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Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/12/2007 11:17:20 PM   
KDonovan


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Status: offline 		can Patrol Planes be used to deliver Para-troops against an enemy hex?....I'm finding myself short on Transport planes

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/12/2007 11:21:01 PM   
Nikademus


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/12/2007 11:32:59 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

don't think so.


They can.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/12/2007 11:36:14 PM   
KDonovan


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quote:

They can.


sweet....!

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/12/2007 11:48:57 PM   
Nikademus


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 12:30:00 AM   
dtravel


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 1:00:59 AM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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Status: offline 		With WITP logic, they may drop paratroops but only on coastal hexes....

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 1:35:16 AM   
Mynok


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I'm sure they'll drop them on atolls too.....

"Oops!"
"Dang it, Shep, another platoon in the lagoon......."


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 2:44:05 AM   
stldiver


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Status: offline 		Yes, they drop them wherever there is water nearby and they can land. I have been resistant to changing my PBY Catalinas to PBY Mariners
just from the ability of the Catalinas to transport more of these, but I am learning that extra search distance of the Mariner is worth it.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 4:23:29 AM   
Mynok


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Their primary mission is search, so that seems wise. Allies have plenty of cargo aircraft.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 12:59:31 PM   
mc3744


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Status: offline 		There's one nice advantage using FPs for paradrops.

They can also pick up the paratroopers from coastal bases with airfield size 0

It's quite useful when you are mopping up an area. I avoid splitting the unit on different bases 'cause I feel it'd be gamey. But that's just me.

I drop, capture, re-form, re-drop.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 1:59:37 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

There's one nice advantage using FPs for paradrops.

They can also pick up the paratroopers from coastal bases with airfield size 0

It's quite useful when you are mopping up an area. I avoid splitting the unit on different bases 'cause I feel it'd be gamey. But that's just me.

I drop, capture, re-form, re-drop.


Hmm,

I could use the 2nd Marine Para to retake the Solomons that way...

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 2:32:29 PM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		I'm glad they fixed that "bug"!
I moved an entire Para Bde once by airlift and when the unit was approx 90% moved, the entire unit vanished!

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 4:26:30 PM   
mc3744


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Status: offline 		In the Pacific Coronado's work best.

Obviously the best ones are the Emily's, but if you get close enough (12) Cronado's can get the job done.
One turn to capture, one (or two) to recover the dropped troops and then onto the next.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 4:52:38 PM   
niceguy2005


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Status: offline 		Raider battalions via sub transport or fast transport will work just about as well. I like to keep all my search planes on Nav Search at all times.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 4:59:56 PM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Raider battalions via sub transport or fast transport will work just about as well. I like to keep all my search planes on Nav Search at all times.


I don't entirely agree.
They would work as well if there weren't mines.

My Jap opponents tend to like mines ... A LOT
Paratroopers can avoid that nasty inconvenience. Fast transports cannot.

Yes, you can use DMS, but there are few and I prefer to keep them within bombardment TF or to escort big amphibious invasions.

Just my two cents.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:06:07 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Raider battalions via sub transport or fast transport will work just about as well. I like to keep all my search planes on Nav Search at all times.


I don't entirely agree.
They would work as well if there weren't mines.

My Jap opponents tend to like mines ... A LOT
Paratroopers can avoid that nasty inconvenience. Fast transports cannot.

Yes, you can use DMS, but there are few and I prefer to keep them within bombardment TF or to escort big amphibious invasions.

Just my two cents.

I agree, if you suspect a moderate of high concentration of mines there is no sense in sending troops into harms way. YOu could still use sub transport relatively well, but it is a slow method compared to air drop.

One thing I have been contemplating is just how many troops should it take to capture an undefended base? Technically the answer is 1 squad, but that seems gamey. I'm thinking more along the lines of at least 1 company to scout and secure a base. Does anyone know of real life examples? How few troops would be used to secure an assumed, but not confirmed non-hostile area?

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:12:52 PM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

One thing I have been contemplating is just how many troops should it take to capture an undefended base? Technically the answer is 1 squad, but that seems gamey. I'm thinking more along the lines of at least 1 company to scout and secure a base. Does anyone know of real life examples? How few troops would be used to secure an assumed, but not confirmed non-hostile area?



8 Catalina's will get the job done, if the squads you paradrop are "repaired".

I don't find it more gamey than leaving a base ungarrisoned.
AFAIK IRL bases always had a garrison, maybe small, but still ...

I'm not complaining because the game doesn't force us to garrison, but since we can choose to leave a base undefended, our opponent can capture it very easily, as it should be.

How hard is it to plant your flags with no enemy presence? [;)


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:27:41 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

One thing I have been contemplating is just how many troops should it take to capture an undefended base? Technically the answer is 1 squad, but that seems gamey. I'm thinking more along the lines of at least 1 company to scout and secure a base. Does anyone know of real life examples? How few troops would be used to secure an assumed, but not confirmed non-hostile area?



8 Catalina's will get the job done, if the squads you paradrop are "repaired".

I don't find it more gamey than leaving a base ungarrisoned.
AFAIK IRL bases always had a garrison, maybe small, but still ...

I'm not complaining because the game doesn't force us to garrison, but since we can choose to leave a base undefended, our opponent can capture it very easily, as it should be.

How hard is it to plant your flags with no enemy presence? [;)


That comment was not designed to accuse you of being gamey. I agree that the game does not represent garrisons. Personally, I'm thankful for that as there is already enough to manage.

It is oft joked that "two guys and a row boat" can take a base. This is true, but if it were a real life simualtion (which witp is not) you would send at least several squads.

I look at the control of unoccupied bases as representing a shere of influence. In real life in the Solomons there are many tiny islands. A base would be established at one island and patrols sent out to recon all assumed unoccupied areas of concern. The size and composition of the patrol would reflect the level of uncertainty about the presence of the enemy. Thus, if you were moving into an area that previously was under enemy occupation, or within their sphere of influence, you would send a sizeable patrol. As you established yourself in that area and mapped it you would gradually reduce the size of the patrol until you might well just be sending out a couple of squads to recon an island.

Again, in real life I couldn't see landing on an "enemy island" with anything less than a company if the goal was to establish a permanent presense (capture the base). A couple of platoons would be too vulnerable...but that's just my opinion.

I would still be interested in real life examples if anyone knows of some.


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:28:23 PM   
herwin

 

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Status: offline 		Troops to capture an undefended base--at least a half battalion (2 companies). I couldn't find any cases of a single company (a single APD load) being used, although that might have been enough if there was no chance of a garrison being present.



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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:39:51 PM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

That comment was not designed to accuse you of being gamey. I agree that the game does not represent garrisons. Personally, I'm thankful for that as there is already enough to manage.

Again, in real life I couldn't see landing on an "enemy island" with anything less than a company if the goal was to establish a permanent presense (capture the base). A couple of platoons would be too vulnerable...but that's just my opinion.



No "accuse" taken

I entirely agree with you on what would happen IRL and I'm happy too that this part is out of the simulation

IRL small garrisons were everywhere. If fact they kept finding Jap soldiers on forgotten islands that nobody cared for
IRL you would only "waste" troops to capture and secure relevant areas, not the entire surface of an island: airstrips, harbors, hills, towns, ...

Also IRL Allied usually had coastwatchers on the islands and had intel long before on the estimated enemy presence on not-Japanese islands.

One way to simulate this easily enough would be to set an AP level below which a base cannot change hand.

We could avoid the pain of garrisoning, but we'd still need to transport or paradrop a reasonable amount of troops.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:51:06 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		lol...reminds me of the time i lost Bangkok to a small sub-transported fragment of less than 100 men.



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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:54:38 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lol...reminds me of the time i lost Bangkok to a small sub-transported fragment of less than 100 men.



Yes, but I bet they had a Shermin with them...that would have made all the difference.

Edit: didn't you once lose Melbourne or something that way also, or am I thinking of someone else?

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 6/13/2007 5:56:51 PM >

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:55:32 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Troops to capture an undefended base--at least a half battalion (2 companies). I couldn't find any cases of a single company (a single APD load) being used, although that might have been enough if there was no chance of a garrison being present.



This doesn't surprise me. As I started thinking about it, 1 company just wouldn't do the job.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 5:55:50 PM   
Nikademus


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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 6:02:19 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744
One way to simulate this easily enough would be to set an AP level below which a base cannot change hand.

We could avoid the pain of garrisoning, but we'd still need to transport or paradrop a reasonable amount of troops.

I was thinking something similar. Given the complexity of the game, I can see why the developers may have chosen not to do this. To implement correctly would take a lot of thought and testing. However, it would really do a much better job of simulating the ground conrtol problems inherent with the pacific war.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 6:38:01 PM   
String


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Status: offline 		I've been dropping a platoon or two on average on emty bases in my game with herwin. I think of them as flag planters and intelligence gatherers, meaning that if an enemy unit lands they will report it over the radio (i get a battlereport).

Besides that they serve no real military purpose.

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 7:18:18 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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Status: offline 		You can find on the net a description of a Japanse campaign in sumemr 1942 to clear the last Dutch outposts around the Banda Sea. Most of these places were "held" by a platoon of Dutch pilot and were inavded by company-sized forces. Not all of them are represented in the game but some are... as dots.

I fully agree with the idea of a number of AP (or squads) to take an "empty" base. I can't see how a handful of Marines may take a Japanese base, or how some hundred of Japanese paras could occupy a town inhabited by several millions of Chinese, and so on.

By the way my own idea is that a base should be occupied by a set number of squads (civilians won't do much difference between trained infantry and support troops) or it will revert to its home nationality that will either be pro-Allied, pro-Japanese or neutral. Such a base will produce only if is occupied by enough troops, or is occupied by troops of the good side (a pro-Allied base occupied by Allied troops).

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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 9:00:00 PM   
Dino


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744
One way to simulate this easily enough would be to set an AP level below which a base cannot change hand.

We could avoid the pain of garrisoning, but we'd still need to transport or paradrop a reasonable amount of troops.

I was thinking something similar. Given the complexity of the game, I can see why the developers may have chosen not to do this. To implement correctly would take a lot of thought and testing. However, it would really do a much better job of simulating the ground conrtol problems inherent with the pacific war.


It seems to me that tying the needed APs to base size (AF+port) should be a fair enough approximation.

As a followup (and somewhat related) question:

How many air-transport load points are needed to transport a full US Para Bn in one run?




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RE: Para Troopers and Patrol Planes - 6/13/2007 9:33:05 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

As a followup (and somewhat related) question:

How many air-transport load points are needed to transport a full US Para Bn in one run?



You can't count that way... 30 transport aircraft with a capacity of 20 will have a total capacity of 600 but may only carry 30 squads of size 15.
If you have one transport AC per squad you should drop everybody on the target

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