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Another way to get Chinese slots - 6/6/2007 5:19:48 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I am about to freeze RHS development in the broader sense. We now know how many slots are open (not very many).

Is there any case we have omitted a significant ROC or Red Army formation?

Is there any case we have mislocated a ROC or Red formation?

Is there any case we have missed a major weapon in a ROC or Red formation? Or grossly overrated the
strength of such a unit?

If there any case we have duplicated formations (due to name changes)?

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/18/2007 2:04:34 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 5:57:19 AM   
Badnews


Posts: 88
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: China
Status: offline 		I am editing the OOB of Chinese Army.
There are about 40 Army, 120 Corps and 230 Divisions in Chinese regular Army in 1937-1945.
Not including the Red Army.
The 18th Group Army has 1,020,000 soilder in 1945.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 6:39:06 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		That only is possible if "Chinese regular army" includes "warrant" troops. They really are factional troops.
And note that they change sides under pressure.

Further - it isn't likely a group army (= 3 divisions) has a million men. Even if it did - it would not have weapons for a whole army group - so it would not matter very much.

But specifics we can use and will consider.

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 3
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 5:01:07 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		I'm glad to see that it's generally accepted that China was under-represnted in stock WitP.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 4
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 6:09:42 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Badnews

I am editing the OOB of Chinese Army.
There are about 40 Army, 120 Corps and 230 Divisions in Chinese regular Army in 1937-1945.
Not including the Red Army.
The 18th Group Army has 1,020,000 soilder in 1945.



18th Group Army was the Eight Route Army. When the CCP and KMT formed the united front the official name of the Eight Route Army was the 18th jituanjun. jituanjun is sometimes translated as Army. jun is Corps. How best to represent the increasing guerilla activity of the Communists in the current game design is certainly problematic. But rest assured the 1,020,000 men were guerillas.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 5
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 6:23:10 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		are you arming them all?

_____________________________


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Post #: 6
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 6:28:46 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

are you arming them all?


Me? - Edit: Oops i saw it was in reply to badnews...

< Message edited by treespider -- 6/15/2007 6:29:25 PM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 7
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 6:46:40 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		well your doing a china alteration so feel free as well.

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Post #: 8
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 6:58:29 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Badnews

I am editing the OOB of Chinese Army.
There are about 40 Army, 120 Corps and 230 Divisions in Chinese regular Army in 1937-1945.
Not including the Red Army.
The 18th Group Army has 1,020,000 soilder in 1945.



18th Group Army was the Eight Route Army. When the CCP and KMT formed the united front the official name of the Eight Route Army was the 18th jituanjun. jituanjun is sometimes translated as Army. jun is Corps. How best to represent the increasing guerilla activity of the Communists in the current game design is certainly problematic. But rest assured the 1,020,000 men were guerillas.


Then we are OK - because we have separated out the guerillas - although not a million of them - we have as many as we can find slots for. It is enough to complicate things - and they regenerate very fast - as all Chinese units do. Our guerillas are self feeding - and communist ones stronger (because they feed more they tend to have a higher strength).

The correct traditional translation is "army" - it is an ancient usage and it is also the source of the term in Japanese. Many modern people feel "corps" is better because it is similar in size to a Western corps however. We also have the Eighth Route Army - as all mods do I think - but ours has a famous and skilled commander - as does another Chinese Red "corps". We strictly use literal traditional translations - so a "field army" means two divisions and a "group army" means three divisions.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 9
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/15/2007 7:01:47 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

are you arming them all?


I do not. Instead, I arm the "cadre." Each "regiment" is about a battalion in size - with a tiny number of heavy weapons - but it regenerates wherever it is - local supplies or not - so there are de facto lots of people around helping out - and replacing losses. I separate ROC guerillas and Red guerillas into different support categories - a wholly unsupplied ROC guerilla unit will tend (not in battle ) to be 2/3 strength while a wholly unsupplied Red guerilla unit (not in battle) will tend to be full strength - and have extra supplies. When they approach full value both types will "plant" and not move around - but help any attack in the hex - defend the hex - and provide recon/intel in the hex. If hurt badly they will "unplant" and retreat - and be free to move wherever for a while - and a player can use them to mess up enemy LOC. I regard the invention (by Treespider) of guerillas as wonderful - but I like the RHS variation better still - since they are not the same as regulars and do not "mass" to attack like regulars do - although you often get one or two in a major attack. Their role is really not meant to be that of attacking as part of an army - but of getting in the way and cutting LOC.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/15/2007 7:03:13 PM >

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 10
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 11:13:50 AM   
Badnews


Posts: 88
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: China
Status: offline 		Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.



< Message edited by Badnews -- 6/16/2007 11:15:48 AM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 11
66th Chinese Corps - 6/16/2007 12:47:58 PM   
Badnews


Posts: 88
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: China
Status: offline 		66th Chinese Corps
66C founded in 1937, and been withdraw in 1940.

66C has rebuild in 1942.3, including N28D, N38D, N39D.
Comander: Zhang, Zhen (1942.3)
66C fight against Japanese at Lashio in Burma, and been withdraw in 1942.3.29.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps in 1942.12, inluding Temp.32D, Temp.33D, Temp.34D, Temp.35D.
Comander: Feng, Sheng-fa (1942.12~1943.2)
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.2)
66C fight in Zhejiang Province, east of China, and been withdraw in 1943.2.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps  again  in 1943.10, including 185D, 199D.
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.10~1944.8)
Comander: Song, Rui-ke (1944.8~)
66C fight against Japanese near Changsha

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 12
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 12:59:26 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Badnews

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.




OK - lets be clear here - THIS thread is an RHS thread - and its purpose is served by this kind of data. Since RHS is a fork from CHS - it inherits this sort of thing. And thank you for being first to respond as requested.

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 13
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 1:16:11 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Badnews

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.




Incorrect. In Treespider's CHS 60th Corps starts in Mengtze in hex 37,33 one hex to the SW of Kunming on the map which is located on the Indo-Chinese Border.


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 14
RE: 66th Chinese Corps - 6/16/2007 1:54:37 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Badnews

66th Chinese Corps
66C founded in 1937, and been withdraw in 1940.

66C has rebuild in 1942.3, including N28D, N38D, N39D.
Comander: Zhang, Zhen (1942.3)
66C fight against Japanese at Lashio in Burma, and been withdraw in 1942.3.29.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps in 1942.12, inluding Temp.32D, Temp.33D, Temp.34D, Temp.35D.
Comander: Feng, Sheng-fa (1942.12~1943.2)
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.2)
66C fight in Zhejiang Province, east of China, and been withdraw in 1943.2.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps  again  in 1943.10, including 185D, 199D.
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.10~1944.8)
Comander: Song, Rui-ke (1944.8~)
66C fight against Japanese near Changsha



Unfortunately the game currently does not allow you to withdraw units.

In Treespider's CHS I opted to place the 66th corps in Wan-Hsien as a static corps composed of the 185th and 199th ID.

In reviewing I have overlooked 93rd, 55th Prov., and the N28, N38 & N39Ds ...my bad. IIRC I had them in the original CHS but when I redid the Orbat I forgot to place them back into the game. Not sure why I did that they are sitting there in my written notes...too many late nights I suppose.




_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 15
RE: 66th Chinese Corps - 6/16/2007 2:11:21 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Badnews, I'm looking forward to seeing your mod when it is released. Perhaps through the collaboration of all members here we will eventually see an accurate representation of China within the game.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 16
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 10:18:11 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Badnews

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.



Oh I humbly submit that the Chinese OOB and deployment in the B-Mod is full of errors, since I could not find any sources detailing Chinese forces and deployment beyond what stock gives you.
I merely wanted to increase Chinese force levels to some semblance of China would have had in the period in question - so as not to let China routinely be overrun as the stock game allows you. (I read that China had some 550 divisions during the war - but not all at once).

I did, however, find references to the make up of the KMT Central Army (reckoned at 80 divisions of about 8,000 men each - as opposed to Regional Army divisions at about 4,000-5,000 men), Changs' artillery park and the types and approximate number of guns, etc., which I implemented. And the best approximate front line at start was taken from the latest CHS at the time - which Treespider did.

But under no circumstances did I ever consider the Chinese OOB in B-Mod as definitive, so I am in total agreement with you,
and if you can actually come up with an accurate Chinese OOB - my hat is off to you!


Brian



< Message edited by Big B -- 6/16/2007 10:37:49 PM >

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 17
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 10:40:07 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		It bothers me that it is so easy to allow cooperation between Nationalist forces and Communist forces against the Japanese, (stacking, etc.)
IRL there were Japanese observations of Communist forces actively attacking Nationalist forces retreating from the Japanese, (not to assist the Japanese, but to kick 'em while they were down).
The Russians chose to lend assistance to the Nationalist forces figuring they had a better chance to drain the Japanese of strength, but planning on aiding the Communist forces once Japan had been rendered defeated.


I wonder if maybe the Communist Chinese should be made "russian"(inactive), or maybe just all *static*??

_____________________________




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Post #: 18
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 10:48:29 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

It bothers me that it is so easy to allow cooperation between Nationalist forces and Communist forces against the Japanese, (stacking, etc.)
IRL there were Japanese observations of Communist forces actively attacking Nationalist forces retreating from the Japanese, (not to assist the Japanese, but to kick 'em while they were down).
The Russians chose to lend assistance to the Nationalist forces figuring they had a better chance to drain the Japanese of strength, but planning on aiding the Communist forces once Japan had been rendered defeated.


I wonder if maybe the Communist Chinese should be made "russian"(inactive), or maybe just all *static*??

I chose to make all the communist forces "static" except for guerilla units.

It was a situation that is very hard to duplicate in a two side game like this..

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 19
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/16/2007 11:15:19 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

It bothers me that it is so easy to allow cooperation between Nationalist forces and Communist forces against the Japanese, (stacking, etc.)
IRL there were Japanese observations of Communist forces actively attacking Nationalist forces retreating from the Japanese, (not to assist the Japanese, but to kick 'em while they were down).
The Russians chose to lend assistance to the Nationalist forces figuring they had a better chance to drain the Japanese of strength, but planning on aiding the Communist forces once Japan had been rendered defeated.


I wonder if maybe the Communist Chinese should be made "russian"(inactive), or maybe just all *static*??


I made the communists in Yenan static...the Russian option is one thing i kicked around and seriously considered making the communists russian troops. But i didn't test so I'm not sure how it would affect russian activation.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 20
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 1:52:25 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		We also could make a house rule - no joint attacks - period.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 21
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 11:42:20 AM   
Badnews


Posts: 88
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: China
Status: offline 		Sorry for my poor English, I'm try to give more information for you.
Generally say, the size of Chinese regular army is:
1938    49 Corps, including 182 Divsions and 80 Bdes.
1942    92 Corps, including 245 Divsions.
1945    124 Corps, inclusing 354 Divisions, 81 Ind.Bdes and 112 Ind. Regt. More than 4,000,000 men.
1946    113 Corps. Change to 89 Regroup Divisions when the civil war start.
I am doing a mod called "Blood War 43-46" with new Chinese OOB, I will release it in a few days.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 22
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 12:27:19 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Regretfully, we lack the slots to add a lot of Chinese units. I did just create the first ROC reinforcement - but at the cost of a guerilla unit. The WITP design pretty much makes adding the units a bad idea anyway: Chinese units regenerate very fast - and so while they may have the wrong name - they will tend to always be around.

What we could attempt is to make the Chinese units get bigger. This just might work out as supply in China is so marginal that they would not do that unless

a) The Japanese withdraw a lot or

b) The Allies send a lot of supply in

(in reply to Badnews)
Post #: 23
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 5:45:01 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Regretfully, we lack the slots to add a lot of Chinese units. I did just create the first ROC reinforcement - but at the cost of a guerilla unit. The WITP design pretty much makes adding the units a bad idea anyway: Chinese units regenerate very fast - and so while they may have the wrong name - they will tend to always be around.

What we could attempt is to make the Chinese units get bigger. This just might work out as supply in China is so marginal that they would not do that unless

a) The Japanese withdraw a lot or

b) The Allies send a lot of supply in


Sid, if there are any zones(hexes) with stacked Communict units, and "if" they were made static, would it free slots to combine the unit, "HQ" or "base/fortess" style??


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Post #: 24
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 8:11:19 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Since the communists were far more likely to seek out and engage the Japanese -

it would be better to make the ROC static than the Reds

And I do not see how making any unit static "frees up a slot"???

Static or not it needs a slot.

Further - in RHS it is the guerillas - ROC and Red - that are semi-static- being mobile is what distinguishes a regular unit from a guerilla (along with supply stuff - if that even works ).

It is far easier to forbid Red and ROC to stack together than to make either static.

IF you want more slots - combine divisions into Armies - I guess. Most "armies" have two divisions ("field armies") - the remainder have three ("group armies"). This is more or less traditional - and IJA used the same name - an IJA "army" is also 2 or 3 divisions as a rule.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 25
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 9:03:51 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Since the communists were far more likely to seek out and engage the Japanese -

it would be better to make the ROC static than the Reds

And I do not see how making any unit static "frees up a slot"???

Static or not it needs a slot.

Further - in RHS it is the guerillas - ROC and Red - that are semi-static- being mobile is what distinguishes a regular unit from a guerilla (along with supply stuff - if that even works ).

It is far easier to forbid Red and ROC to stack together than to make either static.

IF you want more slots - combine divisions into Armies - I guess. Most "armies" have two divisions ("field armies") - the remainder have three ("group armies"). This is more or less traditional - and IJA used the same name - an IJA "army" is also 2 or 3 divisions as a rule.




Yeah..I was addressing 2 challenges at the same time, combining forces to a higher level of organisation to free slots, and giving them a static component to prevent overt mobility.
Not sure if you meant to imply the ROC did not conduct active warfare against Japan,(if that is indeed what you seemed to imply in this post?)

_____________________________




(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 26
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/17/2007 11:26:53 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		You read that right. It might be better simulation to have most of the ROC absent - except it did tend to be in the way.

The active portion of the war for ROC Army ended BEFORE WITP begins. The ROC - unwisely - committed all 10 of its reformed and relatively professional divisions to the defense of Nanking - and lost the lot (along with a great deal more).
It is a source of some bitterness that afterward a gigantic portion of the ROC went over to Japan - under the number 2 leader of the KMT - and begins our game on the "wrong" side. [Had Japan not been hoodwinked by Chiang into not recognizing the Nanking regime sooner, China might have lost the war. Chiang "negotiated" at Hong Kong so long that the defectors came to be seen as something similar to Quislings - which in fact they were not. It was traditional in ROC to calculate which way the wind was blowing - based on Sun Tzu no less - and change sides based on that calculation. It even has a name in Chinese.] Anyway - after that the ROC was remarkably passive - and the ROC ALSO traded - big time - with Japan in strategic materials. Much of Japan's uranium - and a great deal of other minerals - came from ROC China - DURING the war! [Again - that is fairly traditional in China] The Red's were proud that they actually sought battle with the enemy - although this has been somewhat overstated by the regime since - it is based on a kernal of fact.

In RHS portions of the former ROC (and other "Chinese") armies are in IJA service - including static units at Nanking and Peking, the "Mongol Army" (also static) up North, and quite a sizeable mobile force of Mongol Cavalry (which also are present in all forms of WITP) plus several Manchurian units of various kinds - brigades - a cavalry formation - and even an ethnic Russian unit. [Many people today believe that Manchuria is "part of China" - wether or not it was then is a somewhat questionable idea - but I included it here for purposes of being complete. Similarly I included Inner Mongolia and a smaller "country" in Northeast China.] If the so called 'puppet troops' are considered Chinese - and indeed most are not only ethnic Chinese but official ROC formations with ROC leaders and uniforms - then I DO use the static concept for "Chinese troops" - just not on the Allied side. Only the Mongol Cavalry and the Manchu's are mobile.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/17/2007 11:33:33 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 27
RE: Another way to get Chinese slots - 6/18/2007 2:06:14 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Chinese ROC artillery units are only battalions. So in addition to combining divisions into armies, we could combine artillery battalions into groups - or also put one in some armies.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 28
RE: Another way to get Chinese slots - 6/18/2007 2:24:45 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Good idea. Stands to reason the artillery would only be committed where infantry support was present.

_____________________________




(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 29
RE: Another way to get Chinese slots - 6/18/2007 1:48:46 PM   
Tomo


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/10/2004
From: JAPAN
Status: offline 		More Japanese troops! More Japanese troops!!

_____________________________

Japanese wargamer. Will post from "the other side" .

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 30
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