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RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 4:58:03 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?


I am interested. But I have yet to have a close look at it. It is on "the list" though. I just made my comment above to indicate that there are still people interested in CHS corrections.

Actually I don't want to play around with China too much, but I do want to improve the accuracy of the OOB if units are in the wrong place, for example, and I am also thinking of reducing the number of Chinese engineers.

Andrew



Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 61
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 5:00:02 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?


I am interested. But I have yet to have a close look at it. It is on "the list" though. I just made my comment above to indicate that there are still people interested in CHS corrections.

Actually I don't want to play around with China too much, but I do want to improve the accuracy of the OOB if units are in the wrong place, for example, and I am also thinking of reducing the number of Chinese engineers.

Andrew



Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...



I agree.


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 62
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 9:47:16 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It would be more germane to post modifications to the RHS data set.


More germane to you, but not me. I am interested in any corrections to the CHS data. Any corrections to the Chinese OOB are very welcome, and will presumably be useful to anyone interested, not just me.

I am still gathering fixes/updates for CHS, even though the next update is still stalled (for now).

Thanks,

Andrew


OK - so you are monitoring still. And that is fine by me. I don't mind if the thread serves more than one mod in the least. But I also am not getting very much of what I asked for - only one unit changed location as a result of this thread.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 63
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 9:52:11 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It would be more germane to post modifications to the RHS data set.


More germane to you, but not me. I am interested in any corrections to the CHS data. Any corrections to the Chinese OOB are very welcome, and will presumably be useful to anyone interested, not just me.

I am still gathering fixes/updates for CHS, even though the next update is still stalled (for now).

Thanks,

Andrew


So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?



I am not sure to whom this question is addressed - but since I am the original poster of the thread it seems it might be me. Since you are quoting Andrew it also might be him. As for myself, I don't know waht Treespider's CHS means in China terms. I do know you were not impressed by my usage of the terms field army and group army - never mind these are universal in Chinese. What does Treespider's CHS China have that might make it helpful to getting a better picture of Chinese forces we don't already have in RHS? Did you add the out year reinforcements? Something else?

In fairness to CHS as it used to be

1) I think it is vastly better than stock

2) I thought it was done by Treespider

3) I think its concept of guerilla units (which were invented by Treespider) is brilliant.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 64
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 9:57:09 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?


I am interested. But I have yet to have a close look at it. It is on "the list" though. I just made my comment above to indicate that there are still people interested in CHS corrections.

Actually I don't want to play around with China too much, but I do want to improve the accuracy of the OOB if units are in the wrong place, for example, and I am also thinking of reducing the number of Chinese engineers.

Andrew



Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K


We added a great deal of mountain terrain in the RHS map system. And note that RHS Level 5 pwhex can be used with CHS maps - so can Level 5 map art. I once studied Chinese Geography (in which I have 3 college credits). China is the size of the USA but much more mountainous - about 60% of the country in mountain in a sense we would not dispute if we saw them. The "Porcupine Mountains" of the Western Upper Pinnensula of Michigan are mere hills by comparison.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 65
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 10:04:52 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Tree:

have you read "China's bitter victory"?


_____________________________


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 66
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 10:12:19 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again


I am not sure to whom this question is addressed - but since I am the original poster of the thread it seems it might be me. Since you are quoting Andrew it also might be him. As for myself, I don't know waht Treespider's CHS means in China terms. I do know you were not impressed by my usage of the terms field army and group army - never mind these are universal in Chinese. What does Treespider's CHS China have that might make it helpful to getting a better picture of Chinese forces we don't already have in RHS? Did you add the out year reinforcements? Something else?

In fairness to CHS as it used to be

1) I think it is vastly better than stock

2) I thought it was done by Treespider

3) I think its concept of guerilla units (which were invented by Treespider) is brilliant.



Yes the original Chinese changes from Stock in CHS were done by Treespider then altered slightly by AB.

Treespider's CHS is a modification of the Chinese in CHS based on playing experience. These chnages include the following:

- addition of c.30 bases to China
- correction of the starting locations of some of the jun....which I refer to as Corps and you refer to as Armies. (I base my usage of Hsu Long-hsuen book and an article on the PLA by Kenneth Allen.) The use of corps allows the Chinese to break down the units if they choose...
- modification of the TO&E. The original CHS work was merely an OOB and locational switch.
- made the Guerillas para-capable to give the Chinese some capablity to reinfiltrate the japanese rear - yes it is a complete workaround because of code limitations
- added 4 large static Guerilla Base Forces to create "safe-havens" for the Chinese in the Japanese rear


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 67
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 10:30:01 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Tree:

have you read "China's bitter victory"?



I should have it on my shelf by tomorrow...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 68
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 10:33:52 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		a good set of essays. Cleared up some of the questions thrown around this forum from time to time. Raised some questions too....but thats China for ya.

_____________________________


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 69
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 10:45:10 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

a good set of essays. Cleared up some of the questions thrown around this forum from time to time. Raised some questions too....but thats China for ya.



Skimming through it on questia...I suppose it would be useful as an overview document...but as with everything I'll take witha grain of salt. Some of the facts I've seen in it within the last few minutes I question based on other sources I have looked at...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 70
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/21/2007 10:50:41 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		every source pretty much must be taken with a grain of salt. Certainly China, the wartime subject, will remain a highly debated one.

_____________________________


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 71
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 1:07:30 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I posted a thread today called "good maps"..Look at it and find some really good maps of China, in detail, including transortation routes of WW2, and MOUNTAINS,RIVERS,etc...

_____________________________




(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 72
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 2:29:50 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...


I assume you mean Yenan (which is called Yenen on the stock map)? OK, I will take a look at the area again. I usually only use mountains for truly mountainous areas (heights > 3000m), so I will probably add some forest - which has to be used for "rough" terrain - if it seems justified.

quote:

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K


OK. I will take a look. I know the area you mean between Greater Mongolia and Manchuria. Regarding the border hex near Vladivostok - do you mean the hex on the Manchuria side, the hexes on the Soviet side, or both?

Thanks,
Andrew

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 73
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 6:54:17 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I posted a thread today called "good maps"..Look at it and find some really good maps of China, in detail, including transortation routes of WW2, and MOUNTAINS,RIVERS,etc...



You mean like these...






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by treespider -- 6/22/2007 6:59:00 AM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 74
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 6:59:45 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Tree:

have you read "China's bitter victory"?




Good book - by an ethnic Chinese academic resident in the USA. I have corresponded with him about more modern matters. He sometimes helps with research.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 75
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 7:02:06 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		-




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 76
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 7:04:06 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again


I am not sure to whom this question is addressed - but since I am the original poster of the thread it seems it might be me. Since you are quoting Andrew it also might be him. As for myself, I don't know waht Treespider's CHS means in China terms. I do know you were not impressed by my usage of the terms field army and group army - never mind these are universal in Chinese. What does Treespider's CHS China have that might make it helpful to getting a better picture of Chinese forces we don't already have in RHS? Did you add the out year reinforcements? Something else?

In fairness to CHS as it used to be

1) I think it is vastly better than stock

2) I thought it was done by Treespider

3) I think its concept of guerilla units (which were invented by Treespider) is brilliant.



Yes the original Chinese changes from Stock in CHS were done by Treespider then altered slightly by AB.

Treespider's CHS is a modification of the Chinese in CHS based on playing experience. These chnages include the following:

- addition of c.30 bases to China
- correction of the starting locations of some of the jun....which I refer to as Corps and you refer to as Armies. (I base my usage of Hsu Long-hsuen book and an article on the PLA by Kenneth Allen.) The use of corps allows the Chinese to break down the units if they choose...
- modification of the TO&E. The original CHS work was merely an OOB and locational switch.
- made the Guerillas para-capable to give the Chinese some capablity to reinfiltrate the japanese rear - yes it is a complete workaround because of code limitations
- added 4 large static Guerilla Base Forces to create "safe-havens" for the Chinese in the Japanese rear



I think we may have moved in similar directions by entirely different means. I used mountains in particular to make things more defensible, and improved the logistical areas so the economy will function in a number of areas - and made guerillas almost supply independent - larger in organization - and because we have smaller heavy weapons than other mods - we were able to give them mortars and machine guns as well. I don't see any particular need to divide up Chinese units - there are so many - but divisions of course can do that as well. I am now considering combining the divisions up - to gain slots - IF we end up needing any. Turns out no one is posting even a single ID of a missing unit.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 77
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 7:07:57 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

a good set of essays. Cleared up some of the questions thrown around this forum from time to time. Raised some questions too....but thats China for ya.



Skimming through it on questia...I suppose it would be useful as an overview document...but as with everything I'll take witha grain of salt. Some of the facts I've seen in it within the last few minutes I question based on other sources I have looked at...


Current scholarship WILL cast doube on PAST scholarship. But remember, the new guys have access to archives not previously available. First ROC released theirs. Now PRC has release some. And also Japan has published its official history - which China scholars read a good deal more than Western ones because they can do so more easily Lots of things in the older materials are now - at least - supplimented by more and different information. Often you can not reconcile views from the opposing side - and "the" is the wrong term sometimes - as it was sometimes "several" - but at least you have options now. By and large the new scholar ship is much better - in the sense of more complete as well as less partisan. Time being distant, the current writers do not have as many poilitical axes to grind.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 78
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 4:52:14 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...


I assume you mean Yenan (which is called Yenen on the stock map)? OK, I will take a look at the area again. I usually only use mountains for truly mountainous areas (heights > 3000m), so I will probably add some forest - which has to be used for "rough" terrain - if it seems justified.

quote:

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K


OK. I will take a look. I know the area you mean between Greater Mongolia and Manchuria. Regarding the border hex near Vladivostok - do you mean the hex on the Manchuria side, the hexes on the Soviet side, or both?

Thanks,
Andrew



Yes, was talking about Yenan (many spellings possible). Only heights > 3000m as mountains? In some places heights > 3000m would be inaccessible, while in other places not (just to give an example: Italy is quite mountaineous but the mountain ranges on the peninsula are mostly not very high; the Monte Cassino: 516m..., the Corno Grande as highest peak of the Gran Sasso d'Italia: 2,912m). Iwo Jima is mountain terrain in WITP but Mount Suribachi is 166m high.

The border hexes are 63/32, 64/32, 65/32. Not sure about 64/31 because it contains a big city (Mutankiang)

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 79
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 5:31:23 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Only heights > 3000m as mountains? In some places heights > 3000m would be inaccessible, while in other places not (just to give an example: Italy is quite mountaineous but the mountain ranges on the peninsula are mostly not very high; the Monte Cassino: 516m..., the Corno Grande as highest peak of the Gran Sasso d'Italia: 2,912m). Iwo Jima is mountain terrain in WITP but Mount Suribachi is 166m high.


Well, I can't actually remember whether I used 3000m or 2500m. One of the two. But I need to use some sort of criteria - the alternative is to asses every potential mountain hex on the map individually to determine how rugged it is, which isn't really an option.

There needs to be a "rough" hex type, which would be, say x2 defence. In the absence of such a thing I have to use "forest" to represent areas of rough terrain that are not coded as mountains. I don't actually think Iwo Jima should be a mountain hex.

Andrew

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 80
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 6:24:06 PM   
timtom


Posts: 2358
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Only heights > 3000m as mountains? In some places heights > 3000m would be inaccessible, while in other places not (just to give an example: Italy is quite mountaineous but the mountain ranges on the peninsula are mostly not very high; the Monte Cassino: 516m..., the Corno Grande as highest peak of the Gran Sasso d'Italia: 2,912m). Iwo Jima is mountain terrain in WITP but Mount Suribachi is 166m high.



I would agree. By this definition there's no mountains in Scandinavia or Britain, nor are the Appalachians a mountain range.


< Message edited by timtom -- 6/22/2007 6:25:06 PM >

_____________________________

Where's the Any key?


(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 81
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 7:19:58 PM   
Badnews


Posts: 88
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: China
Status: offline 		"Blood War 43-46" with fully new Chinese OOB has done.
It is checking and testing by my friends now, and will relesed in few days.

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 82
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 7:29:12 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...


I assume you mean Yenan (which is called Yenen on the stock map)? OK, I will take a look at the area again. I usually only use mountains for truly mountainous areas (heights > 3000m), so I will probably add some forest - which has to be used for "rough" terrain - if it seems justified.

quote:

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K


OK. I will take a look. I know the area you mean between Greater Mongolia and Manchuria. Regarding the border hex near Vladivostok - do you mean the hex on the Manchuria side, the hexes on the Soviet side, or both?

Thanks,
Andrew



Yes, was talking about Yenan (many spellings possible). Only heights > 3000m as mountains? In some places heights > 3000m would be inaccessible, while in other places not (just to give an example: Italy is quite mountaineous but the mountain ranges on the peninsula are mostly not very high; the Monte Cassino: 516m..., the Corno Grande as highest peak of the Gran Sasso d'Italia: 2,912m). Iwo Jima is mountain terrain in WITP but Mount Suribachi is 166m high.

The border hexes are 63/32, 64/32, 65/32. Not sure about 64/31 because it contains a big city (Mutankiang)



I must concur with Kereguelen: what makes mountainous terrain mountainous is how rough it is, not how high it is.
By Alaska standards, few places have mountains at all. [The largest sheer rock cliff in the world is the Wickersham Wall on what we call Denali and what most people think of as Mt McKinley - nothing in the Hemalayas or Andes comes close.
But what matters for us is two different standards:

a) How much does the terrain inhibit movement?

b) How much does the terrain contribute to the defense?

By that standard, ANY terrain that is severe is "mountains" - just as Andrew (and presumably Matrix) uses "forest" to mean "lower mountains" or "less severely restricted than mountainous t errain").

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 83
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/22/2007 8:21:08 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

-





awesome maps Treespider!


_____________________________




(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 84
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/23/2007 2:00:01 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I must concur with Kereguelen: what makes mountainous terrain mountainous is how rough it is, not how high it is.
By Alaska standards, few places have mountains at all. [The largest sheer rock cliff in the world is the Wickersham Wall on what we call Denali and what most people think of as Mt McKinley - nothing in the Hemalayas or Andes comes close.
But what matters for us is two different standards:

a) How much does the terrain inhibit movement?

b) How much does the terrain contribute to the defense?

By that standard, ANY terrain that is severe is "mountains" - just as Andrew (and presumably Matrix) uses "forest" to mean "lower mountains" or "less severely restricted than mountainous t errain").


I don't agree that all rugged terrain should be treated equally and have a x3 defence. I prefer to have a graduated scale - with a "rugged" terrain type which provides x2 (which I have to use forest for as there is no real "rugged" terrain type) and use "mountain" (x3) for truly difficult mountainous terrain.

I do not accept that the Appalachians are as difficult to operate in as the Himalaya.

Andrew



(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 85
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/23/2007 2:03:37 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom
I would agree. By this definition there's no mountains in Scandinavia or Britain, nor are the Appalachians a mountain range.


My definition is not intended to specify what is a mountain - it is intended to provide a scale of difficulty in game terms. I don't think that the British and Scandanavian mountains are as difficult to move through as the Himalaya or the Tibetan plateau, and so should not incur the same movement penalties.

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 86
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/23/2007 6:42:23 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I must concur with Kereguelen: what makes mountainous terrain mountainous is how rough it is, not how high it is.
By Alaska standards, few places have mountains at all. [The largest sheer rock cliff in the world is the Wickersham Wall on what we call Denali and what most people think of as Mt McKinley - nothing in the Hemalayas or Andes comes close.
But what matters for us is two different standards:

a) How much does the terrain inhibit movement?

b) How much does the terrain contribute to the defense?

By that standard, ANY terrain that is severe is "mountains" - just as Andrew (and presumably Matrix) uses "forest" to mean "lower mountains" or "less severely restricted than mountainous t errain").


I don't agree that all rugged terrain should be treated equally and have a x3 defence. I prefer to have a graduated scale - with a "rugged" terrain type which provides x2 (which I have to use forest for as there is no real "rugged" terrain type) and use "mountain" (x3) for truly difficult mountainous terrain.

I do not accept that the Appalachians are as difficult to operate in as the Himalaya.

Andrew






It actually depends. There are places in Appalachia you are severely restricted by mountain, gorge, river, etc.
And there are places in the Himalayas you have broad flood plains and even developed lines of communications.
I regret to say this - because it implies lots of work - but there is no substitute for hex by hex consideration - at least along the main LOC.

I do not really disagree with Andrew as much as it might appear - I think some forms of "mountains" should appear as "forest" in our system. But having both studied Chinese geography and traveled in China, I believe it has a lot more terrain even he would classify as "mountain" than appears on the CHS map. In fact - I don't think RHS has enough mountains - but I have been too lazy to do more than put in the really really big ones.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 87
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/23/2007 6:43:44 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom
I would agree. By this definition there's no mountains in Scandinavia or Britain, nor are the Appalachians a mountain range.


My definition is not intended to specify what is a mountain - it is intended to provide a scale of difficulty in game terms. I don't think that the British and Scandanavian mountains are as difficult to move through as the Himalaya or the Tibetan plateau, and so should not incur the same movement penalties.



Certainly there are mountains in Scandanavia as forbidding as anything in Alaska (the most forbidding in the world) or the Himalaya (the second most forbidding). It isn't the height alone that is the issue.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 88
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/23/2007 6:54:14 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Nobody is going to convince me the Chu Poungs were not "mountains".
(Pardon the spelling)..

_____________________________




(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 89
RE: China Expert Appeal - 6/23/2007 8:21:47 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Certainly there are mountains in Scandanavia as forbidding as anything in Alaska (the most forbidding in the world) or the Himalaya (the second most forbidding).


Certainly there are examples. But that there are examples of difficult terrain there is not the issue. The issue is how difficult the entire area is to traverse, on average, considering the scale of the game. Then you need to decide on where to draw the line in the scale of difficulty - from the Himalaya at one end of the scale to, say, the English Lake District at the other end of the scale.

quote:

It isn't the height alone that is the issue.


Indeed it isn't. I simply use altitude as a guide, as I have already stated.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 90
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