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RE: When? - 5/7/2007 10:58:49 PM   
Darkman99

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		hello,


im a new member in this forum and im very interseted in World of Wlames.
i found a Link on the A-D-G website to a BETA for the computer Game,but the link doesnt work.
has anyone a link to the Beta ?

best regards
Kai

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 331
RE: When? - 5/8/2007 2:50:17 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline 		http://www.a-d-g.com.au/
Then Products
Then WiF the (original) computer game

Price: $15.00 US, $20.00 AU

As Patrice has noted this is the old CWiF, which was prior to MWiF and its changes.

(in reply to Darkman99)
Post #: 332
RE: When? - 5/30/2007 3:39:27 AM   
Jeff Gilbert

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Getting very close to the monthy information update ...  
Always one of my major highlights.

_____________________________

Jeff Gilbert
US Army [Ret]
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 333
RE: When? - 6/1/2007 8:58:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		June 1, 2007 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum
EDIT: Corrected date above from May 1 to June 1.
Accomplishments of May

Project Management
Origins 2008 is still the planned release date.

Communications
Nothing from Rob Armstrong this month.

I monitored all the threads in the MWIF World in Flames forum daily.

I met with Patrice and his family in St. Remy, France for dinner. He and I talked in a WIF dialect of English while our wives spoke French (they looked seriously bored at times).

I couldn’t quite meet up with Jesper (Capitan) while in Provence, France. We got with 100 km of each other, but passed like ships in the night.

I have yet to upload version 4.00 for the beta testers, so things are quiet from them.

No communications this past month with: Chris Marinacci, Harry Rowland, or Dan Hatchen (NetPlay).

I heard from Richard Dazeley again (PhD in AI) who has expressed renewed interest in the AIO for MWIF. I promised to send him a copy of the AIO language specifications I worked out while traveling.

Beta Testing
I didn’t get much time to debug this month. After typing in all the scenario data I started running through each of them to make sure there weren’t typos undetected by the compiler. Of course there were some bugs, most of which were easy to fix, but that still took time.

Units
I made a few tweaks to the data files for the units. Some of the synthetic oil plant units have to be built in specific hexes, and one of them costs extra. I also merged the storage needs for specific city hexes into one location in the files and internal storage. These are for city reserve units, Chinese warlords, and “city based volunteers”. The last are units who fight against the country that originally controls the city, once the city is taken by the enemy. For example, if the Japanese take Calcutta, then they can raise an Indian unit (based in Calcutta) to fight on the side of the Japanese.

While on the plane, I reviewed all the current land unit writeups (152 pages) that Jesper had sent me. Afterwards I typed in my edits at home. This brings me up-to-date reviewing and editing all the writeups (air, naval, and land).

Map
Nothing new. Rob still has a list of small changes to make to finalize the map. I consider the graphics work to be 98% complete with most of the remainder being art work for the packaging and start up screens.

I sent a test file (30% of the world map - a vertical stripe including Iceland, all of Europe, and all of Africa) to Fernando (the printer) just before I left for Europe but I haven’t heard back from him yet. He had said he would produce the map on several different media so I could decide which one works best.

Scenario Information
I finished typing in the data for all 11 scenarios. The later scenarios still need a close review of the various events that are suppose to happen before they start.

For example, Decline and Fall starts with Vichy having been declared and then collapsed and Italy conquered. That scenario contains a lot of naval units from conquered countries that start the scenario as part of a different country’s fleet (e.g., Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, French, Yugoslavian, Greek, and Italian units). The start up instructions for Decline and Fall do not explicitly mention the declaration of Vichy and its collapse, but in game terms that is important because it affects the force pools. I believe I will have to use the historical date for the declaration of Vichy so the modification to the force pool is done correctly.

Player Interface
I started designing the forms/screens for displaying and manipulating naval task forces. These are just groups of naval units that the player can define at will, saving himself time later when deploying them to sea and returning them to base. With the addition of light cruisers from Cruisers in Flames to the unit setups, there are 50 to 100 naval units for the large maritime powers (US, Japan, Commonwealth) that need to be set up at the start of the game and put to sea/return to base each turn.

The design and mechanics for creating and modifying task forces is pretty well set. The next step is to actually create the forms in code and display them for review by the forum members. This is low on my priority list of things to do right now, but I would like to get to it in the next 2 months.

MWIF Game Engine
Not much new here.

Internet - NetPlay
Not much new here.

CWIF Conversion
I am correcting the MWIF Lend Lease routines so they match the WIF FE rules. CWIF used a simplified version of these rules, permitting players to lend lease any air units they wanted to. The Rules as Written (RAW, August 2004) limit which air units can be ‘lent’ to other major powers. These are well defined groups of air units and when the USA lend leases one of it units to the USSR (for example), then the USSR gets a matching unit, which may have slightly altered combat and movement factors. In addition, the USA loses the ability to build the unit it has ‘lent’.

There are 73 lend lease air units in the counter mix and I rechecked all that data for accuracy. I also established exactly which air units constitute each of the 47 lend lease groups, which involves roughly 200 air units out of the 2000+ in the game. Currently, everything loads in correctly at the start of a game..

I still need to modify the player interface to support the new design, though that is partially completed. In order to lend lease a unit, the player who is receiving the unit needs the player who owns the source unit to agree. For example, for the USSR to lend lease a Spitfire, the Commonwealth player has to agree to remove a Spitfire unit from his pool of units available to be built. While in Europe, I worked out a simple solution for when and how to enable units to be lend leased at the start of the game, before the random drawing of units from the force pools takes place.

Saved Games
Not much new here.

Player’s Manual
Nothing new.

Help System, Tutorials, and AI Assistant
Not much new here.

Artificial Intelligence (AI)
I spent most of my travel time working on the AI Opponent. I reviewed the strategic plans for all the major powers and made substantial improvements to them. Since I’ve been back, I’ve typed in the edits to the existing strategic plan documents for France, Japan, and the CW, with my notes for the other major powers still awaiting typing. On average, the strategic plans are running about 40 pages, with some shorter and some longer.

What I am getting closer to is a standard format for all 8 major powers. In fact, I have designed: (1) the data structure for storing about half of the strategic plan information into program variables and (2) the format for the accompanying CSV files. For France, I have written, (for eventual data entry into the CSV file), the half of the strategic plan that has been designed. The idea here is to understand what information a generalized (one size fits all) strategic plan contains, give it a structure, and then format it for rendering in a CSV file. By working with concrete examples, rather than imaginary abstract concepts, I am confident that what I have designed will be usable.

For the portion of the design I am certain about, I have written up code (it still needs to be typed in). The pieces of this puzzle are coming together, but I need to get back to debugging now that I’m home. In a couple of months I’ll have more time to focus on just the AIO, and I then should be able to finalize the strategic plan design in roughly a week.

Second, I created a language for writing rules for the AIO’s decision making. I’m calling this LAIO (Language for AI Opponent) and it is fairly primitive. After exploring the possibilities of a more elaborate language, I decided that the return on the investment of time and effort would be low. In previous jobs I have created fairly complex languages and coded the parsers for processing them, but MWIF presents some obstacles that would require a lot of time to overcome. In particular, the number of variables within the game that the decision rules will reference is very large. Branching logic for the different unit types (70) and terrain types (12) come to mind. There are also the weather, combat tables, and relative strength of the units on map and in production for each country.

Basically, if a rule includes a variable related to the game-in-progress, (e.g., IF Weather = Blizzard ...) then the language would have to provide a means for referencing that variable and the parser would have to establish the link between the rule reference and the game variable. Almost all of these variables have different values (e.g., utArmor, teForest, wtBlizzard, ctAssault), each of which requires its own accommodation within the language. If they all had numeric values between 1 and 100, then things would be easier to code, but that is clearly not the case.

Another possibility would be to write all the AIO rules as code within the program. That is unsatisfactory because it would require recompiling the program every time I changed a rule, even slightly. So I decided I would simplify my life a little and use a hybrid of the two extremes: (1) a full/script language with access to all the game variables and (2) hard coded rules.

Presently the design assigns intermediate variables for each rule (e.g., B1, B2, O1, O2, D1, D2) and the code branches on the rule number to determine what each of those means. So, assuming the JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) rule #10 has a reference to B1, B2, and O1, then internally the program would have hard coded translations. B1 (Boolean 1) might be Weather = Blizzard. It will have a value of True if and only if the current weather is blizzard. Another rule could also use B1 as a variable with a completely different meaning. Indeed, I expect B1 to be a very popular variable.

O is for Ordinal, I is for Integer, and D is for decimal. I intend to make frequent use of one particular ordinal scale: Awful/Poor/Fair/Good/Very Good/Excellent. I have found this to be easier to work with than integer numbers (say from 1 to 100) and decimal numbers (3:2 odds = 1.5). In practice the combat odds would be translated from a decimal number to the APFGVE ordinal scale. Done correctly, the loss of accuracy will have little effect on how well the rule works and the translation from the fine detail of decimal numbers to the cruder ordinal scale will simplify writing the rules enormously.

The rules themselves will be stored in CSV files and reference the intermediate variables. This permits them to be edited without recompiling the program. Of course, if the meaning of an intermediate variable has to be modified, then recompiling will be necessary.

Third, I reviewed all the descriptions I have written up for how each decision the AIO makes should be encoded. There are still gaps in the full set but I have been able to complete about 75% of them. The text descriptions start out as explanations any WIF gamer would understand, progress from there to a more rigorous and exhaustive methodology (that handles all conceivable possibilities), and lastly end up as rules written in LAIO. About a quarter of the rules now have a rigorous methodology associated with them. To summarize: 1/4 blank, ½ with descriptions in WIF terminology, and 1/4 with rigorous methodology. Oh, and one actually written in LAIO.

Just to tie together some loose ends of this description of the AIO:
∙ During a game there are a fixed number of places where the AIO has to make a decision.
∙ For each decision point a LAIO rule will exist.
∙ The AIO will decide what to do by parsing the LAIO rule, dynamically evaluating the intermediate variables, and processing the rule (IF ... THEN ...).
∙ Oftentimes, the LAIO rules will reference the current strategic plan for the major power that is making the decision. Those strategic plans will have been read in from the CSV files (when the Solitaire game began) and stored internally as variables.

Other
The trip from Honolulu to Bulle, Switzerland took 23 hours door to door. However, on the return trip the airline caused enough of a delay that we missed our connection and it took 45 hours (overnight in Houston). Jet lag coming back has been much more difficult too.
====================================================================
May summary: Progress on the AIO was excellent, but debugging for the release of version 4.00 is still taking forever. It was real nice to finish typing in all the scenario data.
====================================================================
Tasks for June

Communications
Continue monitoring the forum threads.

Map and Units
See how Rob is doing on the final touch ups for the map.

Scenarios
Continue testing all scenario data. [est. 10 hours]

Redesign of MWIF Game Engine
Refine the MWIF game engine. [est. 10 hours]

CWIF Conversion
Convert from CWIF style internet formats to Game Record Log Formats. [est. 80 hours]
Test the new random number generator. [est. 1 hour]

Beta Testing
Upload version 4.00 once the game engine redesign is completed and Game Record Log event processing is stable. [est. 1 hour]

Player Interface
Revise the code for determining and displaying supply lines to units. [est. 20 hours]
Display the sequence of play on the screen so the player knows where he is within the SOP and what is coming up next. [est. 30 hours]

NetPlay
Get the bidding capability to function cleanly and modify other aspects of the Player Interface to support NetPlay. [est. 10 hours]
Incorporate the Indy10 code for the two player system into MWIF. [est. 40 hours]

Software Development Tools
Continue replacing old CWIF components with new ones from JEDI. [est. 10 hours]

AI Opponent
Type in the rest of my handwritten notes. [est. 10 hours]

Player’s Manual
Nothing planned for June or July.

Historical Detail, Animations, and Sound
Nothing planned for June or July.

Help System, Tutorials, and AI Assistant
Develop the Introductory Tutorial on supply lines and weather. [est. 20 hours in July]

Other
In early May our chorus had a successful spring show. While my quartet did not sing in the show we were invited to perform at the two cast parties. I have attached a picture of my quartet taken back in February. From left to right they are: Chris (tenor), Jeff (Chris’s father singing lead), me (Bass), and Kamu (Baritone).

At one of the cast parties we performed the song “Sam, You Made the Pants Too Long”, which is told to Sam, a tailor, about how the “coat and vest, fit the best” but the “trousers dragging, slowly dragging through the street; I am walking but I’m walking without feet”. For the performance Chris bought a pair of pants with a 50 inch waist (145 cm) which he held up in one hand while singing the song. Before the song started his father, Jeff, leaned over and peered down the front of Chris’ pants, then turned to the audience with a big smile and said proudly, “That’s my boy!”. In the next post I have attached a picture of us singing the last chord of the song.
================================================================
June summary: Keep trying to give the beta testers 4.00. Finish encoding unit supply calculations. Return to work on Game Record Log conversions in preparation for NetPlay.
================================================================






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 6/28/2007 9:19:43 PM >

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Jeff Gilbert)
Post #: 334
RE: When? - 6/1/2007 9:00:15 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The last chord of "Sam, You Made the Pants Too Long." Note the hands applauding.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 335
RE: When? - 6/1/2007 10:30:20 PM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline 		Nice shirt, A face to the name helps, but you don't look like a Shannon V. OKeets, however!

_____________________________


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 336
RE: When? - 6/2/2007 12:07:58 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Nice shirt, A face to the name helps, but you don't look like a Shannon V. OKeets, however!

What should a Shannon V. OKeets look like ?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I met with Patrice and his family in St. Remy, France for dinner. He and I talked in a WIF dialect of English while our wives spoke French (they looked seriously bored at times).

This was good time !!!! Thanks again for coming !!!

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 337
RE: When? - 6/2/2007 9:26:31 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Lose the old, fat, bald guy with the beard. He looks out of place.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 338
RE: When? - 6/2/2007 11:42:12 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline 		Now you did it Neilster, I would'nt say that because I,m old,fat,bald(no beard though).

_____________________________


(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 339
RE: When? - 6/2/2007 7:31:27 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
Lose the old, fat, bald guy with the beard. He looks out of place.

Cheers, Neilster

Those things don't matter in barbershop singing (though they do on American Idol).

As they say, barbershop is a thinking man's 'sport'.

First, you need good ears to hear whether the note you are singing is perhaps a bit too sharp or flat. Each person is singing a different note and if one note is slightly out of tune, the chord doesn't 'ring'. And ringing chords is what barbershop is all about. When blended perfectly, the wavelengths/frequencies of the 4 notes reinforce each other producing an 'enhanced/expanded' sound - ringing chord. Ideally every chord in a song rings when it is sung correctly. Besides ptich, vowel matching is crucial for the ring disappears if one person sings their A's as in 'hat' while everyone else sings them as in 'car'. And then the volume relationship has to be right too, with the Lead (who usually sings melody) loudest, the bass second loudest (and full, for the lowest frequency is what the other notes enhance), the tenor high/sharp and light, and the baritone slightly low/flat within the range for his note (assuming he is singing the 7th in the chord). At times the baritone notes will look identical on the written music, but actually be sung slightly higher/sharper or lower within the range of the note to make the different chords ring.

Second, you need good production abilities, which is not just how loud you can sing, and how big a breath you can take, but also the ability to sing louder, softer, faster, slower, smoothly, stacatto, etc. as required by the song. barbershioppers always have the same posture when singing, feet positioned directly under hips to the width of the shoulders, and shoulders over hips. You can wave your arms around and turn your head slightly, but the vocal production from diaphragm through vocal folds, and across the soft palate can't be messed up.

Third, timing is crucial. The lead sets the tempo and decides any changes to same during the song. Many barbershop songs have changes in tempo to make the song more interesting to the listener. The 3 harmony parts have to be especially sensitive to what the lead is doing with the song (it is likely to change from one performance to the next depending on the lead's energy level and mood) and come in on each vowel exactly when the lead does, sustaining the note precisely up to the point the lead cuts it off (these are called attacks and releases). And the lead also dictates how loud the song is as it progresses, with the harmony parts required to follow/match.

Fourth, we never sing holding printed music. It is all done from memory. About 8 years ago I was worried that my memory might be fading so as a test I learned the following song (see below - it is sung to the tune of the Mexican Hat Dance). I have since performed this solo on several occasions. Also the 3rd verse is my own invention.

Fifth, as performers we have to emote for the song and convince the audience that we believe every word we are singing with the deepest conviction. Luckily that ususally simply means smiling the whole time with a lot of energy, since we rarely sing depressing songs.

I've been doing this for 10 1/2 years and I am still learning the craft and working on improving my abilities. Inevitably after a performance all 4 guys in the quartet believe they could/should have done better.

Given all that, age and weight don't matter. Though perseverance, dedication, and personality do. The 4 guys have to really be able to get along and work hard to be capable of singing even one song well together.

======
Yakko’s World by Randy Rogel
(as sung by Brian Philbin of Metropolis)
Lyrics modified by Steven Hokanson, July 16, 1999 and May 16, 2006

United States, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru,
Republic Dominican, Cuba, Carribean, Greenland, El Salvador too,
Puerto Rico, Colombia, Venezuela, Honduras, Guyana and still,
Guatemala, Bolivia, then Argentina, and Equador, Chile, Brazil,
Costa Rica, Belize, Nicaragua, Bermuda, Bahamas, Tobago, San Juan,
Paraguay, Uruguay, Suriname, and French Guiana, Barbados, and Guam.

Norway and Sweden and Iceland and Finland and Germany, now in one piece,
Switzerland, Austria, Czech and Slovakia, Italy, Turkey, and Greece,
Poland, Romania, Scotland, Albania, Ireland, Russia, Oman,
Bulgaria, Saudi Arabia, Hungary, Cyprus, Iraq and Iran,
There’s Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, both Yemens, Kuwait, and Bahrain,
The Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium and Portugal, France, England, Denmark and Spain.

Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, the Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan,
Croatia, Moldova, Slovenia, and Lithuania, Uzbekistan,
St. Lucia, St. Vincent, St. Kitts and Nevis, the Solomon Islands, Nauru,
East Timor, Samoa, the Seychelles, the Marshalls, the Maldives, and Vanuatu.
Cote D’Ivoire, Comoros, Andorra, Grenada, Belarus, and Turkmenistan,
Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Tajikistan,

India, Pakistan, Burma, Afghanistan, Thailand, Nepal, and Bhutan,
Kampuchea, Malaysia, then Bangladesh Asia and China, Korea, Japan.
Mongolia, Laos, Tibet, Indonesia, the Philippine Islands, Taiwan,
Sri Lanka, New Guinea, Sumatra, New Zealand, and Borneo and Vietnam,
Tunisia, Morocco, Uganda, Angola, Zimbabwe, Djibouti, Botswana,
Mozambique, Zambia, Swaziland, Gambia, Guinea, Algeria, Ghana.

Burundi, Lesotho, and Malawi, Togo, the Spanish Sahara is gone,
Niger, Nigeria, Benin, Liberia, Egypt, U.A.E., Gabon,
Tanzania, Somalia, Kenya, and Mali, Sierra Leone and Algiers,
Eritrea, Namibia, Senegal, Lybia, Cameroon, Qatar, and Zaire.
Ethiopia, Guinea Bissau, Madagascar, Rwanda, Majorca, Cayman,
Congo, South Africa, and Mauritania, Antigua, Chad, Cape Verde, Dominica,
Monaco, Liechtenstein, Malta and Palestine, Fiji, Australia, Sudan.

Ole.

Underlined portions are SJH modifications/interpretations. Czech and Slovakia substitutes for Czechoslovakia since the latter was split into the two separate countries. Congo, South Africa replaces Hong Kong (since it was incorporated into China proper in 1998). Yugoslavia was removed since it dissolved into separate countries in the 1990's.

The new third verse is composed mostly of countries from the break up of the USSR and Yugoslavia, plus some newly independent countries in the South Pacific.

Countries that are still missing are:
Burkina Faso, Brunei, Central Africa, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Palau, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Singapore, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vatican, Micronesia, and Kyrgystan,



_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 340
RE: When? - 6/2/2007 7:39:32 PM   
Jeff Gilbert

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		What do you mean? Old, fat, blad guy in the picture ... 

Heck, I thought I was looking in a mirror at one fine looking distinguished gentleman.   


_____________________________

Jeff Gilbert
US Army [Ret]
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 341
RE: When? - 6/2/2007 11:16:44 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Yakko’s World by Randy Rogel
(as sung by Brian Philbin of Metropolis)
Lyrics modified by Steven Hokanson, July 16, 1999 and May 16, 2006

You should record the song, and put it as a theme available for the MWiF player when he reads the credits for example, of when he is in the "relations" dialog where you see countries relationships.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 342
RE: When? - 6/3/2007 12:14:40 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Yeah, I saw that episode of The Simpsons.

Actually, my Mum sings solo in front of hundreds of people at church. She kicks arse. My dad was really good too. I've won every karaoke competition I've ever been in (which admittedly isn't many). Singing is fun. I just don't do it much. Keep it up.

Cheers, Neilster





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 343
RE: When? - 6/6/2007 9:21:00 AM   
morkin

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Countries that are still missing are:
Burkina Faso, Brunei, Central Africa, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Palau, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Singapore, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vatican, Micronesia, and Kyrgystan,


Montenegro?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 344
RE: When? - 6/6/2007 11:50:15 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Abkhazia and Transnistria? Bit controversial those...but if you need an AK-74, RPG-7 or a T-54, put them on your holiday itinerary.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to morkin)
Post #: 345
RE: When? - 6/6/2007 8:13:33 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morkin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Countries that are still missing are:
Burkina Faso, Brunei, Central Africa, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Palau, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Singapore, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vatican, Micronesia, and Kyrgystan,


Montenegro?

Ah, yes.

But if you check the dates, I wrote that on May 16, 2006. Montenegro officially separated from Serbia on May 21, 2006 (saved by the bell).

There are a lot of partial names in the list (both Yemens, Korea, U. A. E.) and some extra words (Cuba Carribean, Bangladesh Asia). After all, this is just a song not an encyclopedia. As it is, there aren't enough remaining countries to make up an additional verse, much less fit them into the meter and get them to rhyme. And 195 countries seems a respectable quantitiy.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to morkin)
Post #: 346
RE: When? - 6/7/2007 1:13:03 AM   
willycube

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		No disrespect intended of any kind Mr. Okeets but after reading all of these forums about this game I am getteing the feeling of helter skelter, after the terrible dissapointment of the conversion of Third Reich to the computer and the failure of such an attempt by people who charged a lot of money and delivered nothing. Are you a company attempting to convert this game to the computer or seperate groups of individuals working on it when you can? Do you work on this game full time or when you can? I ask these questions because the game looks interesting to me and would love to see it completed before I end up in a nursing home {I'm 65 years old} You say Origins 2008, are you saying maybe a year from now? Not being a wise guy, just would like some facts about the programming. Also if I have not ruined my raport with you too badly I would like to be a playtester as I am retired and have plenty of time on my hands.

Willycube

Bill Bowen

bowenw@rcn.com

(in reply to Darkman99)
Post #: 347
RE: When? - 6/7/2007 2:51:19 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube
No disrespect intended of any kind Mr. Okeets but after reading all of these forums about this game I am getteing the feeling of helter skelter, after the terrible dissapointment of the conversion of Third Reich to the computer and the failure of such an attempt by people who charged a lot of money and delivered nothing. Are you a company attempting to convert this game to the computer or seperate groups of individuals working on it when you can? Do you work on this game full time or when you can? I ask these questions because the game looks interesting to me and would love to see it completed before I end up in a nursing home {I'm 65 years old} You say Origins 2008, are you saying maybe a year from now? Not being a wise guy, just would like some facts about the programming. Also if I have not ruined my raport with you too badly I would like to be a playtester as I am retired and have plenty of time on my hands.

Willycube

Bill Bowen

bowenw@rcn.com

Perhaps some more reading would help.

The thread Directory (first post) gives an overview of the rest of this forum. I usually point readers who are new to MWIF to that thread as a good starting place.

This thread (When?) contains monthly updates (written by me), starting from July 2005, which is when I got involved with the project.

Helter skelter? The game is enormous, and the pieces interact with each other heavily. It is very difficult to find any one piece that can be done in isolation. So, the work requires pulling together many disparate portions of the code and making sure they are synchronized. For example, this morning I reviewed and commented all the code related to whether/when units/countries cooperate. That involved which countries are at war, which were conquered, which were liberated, special units (Italy's AOI unit), territorial units, minor countries, subcountries, Vichy France, ...). Actually, I started this morning looking at determining supply and that had a reference to which countries/units cooperate, so I needed to ascertain that the ccde for cooperation worked correctly (a few minor corrections were needed). In order to keep my efficiency high, I generally have several types of tasks at the top of my queue. Foremost are debugging tasks (which are hard work, often with nothing tangible accomplished after hours of effort), but I keep some mindless editing task available for when my brain functions are at an ebb, and I maintain a "brand new code" task on the list so I have a sense of forward progress.

As an example of editing tasks, I finished entering the Scenario Data last week and currently I'm typing in the hand written notes for the AI Opponent I made while traveling.

For brand new code tasks, yesterday I finished coding and validating the routine to make sure that the USSR and Germans set up such that a unit is adjacent to every hex of the their common frontline. And today I continued an effort I started last month with rewriting the supply routines (from scratch).

At present my overall thrust is to get version 4.0 out to the beta testers which involves primarily debugging tasks but I also would like 4.0 to at least permit setting up all 11 scenarios and with roughly 8 major powers per sceanrio, that means checking out (i.e., alpha testing) the setup routines for 80+ countries. The setup instructions for WIF are 40+ pages of fine print, with many items that are unique to individual scenarios.

So yes, developing MWIF is not straightforward, like writing code for chess with only 6 unit types, 1 terrain type, and 64 squares total. But there is an overall task list. Tasks are being completed. And there is a schedule measured out in increments of 5 hours. Omniscience is not part of my skill set, so the best I can do is give estimates.

Finally, Greyshaft maintins the list of beta testers, so you should send a PM (personal message) to him.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to willycube)
Post #: 348
RE: When? - 6/7/2007 5:37:42 AM   
willycube

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		Forgive me Steve if I sound a little frustratred with the forums I have been reading, I meant helter skelter in another way not as any kind of a slur. You did not answer the oigins 2008 question and I am sure you have been bombarded [excuse the pun] about the release date. I sort of jumped the gun but when you see a game of great possibilities, you wan't it yesterday, and you are probably right I did not read enough of the forums.

willycube

(in reply to Darkman99)
Post #: 349
RE: When? - 6/7/2007 5:38:23 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I cannot understand any of that big-brain stuff Mr. OKeets is talking about, but man, that sounds great!!!  I cannot wait to get my hands on this monster!  If I were intelligent, I would give you a hand.  I am pretty good with crayons, maybe I could help you color some of the counters .  Thanks for all the hard work

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 350
RE: When? - 6/7/2007 7:16:38 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

I cannot understand any of that big-brain stuff Mr. OKeets is talking about, but man, that sounds great!!!  I cannot wait to get my hands on this monster!  If I were intelligent, I would give you a hand.  I am pretty good with crayons, maybe I could help you color some of the counters .  Thanks for all the hard work

There are separate threads for most of the introductory tutorials (1 -> 7, if I remember correctly), if you want to learn more about WIF (board game version) and MWIF (Matrix's computer game version).

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 6/7/2007 7:17:09 AM >

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to balto)
Post #: 351
RE: When? - 6/10/2007 5:21:30 PM   
abuspud

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/10/2007
Status: offline 		LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...

(in reply to willycube)
Post #: 352
RE: When? - 6/10/2007 8:25:42 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...


With all due respect, your expectations might be a bit high. Let's face a few realities here. Grognard gamers like us are a distinct minority. Most gamers want dazzling graphics and shoot-em-up titles and that is what is produced en masse. The reason dozens of major corporations are not rushing to build highly complex and detailed computer wargames is because there is very little profit in doing so. The reason why a major company didn't release this in 1999 and do 6 updates since then is because we are a minority community and companies can't earn big bucks serving us. That long wait isn't because of some global conspiracy, it is because this is a niche market and no one is willing to make a major investment and produce a multi-million dollar title when the top-end sales potential is limited to a few thousand units. You really need to understand that we're lucky to have this game progressing at all. Making this game isn't the world's greatest financial opportunity for these guys, it is a labor of love that they hope will also make them a little money.

So yes, it is moving a bit slowly. If you have a major investment you'd like to make so they could hire a large team and move it along faster, I am sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you. Absent that though, understand that it won't come together quickly and that when it is released, it will still have bugs. With a game this complex, there is no way they could ever do enough testing to eliminate them all regardless of how much money they had to spend. But the good news is, as a labor of love they want to get it right. And as a labor of love, if history is any guide based on other Matrix releases, they will continue to support and enhance the game long after the majority of sales are behind them and there is no real economic incentive to do so.

Like you, I'd love to have this game in my hands right now. Like you, I'd love for it to be a perfect piece of software with no bugs at all. But we all must understand and accept the market realities of projects such as this one. While I love to stomp my feet and scream about the customer always being right as much as the next guy, the relationship must be more reciprocal in a small niche market. They need us to buy the games - that is absolutely true. But there won't be a lot of others lining up to take their place and do it better, faster & cheaper if we choose not to support them.

(in reply to abuspud)
Post #: 353
RE: When? - 6/11/2007 8:26:31 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain


quote:

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...


With all due respect, your expectations might be a bit high. Let's face a few realities here. Grognard gamers like us are a distinct minority. Most gamers want dazzling graphics and shoot-em-up titles and that is what is produced en masse. The reason dozens of major corporations are not rushing to build highly complex and detailed computer wargames is because there is very little profit in doing so. The reason why a major company didn't release this in 1999 and do 6 updates since then is because we are a minority community and companies can't earn big bucks serving us. That long wait isn't because of some global conspiracy, it is because this is a niche market and no one is willing to make a major investment and produce a multi-million dollar title when the top-end sales potential is limited to a few thousand units. You really need to understand that we're lucky to have this game progressing at all. Making this game isn't the world's greatest financial opportunity for these guys, it is a labor of love that they hope will also make them a little money.

So yes, it is moving a bit slowly. If you have a major investment you'd like to make so they could hire a large team and move it along faster, I am sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you. Absent that though, understand that it won't come together quickly and that when it is released, it will still have bugs. With a game this complex, there is no way they could ever do enough testing to eliminate them all regardless of how much money they had to spend. But the good news is, as a labor of love they want to get it right. And as a labor of love, if history is any guide based on other Matrix releases, they will continue to support and enhance the game long after the majority of sales are behind them and there is no real economic incentive to do so.

Like you, I'd love to have this game in my hands right now. Like you, I'd love for it to be a perfect piece of software with no bugs at all. But we all must understand and accept the market realities of projects such as this one. While I love to stomp my feet and scream about the customer always being right as much as the next guy, the relationship must be more reciprocal in a small niche market. They need us to buy the games - that is absolutely true. But there won't be a lot of others lining up to take their place and do it better, faster & cheaper if we choose not to support them.

Jeez...all he said was that computer WiF was supposed to be out by 1999, which is true. BTW, I know this is a different project. I've been involved since the beginning.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to jchastain)
Post #: 354
RE: When? - 6/11/2007 11:44:55 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		LOL, my experience is that "tolerance" for bugs and glitches is low even if a game comes out before you even knew it was being made. Not that I would ever be intolerant ( please do not look in any of the game forums I play) LOL.

(in reply to Darkman99)
Post #: 355
RE: When? - 6/15/2007 7:19:57 PM   
abuspud

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/10/2007
Status: offline 		Umm - don't know what in my post led you to think I don't understand any of that. I should - there's very little in your comment that hasn't been posted in some form many times since 1998. In fact, I thought the whole point of taking the project away from Chris and giving it to Matrix was to move it out of the "labor of love" category.

You really need to understand that we're lucky to have this game progressing at all.

Why do I really need to understand that? When Chris was running the show as a labor of love, we were really lucky to have the game progressing because we were part of the progression, and every advancement in the game was a cause for celebration. Now it's been years of knowing that somewhere some beta testers are probably having a good time with it. That doesn't make me lucky at all. What will make ME lucky at this point is seeing this puppy actually published in a form that was worth the wait, hopefully before my son leaves home for college and I still have a chance of interesting him.


So, no, my post wasn't about 'expectations.' My 'expectations' are very realistic, thank you. I understand the concept of a niche market; I also understand that a generation of potential additions to this niche market is passing you by without even the Chris-era teasers to keep us intrigued ... 'nuff said.

(in reply to jchastain)
Post #: 356
RE: When? - 6/15/2007 7:55:54 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abuspud
In fact, I thought the whole point of taking the project away from Chris and giving it to Matrix was to move it out of the "labor of love" category.

I wanted to answer you that I too was involved in Chris' days of CWiF since March or April 1998, and that I kept being involved in the Matrix's days of CWiF because it still is in the "labor of love" category.

(in reply to abuspud)
Post #: 357
RE: When? - 6/16/2007 2:54:56 AM   
willycube

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...


The reason I apoligized Abuspud is because I probably did not read enough of the forums, your right they probably were not in order [the apoligies] I used the word helter skelter for a reason that someone took exception to. I was trying to find out if this game was being done by a company [Matrix] or a bunch of programmers doing it as a labor of love [nothing wrong with that]. Helter skelter came out of me because one of the moderators was saying this guy was doing this when he could and the other guy when he could, or he did not hear from this other guy for awhile. so on and on. What I was trying to find out was who was doing this game, and also I did not receive an answer about origins 2008 when I asked about it.
I guess I was trying to find out is this game ever going to come to market, if it is going to be another 2 years than forget about it I will probably be in a nursing home by then.

Willy

(in reply to abuspud)
Post #: 358
RE: When? - 6/16/2007 3:02:01 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube
quote:

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...


The reason I apoligized Abuspud is because I probably did not read enough of the forums, your right they probably were not in order [the apoligies] I used the word helter skelter for a reason that someone took exception to. I was trying to find out if this game was being done by a company [Matrix] or a bunch of programmers doing it as a labor of love [nothing wrong with that]. Helter skelter came out of me because one of the moderators was saying this guy was doing this when he could and the other guy when he could, or he did not hear from this other guy for awhile. so on and on. What I was trying to find out was who was doing this game, and also I did not receive an answer about origins 2008 when I asked about it.
I guess I was trying to find out is this game ever going to come to market, if it is going to be another 2 years than forget about it I will probably be in a nursing home by then.

Willy

The top line of my monthly report gives an expected release date. So I believe I answer that question every month.

Sorry to hear about your failing health. The pains of growing older are better than the alternatives though.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to willycube)
Post #: 359
RE: When? - 6/24/2007 1:57:49 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I never played the board game and this project looks ambitious.. I am not sureabout the ai in a game of this magnatude.. keep the info flowing .. thanks

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 360
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