Strategies in the Lineup

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Strategies in the Lineup - 6/11/2007 5:01:55 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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I'm curious to know what other people do in this situation...

Typically, when you have two power-hitters, they go in the [3] slot and in the clean-up slot [4]. If a team has 3 power-hitters, where does the third guy go? In the #5 slot, or in the #2 slot?

I'm sure there may not be a right or wrong answer to this, but I would still be interested in the strategy-minded opinions of my fellow Puresimmians.

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Post #: 1

RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/11/2007 6:37:59 PM

KG Erwin

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The number 5 spot.

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/11/2007 9:11:15 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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See, that's where I have him...

It's just odd to see the guy leading your team in home runs (39) and RBI (110) hitting in the #5 spot. Granted, he's only got about 7 HRs more than my #4 slot (who has 32), but #5's average is about 20 points lower. My #3 guy tops them all in average, but has only hit 31 HRs himself. I'll get a screenshot of their stats tonight, if possible.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/12/2007 12:57:07 AM

dneely

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Based on the stats you mentioned I would say you have the 3 guys in the right spots in the batting order!

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/12/2007 3:23:56 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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So riddle me this, and my question comes merely from a curiosity standpoint, what is the difference between placing a power-hitter like that guy in the #5 slot vs. the #2 slot? I know the #1 typically takes your best contact hitter/speedster, but I've seen that many clubs aren't going with the 1-2 speedster combo.

Thoughts, anyone?

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/12/2007 6:01:47 PM

ezpkns34

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there was an article I saw some time ago, I apologize for not remembering who wrote or where it was, but it stated that your typical speedster guy would be better used in front of singles hitters, as in around the 6 spot in a lineup (but this was only for someone who was a decent hitter with speed, like a juan pierre, not a jose reyes who can hit quite well and pop a few hrs as well)

this article also stated, however, that it figured the ideal top 5 in a lineup would be the top 5 in obp on your team, with the top ops going at 4, and next top 2 in oba at 1 & 2 (with the more powerful hitter going 2) and the next best oba at 5 and last guy at 3. the reasoning for this being obvious for the 1 & 2 spots, as you want these guys to get on base as much as possible

it reasoned, however, that the 3 hitter had the highest likelihood of stepping to the plate with bases empty and 2 outs as anyone else in the lineup (though not sure if they factored in their version of the lineup with the 2 high oba guys in front of the 3 guy). in a bit of circular logic, however, they decided the best place for you best overall hitter was the 4 spot (even though from their stats, it would appear he leads off an inning to much).

just figured i would spread this info to see if it helped you guys, made you laugh, or got you interested in playing around with the ideas

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/12/2007 6:21:07 PM

KG Erwin

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An article on batting orders can be found here: http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~raj/writing/BattingOrder.html

When I get home from the office, I'll display my batting order (and the logic behind it , which of course could be flawed).

Here's my 1947 Pirates Lineup vs RHP:

Superficially, it appears that the heart of the lineup is in the 3 thru 7 spots, with the actual "table-setters" being Furillo & Ennis. Actually, Kell has been effective at getting extra-base hits, and Schoendienst has the capability for advancing the runner, or reaching and stealing second. Musial is turning into a singles hitter, while Snider has a nasty tendency to strike out.

So, what I'm doing is essentially pairing up a good runner with a good hitter following, and spacing them throughout the lineup. This basically forces the opposing pitcher to not "pitch around" anyone. Whaddaya think?

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< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 6/13/2007 12:30:50 AM >

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 2:36:00 AM

KG Erwin

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For Frozen Stiffer, I'll bump this one. So, what do you think of my batting order?

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 3:52:23 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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It looks effective, there's no doubt, but I must ask... the #2 hitter. I'm almost inclined to ask what he's doing there. He's got the 2nd lowest average of your entire lineup, yet he's hitting way up there. Does he have a really good EYE rating and gets walked alot (so that the 3-4-5 guys drive him in with RBIs)?

< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 6/14/2007 4:00:09 AM >

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"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 4:00:25 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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Below is the lineup for my Havana Galleons:

1- Carter's power is above his norm, but with an 82 speed, he's the fastest on our team and a natural for the lead-off slot; otherwise, I would have put him in somewhere in Longball Alley (the 3-4-5 slot).

2- Forrest is a 3rd year player that's having his best year so far. His HR totals are at their highest, and though his average is 17 points under his best, his decent speed (57) and good overall hitting solidify this slot.

3- As our franchise player, London hits everything... and hits it hard. His higher average is what keeps him in the #3 slot, even though Queiroga (see #5) has more dingers.

4- McMillan has great contact and great power, but even more so... LUCK. He gets the big hits when we need them the most; this is why his AVG and HR numbers are lower than the #5 slot, but he remains in the #4.

5- Queiroga has shown to have the greatest power, but he's also susceptible to prolonged slumps. It's for this reason I don't want to balance the entire offense on him.

6 + 7- Haag and Najera are relatively interchangeable. Najera's average is high now, but that's only due to a recent hot-streak. Haag's average has been higher than his for most of the year; it's that difference in hitting that has determined their respective places.

8 - Chan was signed on as a reserve catcher, but after highly successful pinch-hit appearances, was tested in the DH-spot for the long term and has done well.

9 - The Yerger/Sarabia platoon exists only because of attachment. Yerger has been with the club for 6 years now, so I feel a sort of 'obligation' to his loyalty and performance record; it's a sentimental thing. Though his numbers slowly drop as the years pass, he's one of my personal favorites. Sarabia however is the up-and-coming 2B that will eventually replace Yerger full time. However, though I know that keeping the position platooned may hurt the kid's growth, I care about Yerger too much to see him sit on the bench for days at end.

Your thoughts?

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< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 6/14/2007 4:05:45 AM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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Post #: 10

RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 4:11:49 AM

KG Erwin

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Dang, FS, I'm wondering what kind of ballparks you're playing in, what with those HR totals. The environment is a vital part of it. I play home games in a pitcher-friendly park, so not many HRs. However, the depth of the outfield will still allow many doubles, and a few triples.

The old "classic" ballparks were quirky, to say the least. Now, I gotta say that today's newer parks seek to gain a balance, which is good, but there will always be exceptions.

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 4:16:07 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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Well, there I must confess- I'm playing with stock parks. Obviously, it's a fictional association, so I never took the time to alter the parks and/or make them unique-- other than renaming an occasional few.

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"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 6:37:07 PM

slider15

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Here is my strategy for the lineup. your lead off guy should have a high obp. High avg doesn't matter as long as he gets a lot of walks. Number 2 should be able to drive the ball, looking for singles and doubles, generally a .290 hitter. Number 3 you want some pop but more importantly avg. someone who hits .300 or above. I put my most balanced power hitter 4 as hopefully you have bases loaded or 2 on. Number 4 you want power but you want someone who consistently hits the ball well. Classically speaking number 5 is your power hitter with a lower batting avg. Not quite as consistent as number 4 but a threat to protect your number 4. Generally the old school thought process was that 6th was the best hitter you have left. now 7 and 8 there are a lot of different theories, but basically I put my best obp player left in the 8 spot because I don't want him to make the last out and have the pitcher lead off. So you definately do not want someone who strikes out a lot. A guy with a low avg but a lot of BB works well here. This is just my opinion and my strategy but it has worked well for me. My leadoff guy I also look for speed as well. So my number 1 gets on, 2 moves him to 2nd, 3 gets a single, 4 drives in a couple, if he doesn't you have the chance with 5 and depending on your players with 6 also. 7 just seems to be there in my lineup with no real expectations of anything and 8 i like to see not make the 3rd out. But that is how I look at it. Hope it helps

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 8:20:22 PM

Bustoff

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Bobby Bragan wrote an article for True Magazine back in 1957 titled "What Percentage Percentage?" Fascinating stuff. One thing he talks about is lineup strategy. Statistically over a season, your leadoff hitter will bat more times than anyone else in the lineup, so he says your best hitter needs to be #1 in the order...followed by your next best and moving logically down the line by batting average, or probably more realistically by OBP. This concept flew in the face of Conventional Wisdom back then, which was to pack the middle of the order with your best hitters. He even analyzes in which innings the greatest number of runs are scored. Surprisingly--or maybe not--it's the first inning (at least it was back in '57).

Wow, that would be a great idea for an add-in...total runs scored and total runs against by inning.

This article was reprinted in The Second Fireside Book of Baseball, published in '58. It's probably the oldest book I own, and one of my favorite reads.

< Message edited by Bustoff -- 6/14/2007 8:32:57 PM >

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 8:32:27 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bustoff

Wow, that would be a great idea for an add-in...total runs scored and total runs against by inning.

You're right Bustoff, this would be a great add-on! You should suggest it to CrashDavis, he's a wizard at creating add-ons.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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Post #: 15

RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 9:30:53 PM

Bustoff

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Done. I get about one good idea a year...I guess it's all downhill now until '08.

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"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." -- Satchel Paige

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 10:13:49 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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Then again, Bust... is it a calendar year or a rolling 12-month period?

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"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 10:22:20 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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Following KG's suggestion (and with his help), I implemented the appropriate stadiums for my 1997 replay association. However... how does one balance things in a fictional association where there are no real stadiums to implement?

Do I make things up? Do I use the "real team" stadiums of the nearest real team? (i.e. Use Dolphin Stadium for my Havana Galleons?)

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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Post #: 18

RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/14/2007 11:35:07 PM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frozen Stiffer

Following KG's suggestion (and with his help), I implemented the appropriate stadiums for my 1997 replay association. However... how does one balance things in a fictional association where there are no real stadiums to implement?

Do I make things up? Do I use the "real team" stadiums of the nearest real team? (i.e. Use Dolphin Stadium for my Havana Galleons?)

If I went fictional, then I'd go with the closest geographical park. However, there's a broad selection of historical parks available, so let your imagination and your conscience (whatever feels right to you) be your guide.

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/15/2007 12:56:38 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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wow...

That's a very 'Zen' response....

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"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

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Post #: 20

RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/19/2007 3:14:52 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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KG,

I took your advice, but I didn't apply it to my fictional association-- instead, I applied it to my Replay_1997 association where I'm managing the Marlins (hopefully, to the World Series). Five games into the replay, I assigned all of the parks for all of the teams as you suggested. This is what my lineup looks like now, and it looks "realistic" if you ask me. We're 60-games in and in first place by 2 games. The only slight deviation is that Sheffield has 20 home runs already and Devon White has 9 (compared to their all-of-'97 totals of 21 and 6, respectively). This is what we look like:

It's amazing what a difference the real parks make!

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< Message edited by Frozen Stiffer -- 6/19/2007 3:18:42 AM >

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

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RE: Strategies in the Lineup - 6/22/2007 4:37:37 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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After reading an article KG sent me as well as a few other things I found, I decided to keep my regular lineup vs. Righties, but align the batters according to their OBP vs. Lefties (no reason for choosing pitcher throwing arms, it was just a way to have a 'quick' alternate setup). I just played my first game against a lefty pitcher and I must say.... WOW!

It could have just been a coincedence, but the team really gelled; the people who got on base easily did so, and those who hit well, hit... well.... well! Lots of RBIs and some very good offensive numbers. I'll see the next time we face a lefty-- if the results mirror those of this last game, I'm changing my entire lineup vs. Righty & Lefty pitching! If it doesn't work, then I'll just put a notch in the "offensive fluke" column and go about my business.