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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> TOAW III Support >> Transport Helo's, etc.

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Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/7/2007 8:44:33 PM

Shawmut

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From: Boston, MA USA
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I seem to be failing in using my Helo's for equipment or troop transport in modern settings. I go through the step of placing it over a unit I want to move and then it ends up empty at the destination. I'm sure I'm missing something quite obvious.

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Post #: 1

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/7/2007 9:02:53 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawmut

I seem to be failing in using my Helo's for equipment or troop transport in modern settings. I go through the step of placing it over a unit I want to move and then it ends up empty at the destination. I'm sure I'm missing something quite obvious.

You are...

Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport. You do NOT need to have the transport helicopter unit in the same hex. Only within 200 Km of the unit to be moved. Provided enough transport capacity exists within 200 Km of the unit, it will have the helicopter icon appear in the unit panel, and the right-click menu options for the unit. Click embark, move the unit, and then right click disembark. Alternatively, you can select another unit and the first one will automatically disembark.

(in reply to Shawmut)

Post #: 2

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/7/2007 9:19:34 PM

Jo van der Pluym

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From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawmut

I seem to be failing in using my Helo's for equipment or troop transport in modern settings. I go through the step of placing it over a unit I want to move and then it ends up empty at the destination. I'm sure I'm missing something quite obvious.

You are...

Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport. You do
NOT need to have the transport helicopter unit in the same hex. Only within 200 Km of the unit to be moved. Provided enough transport capacity exists within 200 Km of the unit, it will have the helicopter icon appear in the unit panel, and the right-click menu options for the unit. Click embark, move the unit, and then right click disembark. Alternatively, you can select another unit and the first one will automatically disembark.

About the 200 KM limit. There are Helicopters with a greater range. Is it possible to change this limt?

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Post #: 3

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/7/2007 9:30:57 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
About the 200 KM limit. There are Helicopters with a greater range. Is it possible to change this limt?

The way the code is written, the limit is not differentiated by equipment type. Therefore, to change the limit, ALL helicopters would then meet the new limit. I don't think that the limit necessarily represents the upper range limit of any particular transport helicopters, but rather an acceptable operational limit based on doctrine. Sure, some special force units in small quantities might make deeper insertions, but for general large-scale operations, I think the limit should be fairly restricted as enemy AS and AA defenses could shred a slow moving, large scale force as it lumbered across increasingly greater distances - particularly if the path was over enemy territory.

(in reply to Jo van der Pluym)

Post #: 4

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/8/2007 8:38:04 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
About the 200 KM limit. There are Helicopters with a greater range. Is it possible to change this limt?

The way the code is written, the limit is not differentiated by equipment type. Therefore, to change the limit, ALL helicopters would then meet the new limit. I don't think that the limit necessarily represents the upper range limit of any particular transport helicopters, but rather an acceptable operational limit based on doctrine. Sure, some special force units in small quantities might make deeper insertions, but for general large-scale operations, I think the limit should be fairly restricted as enemy AS and AA defenses could shred a slow moving, large scale force as it lumbered across increasingly greater distances - particularly if the path was over enemy territory.

Still -- this is similar to the flaw with conventional airborne movement. The ranges can get totally unrealistic, depending on the scale, the era, and the type of equipment available.

I usually work with Ju-52's. For some scenarios, the figures can be reasonable -- either that, or it's academic, as the whole map is within Ju-52 range. On the other hand, with Jeremy's Fall Grau the scale leads to some truly awesome jumps, and for my Operation Orient I'm definitely going to need some house rules.

It shouldn't be too hard to at least make these values adjustable by event -- even if we can't have actual transport units.

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Post #: 5

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/8/2007 6:16:36 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Still -- this is similar to the flaw with conventional airborne movement. The ranges can get totally unrealistic, depending on the scale, the era, and the type of equipment available.

I usually work with Ju-52's. For some scenarios, the figures can be reasonable -- either that, or it's academic, as the whole map is within Ju-52 range. On the other hand, with Jeremy's Fall Grau the scale leads to some truly awesome jumps, and for my Operation Orient I'm definitely going to need some house rules.

It shouldn't be too hard to at least make these values adjustable by event -- even if we can't have actual transport units.

Actually, its different. Helicopter transfer ranges are fixed at 200km, regardless of turn interval. While we could argue about the exact figure to use, the principle is sound.

Airborne ranges, on the other hand, are based upon movement allowances, so they rise and fall with turn interval. This is obviously incorrect. The range should be independent of turn interval. They should be like the combat ranges of aircraft, instead of like the movement allowances of aircraft. I've argued elsewhere that airborne ops should be carried out like combat instead of movement, and fixing this factor would be part of that change.

Fall Grau has whole-week turns, so the drop range is equal to how far an air unit could transfer in a week. Obviously, that transfer distance would include multiple stops on the way (no plane stays in the air for a week), and is incorrect for use as a drop range.

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 6

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/8/2007 10:07:28 PM

Shawmut

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From: Boston, MA USA
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Thanks for all the replies. It seems I was redundent as I had missed email notices of prior help.
Yet, I still seem to be hung up on the issue "They won't board the copters. I'll follow through and better 'parse' 11.6.
Thanks all. I was about to scrap the whole game and go back to pre-20th Century activities.

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Post #: 7

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/9/2007 2:15:49 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
...(no plane stays in the air for a week)....

How about that plane that flew around the world....how long was it airborne? Seems like it was about five days or so IIRC.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 8

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/10/2007 7:09:21 AM

Shawmut

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OK. For the second night in a row I'll read (and parse) 11.6. As it is now I feel like Barnums 'sucker born every minute' and I wake up to the same reality every time I approach these damn whirly-birds.
Right now, they serve as a reality - like the American Media. I just send them to a conflict point so they can take great pride and scoff at their own units being killed (because they hogged the useless transports). I can just hear them saying, I acted smart or else I'd be in Iraq. Cute little icons though. (Maybe they could serve as battle tour wagons. They get there empty and the prattle of tourist has no meaning anyway. And...They're not working.)

I will keep trying to grasp this - - just to PO those who are laughing. I'm sure this has to be simpler than I'm finding it.

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Post #: 9

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/10/2007 7:18:29 AM

Shawmut

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Oh, Yes. As to the range? I'm usually just trying to get a unit or a gun across a couple of hexes. No overnight packing needed or expectations of post cards. Maybe it's a union thing. They're required by the icon maker contract to have heloes there. (Can you imagine the clamor if the button-down shirt was done away with. The Garment Workers Union have been living off sewing those little buttons for over a half a century.) Maybe the token helos are the same type of thing.

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Post #: 10

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/10/2007 8:52:38 AM

JAMiAM

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Keep in mind that if you move the transport helos on turn n, you must wait until turn n+1 to use them to transport units.

(in reply to Shawmut)

Post #: 11

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/10/2007 2:50:48 PM

Erik2

Posts: 786
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

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Post #: 12

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/10/2007 8:30:21 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

(in reply to Erik2)

Post #: 13

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/10/2007 10:49:58 PM

Raindem

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Joined: 7/15/2000
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

I'm not at home right now so I can't verify it, but I seem to remember that certain equipment will be be abandoned in airmobile movement. You won't really notice it unless you examine the assigned equipment after landing.

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Post #: 14

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/11/2007 2:22:11 AM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

I'm not at home right now so I can't verify it, but I seem to remember that certain equipment will be be abandoned in airmobile movement. You won't really notice it unless you examine the assigned equipment after landing.

That's correct, and the program will look at the actual weight of the transportable equipment in a unit, to determine if it will get on the planes, or helos. For example, if the capacity existing is 500, a unit weighs 2000, but only 400 of it is air-transportable, the icon will enable for the unit to be airlifted and all the untransportable equipment will be stripped out and returned to on hand inventory if the unit was supplied. It can then later be absorbed into the unit by the normal replacement function each turn.

(in reply to Raindem)

Post #: 15

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/11/2007 11:24:38 AM

Erik2

Posts: 786
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From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
.....
Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

OK, thanks (funny that there are no icons at all with the A designation)
But why isn't the regular Inf (and other similar) icons available for airmobile transport?
I think that Inf should also be able to use airtransports (from airfield to airfield), but I see this needs a bit more programming.

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Post #: 16

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/11/2007 6:39:35 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
.....
Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

OK, thanks (funny that there are no icons at all with the A designation)
But why isn't the regular Inf (and other similar) icons available for airmobile transport?
I think that Inf should also be able to use airtransports (from airfield to airfield), but I see this needs a bit more programming.

LoL Erik! I think you need to get your eyeglass prescription updated. Look at the column of icons from Airborne (p.41) to Glider Antitank (p.42). They all have A superscripts.

(in reply to Erik2)

Post #: 17

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/14/2007 3:48:12 PM

Erik2

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From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
.....
Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

OK, thanks (funny that there are no icons at all with the A designation)
But why isn't the regular Inf (and other similar) icons available for airmobile transport?
I think that Inf should also be able to use airtransports (from airfield to airfield), but I see this needs a bit more programming.

LoL Erik! I think you need to get your eyeglass prescription updated. Look at the column of icons from Airborne (p.41) to Glider Antitank (p.42). They all have A superscripts.

Zooming in a lot helped a bit too, sorry about that

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Post #: 18

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/14/2007 7:10:53 PM

JAMiAM

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No problem. I usually have to bring it up to 100, or 125%, in order to read it well.

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Post #: 19

RE: Transport Helo's, etc. - 5/14/2007 10:20:39 PM

Shawmut

Posts: 84
Joined: 2/29/2004
From: Boston, MA USA
Status: offline

The traffic back and forth on the TransHelo's has been quite helpful, though I'm still not getting the results from my own playing.
However, I feel some reprieve from the feeling of utter stupidity that I had when I find others have experienced the same frustration. Perhaps this is a moment when a tutorial, remediail ... or set, step by step, could be helpful

. I've gone to the Korean campaign and, as well, ventured into early stages of modern conflicts vetting my mistakes.
Of course, it goes without stating that the help of both Matrix and colleagues keeps me trying - very trying as I am - to work it all out.
Thanks all.

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"Power currupts".... But someone must govern!

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Post #: 20

Airborne Failure. - 6/17/2007 11:43:09 PM

Shawmut

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Airborne Failure seems to be my boo-hoo! I've allowed you guys (developers, I guess) the laughs regarding my issue with the "Transport Helo's, etc.". So I just can't use about 10 - 15% of the program. Who gives a damn about that.
So today, using "Market Garden" I found a few airborne units won't land. (Someone during the scrimmaging over the hehlos cited the plane that flew around the world for a few days.) Oh yes, the mouse is clean, all wires are connected and most of the checklist someone will run the damn consumer through has been checked. Even the scenario's weather was checked.
Maybe, I'm missing a patch that has corrected this in the months I've had it. Maybe it's just contempt for the consumer. I'd be more than pleased to find I'm wrong about that.
But, add on the tendency of this game to have little hidden agenda clusters. One game I stopped because of each effort to go to the next item, it homed back to a do-nothing unit whenever I tried to go beyond it; great for ping-pong.
I have read and re-read the manual (in English from whatever the originanl language was) and these issues are not accounted for.
I must submit that I love this game (lest my cynicism obscure the respect I have for all of you who have made the effort to provide and advise), but nothing ruins the joy than to have settled in and then BLAATTT.

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Post #: 21

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 12:18:48 AM

Veers

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If you upload a save file with insturctuions as to exactly what you were trying to do someone (me, if noone else) is surely to take a look and see what is going wrong.

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Post #: 22

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 12:53:48 AM

sapper32

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Have a similar problem in EA with my German paratroops they wont even get on the planes have tried spliting them up moved them to different airfields still no joy,when i first used them in the attack on poland they got on the planes and jumped out unfortunatly they where destroyed on landing,after reconstituting they are now all but usless could not use them in norway or denmark they just sat on an airfeild trying to get on planes with no luck any ideas???

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Post #: 23

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 12:57:02 AM

Veers

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A reconstituted Para Division is simply infantry. If an airborne division dies its ability to conduct airborne operations dies with it, the reconstituted unit will not be able to conduct airborne operations.
Could this be your porblem, as well, Shawmut?

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Post #: 24

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 1:30:29 AM

JAMiAM

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Manual section 9.1.8 Replacements, reads in part:

quote:

Reconstituted Airborne and Glider units will keep their special icons, but are no longer eligible for Airborne Movement.

Note that if one, or more, sub-units of a parent unit have been destroyed and reconstituted, then recombining them will ruin the airborne movement capability for the parent units, as well as all subsequent split sub-units from that parent unit.

(in reply to Veers)

Post #: 25

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 2:35:10 AM

Shawmut

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Many regards for the replies. As those of you who have engaged Market Garden44`, not unlike any other game requiring deployements, there is the panel from which some airborne units deploy. Initially Deploy! Go Into Action!
In turn three one of the units of the 82nd and a unit of the Poles embarks but they do not land.
"Embarked" Sent to landing site. The don't disembark or land. The Polish unit even seems to hang about near its LZ but keeps its transit icon. Oh yes, the engines buzz.
I have considered complications in situ as a conflict may offer and even the weather conditions but to no reasonable account. The route trail seems to waver a bit on its own which led me to think I had missed a hint.

So

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Post #: 26

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 2:38:54 AM

Shawmut

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Again, thanks. I'm trying to recycle airborne. I understand that once feet hit the ground they're infantry. Just getting them on the ground from the embarkation is my problem.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 2:53:57 AM

JAMiAM

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That sounds odd. When you right click the target hex, your embarked airborne unit should automatically fly to the hex, and execute its jump into the hex. Can you duplicate the issue and save the game immediately before trying to move the troublesome units? If so, then please send me the file, along with specific instructions as to which units you are attempting to move and where. Thanks.

Email address is iamjamiam AT yahoo DOT com

(in reply to Shawmut)

Post #: 28

RE: Whislist - 6/18/2007 10:51:10 AM

Jo van der Pluym

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers

A reconstituted Para Division is simply infantry. If an airborne division dies its ability to conduct airborne operations dies with it, the reconstituted unit will not be able to conduct airborne operations.

This is for Matrix Games

Is't not only for airborne units. SF units does not reconstituted. Is it mayby possible in a next update that standard airborne units hold there abilities, SF units can reconstituted. And in the editor this can change to lost abilities, no reconstitution. etc.

Is't also possibility that other units can use transport form airfield to airfield, and use heli transport (not assault) from friendly area to friendly area. Standard is't NI. The scenariodesigner can this change to Yes in the Editor.

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Post #: 29

RE: Airborne Failure. - 6/18/2007 9:19:47 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawmut

Again, thanks.� I'm trying to recycle airborne.� I understand that once feet hit the ground they're infantry.� Just getting them on the ground from the embarkation is my problem.

In case it gets spam blocked, this is cut and pasted from the email reply I sent in response to your file submission:

Hi David,

I'm suspecting that perhaps the problem that you were
having with being unable to drop units was due to
trying to drop an artillery or HQ unit into an
uncontrolled hex. You must first control one of those
hexes before you can drop those two unit types. In
short, anything with a ranged capability listed in the
unit panel, i.e., an "R:num" value.

Regards,
James

(in reply to Shawmut)

Post #: 30

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