Walloc
Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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ORIGINAL: Blackadar1
After having quite a bit of difficulty getting FOF to work, I’ve managed to get it operational and played my first game. I lost. Well, let’s just say I can’t win. I’ve won virtually every battle fought; yet I’ve lost the war. But I’m not sure if that’s due entirely to my own lack of skill or problems in the game itself.
Here’s my situation. I’m playing as union. The year is 1865. I’ve had very few defeats and a lot of victories. Yet I’m entirely stuck. The Confederacy “get out of jail free” clock is ticking and they’re picking up victory points every turn now. For me, the war is lost. Yet I should have already won...
Let’s start in TN. I’ve decimated the Confederacy here. They had about 50,000 troops at one time and are down to under 20,000. They’re so weak that I just created forts, manned them with a couple of divisions and have marched my army East (more on that later). However, getting them to this state has been an arduous task and this brings me to my first three points/problems/questions.
1. Why do I always lose when I quick sim? And I do mean pretty much always. I once took on 28,000 ragged Confederate troops with a solid Union force of 70,000 and lost. Yet if I actually go in to play the battle and let the computer do everything from the opening turn, I win handily. I want to play this game from a strategic level, not a tactical one. In other words, I don’t want to play the battles. But I lose every single time with an instant sim and win every time when I go into the map and wait 20 minutes for the game to play both sides. Why is this? Is this a bug? This is a huge problem for me right now and is a major disappointment as I don't want to play each battle. I'm the President, not a General!
Hi Rowan Adkinson, ops i mean Blackadder. 
Could u give the VP as of now?
I ask cuz in one sentence u say u won every battle and yet lose every QC(quick combat).
I wondered what ur / CSA National will are.
As to quick combat i when i play the AI most to exclusive play HW(hex wars=detailed battles) but i do got some experience from pbem's that only uses QC.
I dunno what scenario u are playing, but it seems from reading several peoples posts new to the game that they tend to be slow in the beginning of the war as US. Building troops and other stuff. Ur problems in TN leads me to think same is true for u but plz correct me, if im wrong.
QC defense bonus can be huge. Especially if there is forts in the province maybe a city and some terrain bonus. I've seen odds 1 to 3 win those combat easily. As far as i gather it was introduced to make CSA stronger. This primarily affects QC. The bonus isnt there in the same way in HW. To boot which is a problem when trying to take Richmond for example. There is a max of 36 unit/bdes allowed in QC so US cant use their numberical advantage. ill come back to that later and ways to overcome that. That means as much as possible avoid fights in provinces with forts. Try to bypass or lure enemy out of those fort provinces and attack if they move to less defensive provinces. As i read u. You alrdy has a tactic to guard the conquered provinces with self build forts. Garrison it. Have an army rdy if enemy decides to move in there. Tables defense bonus wise is then turned up side down since AI attacking.
Eventually u will find that in some cases u do have to attack fort provinces. If they are surrounded all the better. Again try take the non fort provinces first see if u cant lure the enemy army out of the fort provinces. If u have to attack fort provinces and in case of Richmond. Its importand to remember there is a 36 unit/bde limit, any units above that isnt used so you only attack with 36 unit. Split ur armies up in 36 unit/bde armies so when first has lost, u in next turn can attack with next and so on. This is the only way to attrition an enemy 36+ unit/bde army defending in fort provinces.
When an army loses it loses dispostion that lowers the units ql so have the losing armies rest and regain disposition. Hospitals can help regain disposition faster up too 2 units per hospital so u might need lots where heavy fighting with several armies occure.
Dispostion means looots and i think most players miss that fact. Ql 4 troops might easily after a few lost battles have so low disposition that they in fact only are QL 2 while winning armies disposition and ql go up. Dont attack until most of ur army is normal or higher.
Back to TN. Im still assuming u didnt attack right of the bat. As US u have too, in nov scn use the winter to muster and make the needed containers. Attack right away come first feb turn if u cant move before. If u wait until after april u give the AI twice the chance of mustering. U cant afford that. U need to start attrition right away and u should be able to take TN in 62. Press hard and right away. U start out better than CSA u can muster more u can take more casulties. Waiting only helps CSA.
In july scn id say attack alrdy before winter again make attrition and gain expereince u wont gain much territory tho. Again use winter to build armies so u rdy to strike in at latest feb 62.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1468381
Read that if u uncertain about mustering i think there are a one or 2 more recent threads concerning this.
If u insist on QC and i understand why u do it. Only way to win as US is attrition attrition attrition. Make camp camp camp camp and build troops troops and troops. Muster initially to win. Weapons, generals wont overcome the teh fort defence bonus just how it is.
Personally i think forts are to tough and i see some gamey ways to use them, but its not my call.
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2. If I do go into the battlefield but want the computer to run my forces, why does it constantly suicide charge my Calvary? Calvary is good for flanking maneuvers and for taking down cannons. Yet in every battle, my horses go merrily running across the battlefield to engage infantry divisions well ahead of the rest of my forces. It’s most disconcerting, though my troops are getting used to the taste of Union horseflesh (after picking out the lead shot). It makes a fine stew.
I agree at times AI doenst use horses to the best. "Good news" is when u play HW AI makes same mistakes with their own horsies ;-)
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3. Why don’t armies that decimated give up? From a historical sense, an army that’s been gutted repeatedly ultimately surrenders. It happened in the Civil War numerous times, yet these guys keep fighting and dying without a care. Hell, in my saved game right now, they’re trying to lay siege to Knoxville (turf we’ve fought over about 6 or 8 times) with 18,000 men (against my 9,000 in a fort). This was made all the more annoying since I kept losing quick sim battles here…I must have watched the simulation screen for a good 3 hours seeing my army repeatedly kick the crap out of a beaten army that didn’t know enough to give up.
When an army/container retreats there is a chance units will surrender. It was original 15% per unit not sure if that is still true, Eric would have to answer. I suspect its been tweeked. If u had trown just a divsion into a province u own with a fort they can easily beat those 18k CSA. I suggest if u use an fort conquered provinces to have some troops rdy to kick out any CSA entering ur fort provinces. Should be fairly easy. Just have them behind the front rdy to react into any province CSA decises to attack
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4. Why is it such a pain to get in the perfect spot on the map trying to find a fort, especially those against a river? I ultimately couldn’t take GA because of a fort or two I couldn’t seem to guide my troops to. I tried everything from both sides of the river (AL/GA border and GA/SC border) but these “stealth forts” kept me from taking the entire state. TN was a similar pain in the butt. Is there a hot key that I can use to find the exact pixel that my troops have to move into so I can lay siege to these forts?
Did u enter the river provinces the forts was in? it can be tricky some times to find a free spot in cluttered river provinces. Try either end of the province tho usually works for me.
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As I mentioned before, I abandoned TN and marched east as the only remaining large force is the Confederacy force in VA, numbering about 250,000. We’ve sparred a couple of times and I’ve won 2 out of 3 against them. I’ve brought to bear over 400,000 mostly seasoned Union troops with improved weaponry, yet these Rebels are invincible.
QC? again see above about 36 unit limit. Dont attack with more than that in QC. Rather make succesive attacks with alternating 36 unit armies turn after turn.
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5. How do armies get out of supply? I took my TN army East right across my home state of North Carolina. I’ve effectively cut off the VA troops from any supplies, reinforcements or hope of rescue. I’ve blockaded them in Norfolk as well. I figured that this would force the Rebels to either attempt a breakout or to slowly starve. Yet neither has happened, which is very discouraging. Is this because I don’t have the advanced/extended supply rule on? Or is this a major oversight?
Well there arent supply routes per say in game. Supply is calculated per the province, whether there is a RR and so. Only way to make them effective go out of supply is conquere so much territory / cities their national income is to low for them to give any real supply prioverty. But then if army doesnt move it only uses supply in battles again succsive attacks over many turns is the approche.
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6. How do you beat the Rebel supertroops? The Rebels must have gone through a Harry Turtledove time machine and gotten some modern weapons, because despite being cut off, vastly outnumbered and facing a well-equipped Union force (Springfields or better for everyone), they cut me to pieces. This is the one battle it doesn’t seem to matter if I instant sim or not as the Rebs are laying massive casualties against my hugely superior force. I’ve managed to isolate two armies and attacked them with 5 of my own – 420,000 vs. 175,000 – and got the living crap beat out of me. I’ve lost over 1,000 Union soldiers from one Rebel attack in one turn. I’ve not seen anything like it up until now, so what gives?
Again u prolly run into the 36 unit limit so the 3-1 odds isnt there in the combat. Revert to succesive attacks with max 36 unit armies.
Again i assume its QC so look at those advice. Again ill say in my own experience, Fort bonus/defense bonus out weights weapons by far. I've had spencer equiped units attack a fort province and haivng odds 2 to 1 not reaching the 36 unit limit. Had 3 to 1 in art and still lost in 80% of the cases. Try lure them out of fort provinces. If its not feasible only way is attrition.
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Now even this might be ok because I can afford 2-for-1 casualties anyway. But the Rebs get a massive boost in the victory conditions – a swing of 12 points – for a narrow victory. That’s about everything I’ve gotten combined for wiping out three entire Rebel armies out West.
Yes they do why i asked about the NW will. I wonder since u said u won most of the combats. Only good thing is that 12 neg NW wont make u lose in it self tho it is negative VP. Again the faster u get of the bat and attack the sooner the less CSA armies u will see over time. What ever u do, dont give them time.
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7. What caused the points to swing so much here versus everywhere else? As I mentioned, the Rebs are getting a huge amount of points even when I've played that battle and gotten the casualty figures to be close. Grant didn't win every battle. He recognized he had a huge troop advantage and kept engaging the Army of VA. I was going to do the same thing here, but the game won't let me.
well rules are that if u lose a decisive battles. 40k+ troops on both sides and 10k+ casulties u lose NW. Using the attrition tactic not much u can do about it. Other than either attack with max 36 unit army, cuz of the limit or attack with max 39,5k men. That way it cant be a decisive battle and u dont lose NW. Yes gamey but hey some times u gota do what u gota do.
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8. How can the Union win if all the Rebs have to do is sit tight, mass their troops around Richmond without regard to the rest of the battlefield? In the real world, if the Union had stormed through GA, taken most it as well as NC and Arkansas, captured all of TN and cut off all supply to VA, the battle is pretty much won. Yet here I am in a game I can’t win with those exact conditions. Is the balance in the game so poor that the Union side is virtually unwinnable? It was a concern of mine when I read all the AARs as the Rebels won every one of them. It almost stopped me from buying the game altogether.
U can trick is not to engage the Richmond army. All u do is lose battle and lose NW. Win the win in the West / south. There are enough VP there to win the game if u dont lose alot of points on NW in pointless attacks on ANV.
Doesnt that go against my advice of attrition and attrition. Sorta yes. But make the attrition out west, why i suggest attacking out there in TN/AR asap.
KY is a but tricky i usually wait for it to pick sides since most of the time it goes US. Entering troops might make it CSA.
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9. Why is the AI clairvoyant? Having replayed some of these battles to confirm problems with the instant sim engine, the supertroop issue and so forth, I've noticed that the AI knows exactly what I'm going to do each turn. Remember, the AI has three armies (about 220,000 total troops) in VA and they're guarding two seperate territories. Yet if I engage his stack of two armies with my 5 armies, his 3rd army comes to the rescue. Is this cheating or is this some sort of feature? Were the Rebels blessed with Fortune Tellers? Because I've never gotten wind of a Rebel attack, yet these guys know what I'm going to do before my turn ends.
No the, rule is if an army/container is adjecting to an container that is being attacking it migth get reinforced by the adjecting container. max 36 unit limit still apply. Way to avoid reinforcements is to make suck off attacks on the reinforcing container. If its attacked it might stay in place and fight that battle. Any how not counting NW lost due to lost decisive battles u would be better of making more attacks with several stacks over several provinces that 1 big battle cuz of max 36 unit limit. More battles = more attrition.
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I don’t like to lose anyway. But losing like this – with a huge setup advantage and after many hours of gamplay - is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. If I really thought this is the way the game worked, I’d start charge-back procedures on my credit card because this would be a rip-off. But I’ve read enough on this board to think that most or all of this is due to my lack of knowledge or perhaps the options I started the game with. So your help is appreciated as I want to like this game. But as it is, I'm feeling a bit discouraged and regretting my buying decision right now. What happened here?
Well Blackadder playing QC u have to know the play the system more than the game some times IMO. Naturally after 1 game u dont know all the quirks.
Playing FoF only QC is different than play HW for sure. As said i understand why u do it, but one has to adapt u playing style to it and know stuff like 36 unit limit.
With the possibilty of making u puke more. I can blind folded, Gil pestering me with PMs, beat the crap out of the CSA AI winning in late 62 or early 63 playing as US and HWs. QC takes a bit longer but its certainly doable in 63/64. I can assure u rebel troops arent super humans, but if playing QC i'd try some of the tips i've given and give it some more time to learn the system.
There are alot of hidden factors to combat ql, like disposition, Quality of containers all that can be read about in the manual.
Disclaimer, this is purely gaming tactics as i see them to optimize against the system of QC as i see it currently. Not questioning the historic's.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
< Message edited by Walloc -- 6/11/2007 8:35:05 AM >
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After my first game - many concerns about FOF - 
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