OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!!

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OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 1/6/2007 5:48:50 AM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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While we wait for CaW to be released, a little conversation fodder...

My vote is for SPI's Fast Carriers. While it fell partial victim to the publisher's production values, the game DID take a stab at simulating the different facets of carrier fighting, both operational and tactical. In that sense, there's really not a whole lot of competition.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

BTW: I believe that Lou Zocchi once quipped that the game was BADLY misnamed, given the convoluted nature of the rules and their effect on gameplay.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 1/9/2007 5:42:43 PM

Rebel Yell

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Just for the sake argument, I'll toss in Yaquinto/Avalon Hill's Flattop. It was the first game I ever played by mail. Games took over a year, but it was great to get a turn and disappear from the family for a day or two to plot!

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 1/9/2007 5:56:15 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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I first purchased Flattop from Yaquinto. I really wanted to like it. The game had a really strong operational air component. My problem with it was that combat was so utterly sterile. You added up a bunch of numbers, indexed them on the chart(s) and rolled some dice. I wanted more. I wanted Devastators getting shot to hell, while the Dauntlesses swooped in from above. In short, I think that air and naval combat was so abstracted as to be (almost) meaningless. As a friend once told me, "those could be triremes out there, shooting ballistas at one another."

I realize that my comments will likely place me at odds with the majority of wargamers who played and enjoyed Flattop. Like I said, I just wanted more from the game on the tactical side.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 1/9/2007 11:03:59 PM

Joisey

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Flat Top would get my vote.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 1/19/2007 12:35:23 AM

Marc gto

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I HAD FLAT TOP AND YAQUNINTO MIDWAY AND BOTH WER EPRETTY MUCH THE SAME..I LOVED THE GAME..ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAD A 3RD PARTY MONITER THE SEARCHES

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 1/19/2007 1:08:23 AM

ezzler

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battle for midway , decision in the pacific 1942
Hide under the clouds and sail in the squalls..
Fond memories...

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 2/6/2007 11:57:46 PM

Airborne82nd

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Fast Carriers was my first (of many) SPI games I bought in the 70's. Last year, I bought (finally) Carrier by Victory Games. This would get my vote --since I mostly play solitaire.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 2/7/2007 10:13:06 AM

Reg

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Yaquinto?? Avalon Hill?? Wasn't Flattop a Battleline game like those other classics, Air Force and Dauntless.

Or am I just showing my age???

Seriously though it was a great game, though I always found it hard to find an opponent with the commitment to play a game like this (Risk was more their style...)

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 2/7/2007 4:35:56 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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Okay, I was partially mistaken. I believe that three publishers were involved in this "series" of games. BL made the original Flattop. Avalon Hill republished it, pretty much unadulterated. Finally, Yaquinto published a game called C.V. (Battle of Midway), that used the same system.

On a different note, folks' preference for Flattop may mark a sort of demarcation as to what they might find suitable in a PC game. In that the game focused on air and sea operations with very little attention to the combat portion, I suspect that players who really enjoyed it will be more likely to lean toward something similar in a computer game.

Likewise, players who want more emphasis on the combat element will find strategic/operational level computer carrier games less suitable. In my case, I cited Fast Carriers as being a favorite. Even the venerable Midway from the 1960's has a tactical map and combat. When I purchased Flattop and found that it dealt so superficially with combat, I was really disappointed.

I thought that Fast Carriers did a good job of integrating the three levels, strategic, operational and tactical. It was not without its flaws, though. Without digging out the game to measure, I think that the strategic map(s) measured something like 8 x 6...inches! And the rules really were a straight-jacket of sorts, with a truly Byzantine sequence of play.

I recently purchased a totally different title on Ebay, Carrier Battles, from long defunct Rising Sun Simulations. I haven't had a chance to read the rules, but it appears to be pretty deep on the combat end, so I suspect that I'll enjoy it.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 2/7/2007 5:02:08 PM

GJK

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"Carrier" by Victory Games is a superb solitaire-only game that covers action in the South Pacific. It's highly detailed and the "AI" is really top notch, even for a boardgame. It's not for the faint of heart though, it's fairly complex however it has programmed instructions so that you can read a few pages and play the associated scenario and then read on and learn more for the next scenario.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/15/2007 5:08:08 AM

Koakahiko

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Here's my two cents worth:

Carrier is a great game, lots of suspense and replayability, nice production values. Hard on the ego to get whupped by someone who isn't there, though...

Carrier Battles by Rising Sun Simulations is another good complex carrier game (covers Guadalcanal) and can be played on different levels of complexity.

On the mid-level, I like "Scratch One Flattop" (Coral Sea) and "Incredible Victory " (Midway) There's also a great expansion kit that 's on-line (I think it still is) for the Guadalcanal battles. Takes some time to construct, but worth it.

For a simpler, but not simplistic gaming experience, there's "Victory at Midway," which appeared in Command #14, and "Solomon Sea" which covers Coral Sea/Guadalcanal battles. Ben Knight and Markus Stumpfer got these two little gems right! Fast play, lots of suspense and a good balance of playability and chrome. Excellent search rules. Get 'em if you can find 'em...

Hard to say which is the absolute best - but for good fun that doesn't take a lot of time and still feels like you're commanding carriers, I'd say the last two...

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/15/2007 6:15:04 AM

bradfordkay

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For me, it was Battleline's Flattop. I own both the original Battleline version and AH's version (no real difference, but I felt like rewarding AH for picking it up). I also had Yaquinto's CV, but with only scenarios based on Midway, it had less in the way of replayability.

I also loved Victory Game's Carriers, what I considered to be the solitaire version of Flattop. But some of my fondest memories are of games of Flattop back in the early '80's...

And, yes PoE, I seriously love UV/WITP... so in this case your diagnosis fits...

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/15/2007 6:42:30 AM

Texican

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I vote Flattop and CV (the Midway battle version of Flattop). And of course, I mean the pre-AH Flattop.

I have some fond memories of that game, including one time discussing the rule of point value for aircraft losses. I think you gave the enemy 2 points for each aircraft factor lost.

Anyway, this friend of mine had wanted to clear some space on one of his ships to land some aircraft, meaning he'd have to sacrifice some factors by pushing the planes overboard. I told him that I'd count each of those air factors as 2 victory points for myself. He kept saying it should count as 1 victory point since they're really pushing just the planes overboard, not the pilots. "Sorry, Sir." SPLASH!

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/15/2007 7:17:55 AM

Adam Parker

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Whilst not a carrier game per se, I just took Def Zep's advice in another thread here and picked up Mark Herman's Empire of the Sun board game.

Should fit nicely with the history that Carriers at War is currently teaching me.

How can you resist what's basically a sheet of counters to trim, a single map and card based play? But man, those rules look intimidating

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/19/2007 12:42:46 AM

JD Walter

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Hi Adam,

Mark Herman's "Empire of the Sun" (GMT) can be a difficult game to learn, but once played, its concepts become clear. There is a very helpful website which explains many of the more innovative features of his design, replete with illustrated examples of their use in actual game play:

http://www.wargamereplays.com/eots.html

Glad I could be of service in recommending it; hope you enjoy it. It's a favorite in my ftf boardgaming group, since it plays very cleanly once you've learned it, and Mark does a very good job portraying China's impact on strategy in the theatre.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/19/2007 1:39:08 AM

SquidND

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I would have to say VG's "Carrier" as well. The tactical level of the simulation is excellent. Too much of the combat is abstracted but that can be overcome with the use of Seekrieg or Rising Sun, Command at Sea rules.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/19/2007 2:27:40 AM

carnifex

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the best carrier boardgame was Carrier Strike from....Milton Bradley ;p

best thing about it was:

rules an 8 year-old could understand

high quality plastic carriers and planes not some cheap carboard squares

plastic torpedo chits that you would carry underneath the plastic plane and when in range you would release it and slowly move it hex by hex to your cousin's last carrier while making shark noises (Jaws just came out that same year)

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/19/2007 4:50:50 AM

BoredStiff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Yaquinto?? Avalon Hill?? Wasn't Flattop a Battleline game like those other classics, Air Force and Dauntless.

Yes.

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RE: OT: Best Carrier Board Wargame EVER!!! - 6/19/2007 5:23:15 AM

Adam Parker

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Does anyone know of an area movement Pacific game other than VitP?

Something like Paths of Glory is what I'm thinking about. Got GG's World at War 2 (PC) and I know of Axis and Allies Pacific (board) but I'm thinking something with a bit more sophistication...

PS: Very cool pic Carnifex!

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 6/19/2007 5:24:09 AM >

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