmet logo. Personally, I like it. Maybe I'll start a poll thread so that we can all vote.

< Message edited by Gil R. -- 4/30/2007 2:34:17 AM >

(in reply to cesteman)

Post #: 3

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 8:40:11 AM

pixelpusher

Posts: 689
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

Aw, shucks! Thanks for the kind words, folks. It's always good to know that somebody out there actually enjoys all those little bits of polishing one puts into one's work!

quote:

I also enjoy the way the photos appear and disappear on some screens while you are waiting. And the logo -- the ancient helmet -- is very classic and classy. Congratulations to whoever is responsible for these elements of design.

Hi GQ:
Yup, that would be me. Generally I think we (WCS) tend to like calm, understated things that are functional but refined. We were certainly striving for a historical, period feel for Forge of Freedom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters
I have always loved maps, especially historic maps. <...> The FOF map is a case in point. Not only is it pleasing to look at, but it looks like the kind of map a general, or Lincoln or Davis, would use. I like that element of historical flavor.

Yep, that's what we were going for. The map is really an important piece of a game... the player spends a LOT of time staring at it. The Forge map is loosely based on an British map from about 1870, which had most of the RR data. We look at lots and lots of maps to develop our games, so we definitely develop opinions about what a good in-game maps should be like.

I'm a total map geek, myself. (I was just listening to a book on tape about WW2, and following along in the atlas!) Medieval maps are great. All the pre-cartographic maps are fantastic. I particularly like Japanese maps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.
Pixelpusher's not very fond of the spinning-helmet logo. Personally, I like it. Maybe I'll start a poll thread so that we can all vote.

Well, I would prefer something a bit more understated, and where it is easier to read the logo. There's no reason it should be spinning, really, and I feel like it's going to smack me in the forehead.

I'd like to use something more like the attached image below. It looks much better bigger, of course!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 4

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 10:58:47 AM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I can take some credit for the photos, in that I had a hand in scouring the web to look for those (as well as for the photos used to illustrate many of the upgrades). I'm glad you like those. Incidentally, we really wanted to use lots of period newspapers such as Harper's Weekly to further enhance the game's look, but the main website that has scans of them wanted to charge us a rather hefty sum, one large enough that it would have doubled our graphics budget had we purchased a bunch. (Most people don't realize it -- after all, why would they need to know this? -- but there's an interesting part of U.S. copyright law that states that if someone scans something in the public domain -- e.g., Harper's Weekly from 1861 -- the scan itself becomes one's protected property. It's a pity, since the game would have looked even better.)

Thanks for the info Gil R. I was planning on asking at some point what it takes to make a wonderful game like this. I am not interested in knowing what your budget is etc., but what goes into the planning and research for something of this scale. I think it would make an interesting thread for us to read. Maybe it would make those who always gripe about this problem or that problem understand what it takes to make FoF or any game for that matter come to life. I think it will open everyones' eyes and maybe then if they want something they can become involved and help out. My two cents

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 5

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 7:04:00 PM

General Quarters

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

Very interesting, Pixelpusher, about the maps. For those who love maps and ever get to Washington DC, here's a tip for you. I used to work on the Hill and would often enter the James Madison building, a newer Library of Congress building across the street, at the rear, below ground level, and passed by the Map room. They always had a display in the hall of new maps of some kind. And the map room itself is a cornucopia of all kinds of maps. Well worth putting on your visit list for your next trip to DC.

(in reply to cesteman)

Post #: 6

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 7:07:39 PM

General Quarters

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

On the question about the planning and research for a game like this, I too would be very interested in a step by step account. It is hard for me to imagine going from the back of the envelope stage of planning for something like this to the finished product. What was the first idea for the game?

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 7

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 9:12:33 PM

MarcusCSA

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

I would just like to add that I agree that the map is really really nice, clear (this is important) once you get the hang of 'riverbed' provinces. My grey hat is off to you, Sirs.

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 8

RE: map and stuff - 4/30/2007 11:16:54 PM

Drex

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline

yes, and my blue Kepi.

_____________________________

quote:

Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"

(in reply to MarcusCSA)

Post #: 9

RE: map and stuff - 5/1/2007 2:46:12 AM

General Quarters

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcusCSA

I would just like to add that I agree that the map is really really nice, clear (this is important) once you get the hang of 'riverbed' provinces. My grey hat is off to you, Sirs.

The river provinces puzzled the heck out of me at the beginning. I couldn't find Richmond, and I had never heard of the Neuse and one of the others (where Columbia Ga is). But now I think river provinces were one of the really smart design moves they made. They allow quick movement along the rivers and let riverines join in attacks on key cities, for openers.

(in reply to MarcusCSA)

Post #: 10

RE: map and stuff - 5/1/2007 1:19:32 PM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

yes, I agree it was confusing for me as well.
Christian

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 11

RE: map and stuff - 5/1/2007 7:48:43 PM

Gil R.

Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

Can anything be done to make river provinces less confusing? Obviously, the map itself can't be changed. But is there something else?

(in reply to cesteman)

Post #: 12

RE: map and stuff - 5/1/2007 8:19:19 PM

Gray_Lensman

Posts: 640
Joined: 4/10/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Can anything be done to make river provinces less confusing? Obviously, the map itself can't be changed. But is there something else?

Possibly you could add into the pop up mouse box (rollover box), some sort of notation that the province contains "city name", just don't hold up the "beta" patch please...

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 13

RE: map and stuff - 5/1/2007 8:32:48 PM

Gil R.

Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

You know, that's not a bad idea, since several people have been mystified about where Richmond was, or another city.

(in reply to Gray_Lensman)

Post #: 14

RE: map and stuff - 5/1/2007 8:42:17 PM

General Quarters

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline

Yes, I always think of those river segments in terms of the city -- Richmond, Raleigh, Savannah, etc., not the river -- and have wished those segments were named after the city. A popup box would be a good way to do it.

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 15

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 3:01:00 AM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

I agree. Good idea!
Christian

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 16

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 3:14:59 AM

Sonny II

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline

One of the confusing things is that the river areas are small and long. You can't tell if your troops are in one area or another. This is especially true in the Tennessee/Mississippi area. when you move a unit and point to one of these areas the unit does not always move where the arrow is pointing. this makes you wonder if you clicked the correct area or not. And of course with the areas being long and narrow some troops are way up top and some arre at the bottom. It is just confusing.

Sorry I don't have a suggestion for improvement other than making the rivers wider which is not possible.

(in reply to cesteman)

Post #: 17

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 3:20:31 AM

Gil R.

Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

I agree that it's confusing, but there really isn't a better way this can be handled. We do have the pop-up that tells you which province a unit is in when you mouse over it. So if you mistakenly send it to the wrong place, you can easily undo the move.

(in reply to Sonny II)

Post #: 18

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 8:40:34 AM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I agree that it's confusing, but there really isn't a better way this can be handled. We do have the pop-up that tells you which province a unit is in when you mouse over it. So if you mistakenly send it to the wrong place, you can easily undo the move.

OK Gil, now you've brought up something that I don't know how to do. How do you undo a move, say of infantry? Thanks.
Christian

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 19

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 8:56:50 AM

Gil R.

Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

Undoing moves is done with the backspace key, which undoes the most recent things you've done, in order.

(in reply to cesteman)

Post #: 20

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 9:33:48 AM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Undoing moves is done with the backspace key, which undoes the most recent things you've done, in order.

So, are you saying that I can undo all my moves for a turn?

Also, wanted to know what I'm doing wrong trying to join up a CSA corps unit in VA. The Corps is in LA and I move the unit by rail to VA and then move to divisions that I want into that Corps along with a general of the correct rank. On the next turn, the Corps and Divisions are back where they started (I did the same thing for three turns). What am I doing wrong? Thanks.
Christian

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 21

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 10:25:58 AM

Sonny II

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cesteman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Undoing moves is done with the backspace key, which undoes the most recent things you've done, in order.

So, are you saying that I can undo all my moves for a turn?

Also, wanted to know what I'm doing wrong trying to join up a CSA corps unit in VA. The Corps is in LA and I move the unit by rail to VA and then move to divisions that I want into that Corps along with a general of the correct rank. On the next turn, the Corps and Divisions are back where they started (I did the same thing for three turns). What am I doing wrong? Thanks.
Christian

Is it winter? Units have more of a chance to not move in winter. Also some generals are rather sluggish at moving.

(in reply to cesteman)

Post #: 22

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 10:28:35 AM

Sonny II

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I agree that it's confusing, but there really isn't a better way this can be handled. We do have the pop-up that tells you which province a unit is in when you mouse over it. So if you mistakenly send it to the wrong place, you can easily undo the move.

I know but it is still a hassle.

Next game don't make areas so small and make the troops all go close to the same spot within the area.

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 23

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 7:18:55 PM

Gray_Lensman

Posts: 640
Joined: 4/10/2003
Status: offline

Hey Gil,

Along with the Mouse Rollover idea on the Strategic Map for rivers (cities) add to that a Mouse rollover on the detailed hex map that tells the terrain where the mouse pointer is at.

(in reply to Sonny II)

Post #: 24

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 7:24:37 PM

dude

Posts: 399
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: Fairfax Virginia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray_Lensman

Hey Gil,

Along with the Mouse Rollover idea on the Strategic Map for rivers (cities)� add to that a Mouse rollover on the detailed hex map that tells the terrain where the mouse pointer is at.

Yes I second that ... too many times I wonder what terrain my unit is in ... not quit sure sometimes.

Dude

_____________________________

�Ifs defeated the Confederates�� U.S.Grant

(in reply to Gray_Lensman)

Post #: 25

RE: map and stuff - 5/2/2007 7:57:25 PM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

quote:

Is it winter? Units have more of a chance to not move in winter. Also some generals are rather sluggish at moving.

No it's March and they always start in the same place when I move them. Next game, I think I'll try to move at least one unit near before joining them up. One place I didn't want to do this was AK. The one sole division there is all that stands between the USA and Little Rock so I didn't want them off joining up just to have the city lost.
Christian

(in reply to Sonny II)

Post #: 26

RE: map and stuff - 5/3/2007 12:41:20 PM

Sonny II

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray_Lensman

Hey Gil,

Along with the Mouse Rollover idea on the Strategic Map for rivers (cities) add to that a Mouse rollover on the detailed hex map that tells the terrain where the mouse pointer is at.

Heck no! I don't want a rollover all the time my cursor is on the hex map. What a pain that would be.

(in reply to Gray_Lensman)

Post #: 27

RE: map and stuff - 5/3/2007 6:23:05 PM

Gil R.

Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

I'm pleased to report that because of your suggestions on this thread (not to mention previous comments) Eric for this latest in-house build has added cities to the mouse-over pop-ups on the strategic map. So now, for example, when you put the mouse over James River it also says that Richmond's there. I tested it last night, so it's definitely there and working perfectly. I think this solves one of the bigger UI issues that was vexing people.

As for HW terrain, on p. 116 of the manual there's a chart that identifies the different terrain types.

(in reply to Sonny II)

Post #: 28

RE: map and stuff - 5/3/2007 8:42:10 PM

cesteman

Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline

Patch me please

(in reply to Gil R.)

Post #: 29

RE: map and stuff - 5/3/2007 11:11:14 PM

Gray_Lensman

Posts: 640
Joined: 4/10/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I'm pleased to report that because of your suggestions on this thread (not to mention previous comments) Eric for this latest in-house build has added cities to the mouse-over pop-ups on the strategic map. So now, for example, when you put the mouse over James River it also says that Richmond's there. I tested it last night, so it's definitely there and working perfectly. I think this solves one of the bigger UI issues that was vexing people.

As for HW terrain, on p. 116 of the manual there's a chart that identifies the different terrain types.

Nice to hear the strategic map mouseover... However, due to different printer characteristics vs. the actual screen appearance, the HW mouseover would still be a big help, but don't hold up the beta patch. We're dying here...