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Playtesters? - 7/1/2007 6:54:01 PM

Prince of Eckmühl
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The game credits cite the members of the playtest crew. Are any of you fellas out there?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 2:46:47 AM

Rob Gjessing
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Most of them hang out at the Run5/SSG forums rather then here.

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 2:53:08 AM

RedMike
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Yeah...why?

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 4:36:54 AM

JSS
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I see a healthy portion of us here too.

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 5:21:34 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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First, hello, and thanks for responding.

I inquired because there's a lot of uncertainty as to how long it takes to perform certain tasks, arming a/c for instance. Do you guys know of any documentation that we (players) can get our hands on that might clear some of this up? Again, the rest of us have no way of knowing what's going on with the internals of the game as so many of these particulars failed to find their way into the game manual. Even if no such documentation exists, I'll just about guarantee you that new players would welcome your insights into the game.

Thanks again,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 6:49:29 AM

e_barkmann
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I'm not aware of any available documentation about internal routines so it's probably best to ask those kind of questions directly to SSG.

cheers

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 8:29:07 PM

Richard III
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They also seem to be playing a different, bug free, well documented version of CAW and those of us here.......

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/2/2007 9:37:55 PM

Oleg Mastruko
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And they played each scenario like once, vs AI

(No need to answer.)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 1:24:53 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

And they played each scenario like once, vs AI

(No need to answer.)

Hey, don't go hatin' on the playtest brothers!

Seriously, there's no telling when last it was that any of them touched the game. And everyone would do good to recall that the forum was an unhappy place for months before the game was released because so many members insisted that THE GAME WAS TAKING TOO LONG TO COMPLETE!

If anyone's to blame for the state of the game that I purchased for $59.95+s/h

http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec_Main.Entry17c?SID=45905&SP=10023&CID=0&PID=925009&PN=1&V1=925009&CUR=840&DSP=&PGRP=0&ABCODE=&CACHE_ID=0

It's likely NOT the play-testers.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 1:41:51 AM

Oleg Mastruko
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

And they played each scenario like once, vs AI

(No need to answer.)

Hey, don't go hatin' on the playtest brothers!

LOL

You're right, lets all be friends

Playtesting can be very ungrateful process, I know, but honestly I cannot imagine a wargame that is EASIER to test than CAW. I can literally play thru ALL scenarios in about two hours, and that's without cutting any corners, real serious play. Compare testing CAW to testing, say, WITP, where you need months of real time to finish half the campaign.

(I played several AI vs AI tests in WITP, on my office PC during the nights and weekends - it took around 6-7 days for PC working 24/7 to finish a game!)

CAW is a good game. It oughta have been tested more thoroughly in MP environment, and in all honesty, should have been priced lower for what meager content it offers. Some improvements over the old CAW would be welcome as well (see my threads Speed and Bombardment) just so we see it's not a carbon copy design. Other than that, no complaints from me (even though those are pretty substantial complaints).

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 2:18:55 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Playtesting can be very ungrateful process, I know, but honestly I cannot imagine a wargame that is EASIER to test than CAW.

Oleg, I understand your sarcasm, but I don't think that you get it. YES, many of the broken parts of the game do sorta JUMP off the screen at you, but that doesn't mean that the play-testers were in any position to catch the stuff. They may not have touched the game for months or years before it arrived on our desktops. It also might be that there was a patch in the works before the game even shipped, one that wasn't applied because it would have postponed payday for the developer. Did you ever consider those possibilities?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 2:38:33 AM

Rob Gjessing
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Couple of comments and responses here:

- The testers mostly hang out at the SSG/Run5 website because thats the official SSG website and we are SSG testers. But as JSS mentioned, some do also read and post on these forums.

- If there was any internal documenation then we would not be allowed to release it without the support of SSG; so as Chris points out you are best to direct those questions to SSG.

- Re the comments about the quality of testing that occured on this or any other game. Testers are simply that - testers. We may make recommendations and provide feedback but we dont have any power of veto nor are responsible for design decisions, so dont blame any testers for any failings you may or may not think that there are with this or any other games.

< Message edited by Rob Gjessing -- 7/3/2007 3:09:47 AM >

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 3:07:32 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Gjessing

Couple of comments and responses here:

- The testers mostly hang out at the SSG/Run5 website because thats the official SSG website and we are SSG testers. But as JSS mentioned, some do also read and post on these forums.

- If there was any internal documenation then we would now be allowed to release it without the support of SSG; so as Chris points out you are best to direct those questions to SSG.

- Re the comments about the quality of testing that occured on this or any other game. Testers are simply that - testers. We may make recommendations and provide feedback but we dont have any power of veto nor are responsible for design decisions, so dont blame any testers for any failings you may or may not think that there are with this or any other games.

Well, Oleg, its a fine mess you've made of things this time.

First you kill Hamachi and then you disconnect us from any meaningful interpretation of CaW's otherwise inscrutable game routines.

Gloom, despair and agony on you!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 3:12:01 AM

MarkShot
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Beta testing ... now there is a topic that I know something about and I also happen to work in the software industry:

(1) Arrangements between developers/publishers/testers vary incredibly between one situation to the next. In some cases, testers are strictly that and are largely ignored by the developers. In other cases, testers a very much involved in the design and evolution of the product. Their responsibilities extend to everything short of writing code such as: research, scenario design, tutorials, writing manuals, etc...

(2) The approach to recruiting testers can be very rigid and formal involving NCA, NDA, handing out task lists, due dates, assignments, and hours required. In fact, I was connected with one developer where it seemed like I just accepted employment (without pay) for a job that was a mistake. And other developers, just give you access to a private area with no paperwork to sign and say "here play it and have fun; let us know what you think and if there are any problems". Some developer lose 50% of their team with each project due to burn out and others have members with them 5 years or more, since they understand the special needs of managing volunteers.

(3) You have the testers themselves. Some are incredibly motivated and work 20 hours/week without pay, because they simply love the game engine or the subject matter. Others barely do more than install the game and it was just an ego trip to get early look at the game or see their name in the credits. Some bring incredible skills of amateur or professional historians to a team, others bring years of gaming experience, others bring familiarity with software projects and product development, and other bring experience writing and developing guides and training materials. The smart developer/publisher learns to assemble a team of varied talent and create a culture where individual talents emerge and are fully utilized; and that turn over is reduced or minimized.

(4) The manner in how is game is tested is equally varied. What do testers test and who do they choose it? 90% of the time, the test team are the ones who know the engine best and are your hardcore grog players. It is no wonder that easy and basic options for games receive very poor testing coverage. Additionally, the testers often fail to do obviously stupid and counter productive things that noobs do, because they know the game. So, CTDs which commonly occurs when the game go gold may have never been seen before.

(5) If a game engine/scenario creator allows for a lot of randomness, then it is very hard to compare that changes from introduced in the game play from one build to the next. How much is normal randomness and how much is new code? How good has the developer designed their product for testing anyway? Are their tools just for beta testers to use? Tools that lift the FOW or provide deeper insights (execution logs) into the AI behavior than the customer will see? Or are beta testers getting now more access to the internals than the customer and just being depended on to make better inferences due to their greater experience? Does the developer of automated testing facilities/harnesses for the game and test suite to rapidly test any new builds?

---

I could go on. Software development is one of the most complex engineering endeavors undertaken by the human race. Independent game development is often done on shoe string budgets with volunteers who like the customers have spouses, children, parents, jobs, and other committments. Most of the game developers I have personally known are doing it more for simply the love and passion of the artform than for any intention to get rich or build a highly profitable business. For if most developers who are talented enough to build complex wargames really wanted to be financial successes, they would well choose another line of work. For me, this is why I have only beta tested. I am much too focused on my personal financial security to throw all caution to the wind.

So, our hobby is filled with too many crappy and poorly designed games. It is also filled with too many games which are atrociously buggy. It is filled with too many developers/publishers who never really finish/fix the product that they release. This is all true. But given the chances of making any money at this, we enjoy playing these games should be thankful that anyone is foolish enough to try this line of work at all. And that anyone who enjoys playing such games would give up their personal free time to step through CTD after CTD and document the exact conditions to reproduce rather than having a fun time to do something else.

---

Well, I hope that gives a little insight to what goes on behind the scenes with those "inept" developers and "bumbling" beta testers. Thanks for reading.

Disclosure: I am not a beta tester for SSG and anything which I said above that bears and resemblance to SSG or any other company is purely accidental.

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 3:27:38 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

90% of the time, the test team are the ones who know the engine best and are your hardcore grog players.

I just wanted to comment on this point from MarkShot's excellent post, above.

Developing a full-featured game is such an enormous task that the essential personnel in the project, artists, designers and programmer, often have NO time to actually play the game. Because of this, the package can get away from those central figures. They are so focused on the minutiae of bringing all the parts together, that they simply lose track of what's going on with the "big-picture," and, in particular, with how the game plays. IF THEY TRUST THEIR TESTERS, they'll make in-course corrections as they proceed. If not, the end-user can wind up with hash on his hands.

Again, nice post MarkShot,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 3:52:11 AM

JD Walter
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Thanks for the insight, MarkShot.

I negotiate contracts for a major corporation, and am surprised at the similarities in drawing up a fair, balanced, well-written (i.e., not subject to two different, equally valid interpretations) corpus of terms and conditions, with what you describe above.

From time to time I think about re-entering the game biz ( I was an initial investor & playtester in ICE), but realize I have limited experience in the computer-side of it, and am probably best as a player, not a tester.

(But I am good at documentation!)

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:08:35 AM

GoodGuy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

one that wasn't applied because it would have postponed payday for the developer. Did you ever consider those possibilities?

Well, I think I just spotted your first hmm less bright statement. I, as a customer, have no sympathy for that kinda situation. That might be cruel, but can be explained easily: If you go to a store and let's say you buy milk, you don't want to find out that the product you just bought turns out to be adulterated milk once you open it at home, although the "best before" seal made you think it was fresh milk, right?

You trust your fav store that it stocked the milk correctly, and you trust the transport company that they turn on the cooling devices on their trucks during the transport. Also, you would not accept an excuse from the producer, like "hey, but we did test the milk before it left our dairy facility, so we're not part of the deal anymore".

Product liability laws in Europe use to grant the right to return products that are missing advertized features or which are featuring malfunctions. Funny thing is, this is valid for fridges, radios, mp3 players and what not, but (here in Germany for example) once you've opened a sealed game/software box, stores won't take it back to give a refund. If you get loud (so that other customers would hear it) and if you quote a few law paragraphs some stores might give in, but they would just give you a voucher to purchase another game.
Some day a customer will go to court for some "lousy" (in lawyers + courts' views) 50 bucks, and fight for the right to get bug-free software. I am sure.

I accept your point where you said ppl were trying to force the release in the forums, but I wouldn't accept the "payday" deal as a criterion for not applying vital fixes prior to release. In fact, I couldn't care less about a dev's payday (even if developers are tiny companies or even one or two-man-shows only, like in this niche-market), as I've got the right to get a thoroughly tested / solid programmed piece of software for my money, in my books.

Oh, last but not least, humans (programmers in this case) aren't perfect, they do make mistakes, sure.... understandable.
But if the fridge I just purchased has a malfunction, I get a new one within 24 hrs, or the store who sells it has the right to repair it (up to 3 times in Europe), before the seller has to grant a refund. Well, that's still faster than months with a series of patches for many games these days. Oh yes, software is more complex than a simple fridge, but if a software company (like let's say EA) with fully fledged Q/A divisions isn't able to test/verify things, quite frankly, it should produce/sell fridges.....

Any other company (that's not in the software business) has to deal with that pressure on the market. Software companies still get away with their "there are so many possible hardware combinations, we can't test it on all possible combos"-excuses. It's about sloppy programming, rushed out games and about bad testing procedures (lack of time to test a given product, too) in most cases.
The majority of console games are relatively bug-free, as there are less chances to patch things. The amounts of bugs in such games is one of the major factors which determine success or failure on the consoles. And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that console games contain more and more bugs these days. :)

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 7/3/2007 4:50:55 AM >

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:18:43 AM

e_barkmann
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well for my part I concentrated on testing multiplayer stability/functionality late in the dev cycle, and there was certainly a lot of attention paid to this by SSG. Happy to answer questions on this aspect

cheers

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:19:25 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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Hi GoodGuy,

I'm perfectly willing to accept the notion that some of my comments are "less than bright," but the fact of the matter remains that the developer and publisher are responsible for the quality of the product that we purchased, not the play-testers. If I strike you as overly sympathetic to their plight, it's because they are as grossly overworked as they are woefully under-compensated. As for my suggestion that a patch might have been in the works prior to the game's release, it is but one of myriad possibilities which might explain the state of CaW as I have known it, one that takes a little tar off of the testers.

Thanks for your comments,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 7/3/2007 4:46:40 AM >

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:24:08 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

well for my part I concentrated on testing multiplayer stability/functionality late in the dev cycle, and there was certainly a lot of attention paid to this by SSG. Happy to answer questions on this aspect

cheers

Hi Chris,

When playing online, are both players file-sets used to set the parameters for the game, or just the host?

PoE

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:32:12 AM

e_barkmann
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just the host, so a saved game will be transferred from host to client upon loadup, and pretty sure this applies to scenarios where a mis match occurs too.

cheers

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RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:37:44 AM

GoodGuy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

...but the fact of the matter remains that the developer and publisher are responsible for the quality of the product that we purchased, not the play-testers.

Oh yes, my "pleading" wasn't meant as bashing of play-testers. The testers are supposed to be led/managed by the dev, and it's the dev who has to direct things, besides the testers reporting about findings additionally/along the way. I do work in the localization business, so I know what/why things can go wrong.

quote:

...... because they are as grossly overworked as they are woefully under-compensated.

yepyep. In this niche-market, it's even mostly about "0" compensation, besides getting a copy of the release version.

quote:

As for my suggestion that a patch might have been in the works prior to the game's release, it is but one of myriad possibilities which might explain...

I know.

I just don't accept this particular reason.

Btw, my post above was meant to be a general statement, not aimed at SSG in particular, but at the software industry in general. Keep it up POE :P

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 7/3/2007 4:54:34 AM >

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December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
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8th of August, 2006

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Post #: 22

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 4:39:51 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

just the host, so a saved game will be transferred from host to client upon loadup, and pretty sure this applies to scenarios where a mis match occurs too.

cheers

At the risk of deepening GoodGuy's suspicions about my wiring,

I'm gonna ask if you could elaborate on the meaning of the term "mis match" and any impact that it might have on the ensuing game.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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Post #: 23

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 5:05:28 AM

MarkShot
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I have stated elsewhere that I think game play and AI of games produced in the early 1990s was generally superior to what passes for the same in the late 2000s.

Another thing which I firmly believe is that software quality (for all types of software not just games) of games has suffered greatly as the Internet became established on a new medium within society.

The Internet has contributed greatly to our hobby:

(1) Small independent developers can reach their niche market to sell their product where in the past they would have never had a hope of finding a publisher or shelf space.

(2) Communities of like of common interested players can form across international borders, regions, and other demographics.

(3) Modders and scenario designers can produce content for game engines that effectively give them life way beyond what the original development team/publisher intended.

(4) The development of point #3 along with cheaper CPU cycles, memory, and disk storage has resulted in the data structures of many games being moved out of the EXE to separate files. And in many cases, these files are plain text files. The games of the early 1990s saw more of the core game hardcoded in the EXE and data files even when used where usually tightly encoded binary data that required a great deal more skills to manipulate than NOTEPAD.

But the Internet has at same time hurt our hobby. Software quality has degraded and continues to do so:

(1) Product cycles were reduced and competition was increased. All of a sudden everyone is working on an ACW game. First, let's face it there are only so many historical epics worthy of mass marketting. If one party senses money to be made, then they all do. The race begins to be out the door first and hit Q3/Q4 where the money is. The difference between first and second place can be the difference between moving on to the next game or financial insolvency. So, the pressure is very real. Good companies will have experience project management and know how to cut features such that they make their deadlines while still delivering a worthwhile project. Poor companies will be overwhelmed and cut corners in a haphazard fashion and release a can of worms. Customers will be burned. There will be a bad taste. If customers are lucky, Q1 and Q2 will be used to fix the game and the rest of the less serious issues will be addressed by the modders.

Microsoft Windows and the Internet started a trend in the software industry of accelerated project schedules. Projects moved from carefully planned giants that were build on computers costing millions to things hacked together on Monday to show users and investors on Friday. The trend really started when Microsoft released Windows 3.0 and Visual Basic 1.0. This began it for those of us who worked in the industry. In 1995, when the Web overshadowed the release of Windows 95, the Internet brought accelerated software development schedules through quick visual mock-ups to the business world at large and not just IT departments.

I've said a lot. But the basic point is that the gaming industry suffers the same pressures that any other forms of software development suffer.

(2) The Internet has made code defects (bugs) appear to be very cheap and inexpensive. In 1987, getting fixes out to customers was a very expensive proposition. It involved distributions of tapes and other physical media. It was hugely expensive and much more cost effective to simply kill the bugs before shipping your product. By 1997, the major vendors all had FTP servers and it had become cheap to just throw patches up on the servers and let customers retrieve them. (Of course, this began before the Internet with the first BBS modem services.) The intense discipline of testing and quality assurance faded away during the 1990s, since the penalties and pressures which created that culture dissappeared.

So, it was with the gaming industry. In the early 1990s, a game with major bugs got bad press. It could not be easily fixed. The product would not move and money and time was lost. Minor bugs and enhancements tended to be addressed through expansion packs that were both patches and additional content add-ons. However, in the late 1990s and problems with a game could be fixed by the customers patching themselves at any time. Zero cost for bugs (so no pressure enforcing a culture of quality) while (see above) lots of pressure forcing fast and slopy work to market. As has been noted in this thread, it has become standard practice simply release unworkable code as version 1.00 and fast track a patch waiting for the game to reach the store shelves.

Clear and simple, it is the Internet which has created this situation. However, as I have demonstrated, there are also wonderful gains which have come about via the Internet too. Also, it is not only the developers/publishers who are to blame for atrocious software quality. We, the customers, are to blame as well. We regularly pre-order games, download them immediately, drive to stores to get them, ... We purchase these products before waiting to see if they are solid. We just assume that any critical problems will be fixed and we are entitled to these fixes. If we did not behave as we do, those who produce games would not behave as they do. So, our buying patterns are also very much to blame for this. At best, reputable companies ultimately fix their products. Other companies, simply abandon them.

This explains why I just got a new PC, but for the most part every game on my PC with one or two exceptions was published at least two years earlier. By now, the game is either worth having or it is not. In 2009, I will probably be purchasing quite a few titles from 2007. :)

As long as I am handing out blame, then the gaming community review web sites are to blame too. Very few of them will really expose a game as unplayable pile of CTDs and bugs. Very few of them will bury a product for being a cinch to beat after only a few days worth of play experience. So many of these sites are whores who are in bed with the products they are responsible for objectively reviewing. They are not consumer advocates, but in fact just extensions of the marketting apparatus of the industry. Look at some games which are a few years old that are widely known to be only mediocre. Now, go back and look at the reviews which they games received a few years back. For the vast majority, the review will relect a much more upbeat assesment than the product actually deserved.

---

I realize that some of what I have said here may not be in all the best interests of increased sales for my friends at Matrix. However, I was trying to paint a picture of an industry and history in broadstrokes. This not meant as a criticism of any one party, but once again an attempt to talk of historical trends and underlying causes that has shaped these events.

_____________________________

(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)

Post #: 24

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 5:31:28 AM

e_barkmann
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

At the risk of deepening GoodGuy's suspicions about my wiring, I'm gonna ask if you could elaborate on the meaning of the term "mis match" and any impact that it might have on the ensuing game.

Alex could elaborate here, but the game routines check the integrity of scenario data (and game version) prior to commencing the game on both machines, to eliminate crashes due to bad data mismatches.

cheers

_____________________________

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Post #: 25

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 5:32:19 AM

GoodGuy
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

In 1987, getting fixes out to customers was a very expensive proposition. It involved distributions of tapes and other physical media. It was hugely expensive and much more cost effective to simply kill the bugs before shipping your product.

Well, in fact, these type of fixes were reserved to commercial customers/companies, where big amounts of money and/or possible claims for recourse were involved. These fixes did not reach / involve the end-user. Somewhere between 1989/1991 German and British Amiga magazines (these covered software applications, OS's etc, not games) started to release fixes on their cover (floppy!!!) disks, most notably for programming tools and audio/DTP software, as these programs were on a way higher level than games, price-wise. So this procedure started even earlier than some may think (= yrs before the internet was widely used/accessible). Given, fixes were rare and rarely needed.

quote:

So many of these sites are whores who are in bed with the products they are responsible for objectively reviewing. They are not consumer advocates, but in fact just extensions of the marketting apparatus of the industry. Look at some games which are a few years old that are widely known to be only mediocre. Now, go back and look at the reviews which they games received a few years back. For the vast majority, the review will relect a much more upbeat assesment than the product actually deserved.

Well, it's even worse with some game mags (print). There was a scandal here in Germany (this year or last year, can't remember), where an online mag thought it should mutate to some investigative magazine, publishing a letter or fax that seemed to prove that some print mag received bucks (and additional orders for expensive ads in that same mag) from a major software company for a good review of a major title. While that online mag failed to come up with more supporting evidence, I am pretty sure that there is some "match fixing" in the industry, if I'm reading through certain reviews.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 7/3/2007 5:55:54 AM >

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to MarkShot)

Post #: 26

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 5:48:47 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

So many of these sites are whores who are in bed with the products they are responsible for objectively reviewing. They are not consumer advocates, but in fact just extensions of the marketting apparatus of the industry.

One of the least understood practices within the gaming media is the renting out of reviewers to help market a publisher's games. It's a straight-up, fee-for-service relationship. I'm aware of at least one quid pro quo arrangement in which a "journalist" was offered a stake in a fledgling development house in return for helping market its first game. When I read some of the stuff that's written about computer games, I can't help but be reminded of the old Jefferson adage, "The most truthful part of the newspapers is the advertisements." It would be more respectful of the readership were these publications to simply label them as such.

Let's go find some bugs!!!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

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Post #: 27

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 5:57:16 AM

MarkShot
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline

Moe,

Where do I sign up for such work? I could use some extra money as I just order 25 ppm single pass color laser printer network ready with duplex for my business today. Of course, it will also do a splendid job at printing out color PDF game manuals which are getting common place these days. I am getting on in years and the ole all-in-one color inkjet has been driving me towards senility! :)

_____________________________

(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)

Post #: 28

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 5:59:47 AM

GoodGuy
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Let's go find some bugs!!!

No, I don't wanna find any bugs. I want a bug-free environment. *GG stomping on the ground like a lil kid*

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)

Post #: 29

RE: Playtesters? - 7/3/2007 6:14:59 AM

Prince of Eckmühl
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Moe,

Where do I sign up for such work? I could use some extra money as I just order 25 ppm single pass color laser printer network ready with duplex for my business today. Of course, it will also do a splendid job at printing out color PDF game manuals which are getting common place these days. I am getting on in years and the ole all-in-one color inkjet has been driving me towards senility! :)

Speaking as someone who wants to see you leave this world emotionally whole and as genuine a person as you seem, I'd suggest sticking with you're daytime job. There's something heeling about having endured an honest-day's work, at the end of which you can look at the people that you love and know that the food on the table is there because your customers got their money's worth.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to MarkShot)

Post #: 30