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Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 9:37:09 PM

targul

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Joined: 8/25/2004
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Well I have decided this game is simply broken. The prejudice in favor of the Axis in this game is just too much.

When I play the Axis I win 100% of the time when I play Allies I lose 100% of the time.

The Allies are not given there starting units. They are not provided with there income so they cant build tech points by comparison to the Axis.

Russia not only does not have money but it also does not have reinforcements. They are really left with only watching the Axis walk over them.

Game is simply broken. It is fixable and I will keep an eye on patches. I know this first one will not fix it but maybe down the line they will allow the Allies a reasonable chance to win also.

Anyway to all those I have played it has been fun but I need a game with some historical bases that allows the Allies some chance to win.

Good luck to you all!!

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

Post #: 1

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 9:44:36 PM

Vypuero

Posts: 232
Joined: 4/7/2007
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
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Targul, you are wrong - but rather than argue, I challenge you to a game and I will play Allies - TCP/IP is preferrable. I know I can win as Allies - have done it before a number of times, both as AI and partially vs humans.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 2

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 9:59:13 PM

Syagrius

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/12/2006
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So far I lost two game as the Axis against the AI. For me the game is far from broken.

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Post #: 3

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 10:04:50 PM

gmothes

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Joined: 6/25/2007
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I agree, I have both lost and won as the axis. Targul have you tried playing the Axis with an Allied advantage?

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 11:25:32 PM

targul

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As I said I do not play AI it is asleep. It never wins even when you give it plusses.

Beating the AI is not a test.

You must play humans. I have played seven different people with identical results. I do not need to be tested by someone who has not completed a game verses a human. That test has been completed enough times. Interesting that each of the Allies said the same thing prior to Moscow falling in 41. Hell even I said it 3 times.

You need to play some players who still feel that this game has some balance. I have stopped playing until they fix it so if that is forever fine but regretfully this one is at present unplayable as Allies and I dont want to play the Axis just to prove that over and over and over.

I changed my Russian tactics after each defeat but found the same problem. No reinforcements. Axis production higher then the Allies combined 3 ignoring the fact that the Russian is only one of those 3. Tech significantly lower then Axis with absolutely no way to improve it. Takes longer for an upgrade then Russia has to stand.

I too feel game has potential but they need to get rid of the idea that the Axis must win. It was fun when I won as the Axis until I found I won everytime and so did everyone else I played making those victories moot.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 5

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 11:50:08 PM

gmothes

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I am playing my first game as a human right now, as the Allies. So far so good. I will let you know if I have a different outcome. The war with Russia has not yet begun in my game, so I can't debate that point with you.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 6

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/3/2007 11:51:58 PM

Phatguy

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

I happen to partially agree. While I don't think this game is broken I do seem to detect a Axis bias to a certain extent. Targul is right. The Russians are shorted. Playing as the allies, I had a bear of a time producing anything but garrisons with an occasional corps or vary rare armor unit. Never mind air units!(minor axis advantage).

Nothing going on in the med but german subs all over the atlantic.
I do like how you have to juggle troops vs tech but even for western allies the pp is very low.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 7

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 1:02:52 AM

Dave Ferguson

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
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When I bought this game I thought I would see the benefit of extensive playtesting and exhaustive research. These might have happened through the games development but the the design decisions to depart from historical OOB, production etc in the quest of 'balance' mean the game is not, in my opinion, aimed at wargamers. If 'historical' scenarios were part of the scenario mix things might be OK but I don't see why players should develop and playtest such scenarios themselves. Judging from the number of posts here and at Slitherine it could be the game never reaches 'critical mass'. I have developed scenarios for another game that had less than 10 downloads, hardly worth the effort.

The patch might help but the scenario problem is still there, perhaps my fix of human v human play will be better satisfied elsewhere.

(in reply to Phatguy)

Post #: 8

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 1:05:45 AM

firepowerjohan

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We will release the map/scenario editor shortly so that means you can make for more realistic OOB if you want

Patch plans for the 1.01 version http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3624

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/4/2007 1:09:09 AM >

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(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 9

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 5:17:42 AM

Vypuero

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Targul - you can take Moscow and still lose the game - it gets very difficult for the Axis between manpower and oil late in the game. Also - Russia gets those huge convoys as reinforcements. I would also suggest a VERY easy fix - play it with 1 notch bonus towards Allies! That should be enough to do it.

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Post #: 10

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 5:56:38 AM

Phatguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Targul - you can take Moscow and still lose the game - it gets very difficult for the Axis between manpower and oil late in the game. Also - Russia gets those huge convoys as reinforcements. I would also suggest a VERY easy fix - play it with 1 notch bonus towards Allies! That should be enough to do it.
[/quot

I tried with a 1 notch allied side. Russia still had super problems. The west? I sat in England and did the historical thing. Dropped bombs on germany. No german fighters in the west, all in east.

(in reply to Vypuero)

Post #: 11

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 8:15:33 AM

schury

Posts: 279
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Targul - you can take Moscow and still lose the game - it gets very difficult for the Axis between manpower and oil late in the game. Also - Russia gets those huge convoys as reinforcements. I would also suggest a VERY easy fix - play it with 1 notch bonus towards Allies! That should be enough to do it.
[/quot

I tried with a 1 notch allied side. Russia still had super problems. The west? I sat in England and did the historical thing. Dropped bombs on germany. No german fighters in the west, all in east.

with 1 notch favors allied side, i am sure they will crush Axis. if you don't think so, we can try

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contact me if you wanna a new game:)

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Post #: 12

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 12:47:07 PM

firepowerjohan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: targul

Well I have decided this game is simply broken. The prejudice in favor of the Axis in this game is just too much.

When I play the Axis I win 100% of the time when I play Allies I lose 100% of the time.

The Allies are not given there starting units. They are not provided with there income so they cant build tech points by comparison to the Axis.

Russia not only does not have money but it also does not have reinforcements. They are really left with only watching the Axis walk over them.

Game is simply broken. It is fixable and I will keep an eye on patches. I know this first one will not fix it but maybe down the line they will allow the Allies a reasonable chance to win also.

Anyway to all those I have played it has been fun but I need a game with some historical bases that allows the Allies some chance to win.

Good luck to you all!!

Have you survived until the first USSR winter in 1941?
After that, when USA join and they mobilize the Allies will have clearly higher production than Axis.

For instance even starting the 1942 scenario where Axis has conqured alot of USSR land, the high water mark of Axis, they are still outproduced.

Axis collect 165 Production Points per turn
Allies collect 176 + convoys roughly 35 = 211 PP per turn

and still USA and USSR are not on 100% war effort so they still will get abit more in 1943.

If anything Allies need, it is patience and also investing in the right research and purchasing the right units. I would like to see screenshot how it looked when USSR was heading for defeat, what tech levels and what unit types they bought or had on the board.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/4/2007 1:11:41 PM >

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 2:20:04 PM

alaric318

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greetings, as said you maybe do not will defend moscow, defend perm and stalingrad, near perm and making ready for attack axis will sufer from supply problems, normally them have 3 supply when attaking perm, defending perm in adding make more convoys have reached murmansk and more time for the united states and united kingdom for make the secon front, at supply 3 it means that axis can only replace 3 losses of units that attack, meanwhile with perm the soviets i think stay at 5 supply and can replace 5 losses each unit, in adding you can give some "vital" advantages to the allies, modding at this time and from the editor when it is ready, in example you can increase russia war effort easyly, you can give organisation 2 to russia or maybe all allied powers and reduce the main advantage from the axis in this technology, i think that given the attack conditions at limited eficiency for the axis in his attack to perm will be enough, moscow is only a good production center, and russia must wait to make "all front" counterattacks, if you strengthend allies or weakens axis, axis will not be able of take perm at any chance, so, for me, play balance is almost perfect,

with regards,

murat30.

_____________________________

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Post #: 14

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 2:20:52 PM

JudgeDredd

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As I said in the past, I have given 1 notch to AI Allies and I'm just going along for the ride now...in full retreat from Germany and barely holding the initial landings at bay...even then I've decided to pull back and hold key points to make it difficult for the allies to progress...or at least slow.

As for Targul...your issue that you cannot win as Allies and your refusal to play as Axis so that someone else can show you that you can win as allies? I don't undertsand. Just because you cannot win as allies, doesn't make the game unbalanced. The fact that other people have played as allies and won suggests otherwise, wouldn't you think? Why don't you take them up on their offer so they can show you that allies can win?

Anyway, it can't be that bias to the Axis...because I'm losing and whilst I wouldn't put myself in the grognard status, I would put myself as a wargamer (even though I do not know the OOB of Axis and Allies between 1939 and 1945, Dave Ferguson)

I'm sure I'll be playing my first game as Allies soon....Germany is near the end of it's tether.

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Post #: 15

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 3:34:44 PM

Hard Sarge

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I think part of the hassle with this thread is we got people talking about playing other people and others talking about playing the AI

as the Allies, I can hold out vs the AI and do what I want, but I can also see, where a Human would of done something different then the AI is doing

but I do see enough from playing both sides, that there may be something to his complaints

the Axis do reseach faster, do build faster, and once the battle starts, the Russian is building or replaceing troops too much to be able to begin reseaching or buying better units, and with the (AI at least) running around with level 14 Armor and the Russian has level 3, it don't matter how many units he can buy

so not sure if this is coming across right, but in my current game, I am going to crush the Axis AI, he is toast already, but, I know how I play, and can see where what I am doing as the Allies, I would of hammered if I was the Axis player and somebody did it against me

I agree, and I think the Allies are too weak and too slow to able to do anything

(but, I don't think the game is bais towards the Axis, it is just the system)

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 6:15:09 PM

Phatguy

Posts: 1348
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From: Buffalo,ny
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think part of the hassle with this thread is we got people talking about playing other people and others talking about playing the AI

as the Allies, I can hold out vs the AI and do what I want, but I can also see, where a Human would of done something different then the AI is doing

but I do see enough from playing both sides, that there may be something to his complaints

the Axis do reseach faster, do build faster, and once the battle starts, the Russian is building or replaceing troops too much to be able to begin reseaching or buying better units, and with the (AI at least) running around with level 14 Armor and the Russian has level 3, it don't matter how many units he can buy

so not sure if this is coming across right, but in my current game, I am going to crush the Axis AI, he is toast already, but, I know how I play, and can see where what I am doing as the Allies, I would of hammered if I was the Axis player and somebody did it against me

I agree, and I think the Allies are too weak and too slow to able to do anything

(but, I don't think the game is bais towards the Axis, it is just the system)

ok the system is biased against the allies

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 17

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 6:18:09 PM

Hard Sarge

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No the system is geared to the AI, it don't matter which side is being played

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 6:27:51 PM

firepowerjohan

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Maybe I am seing the game from another perspective but in my latest 2 tcpip games against Kurt Eichert (=Vypuero, the guy who made all scenarios!) I noticed no Axis bias at all but instead a slight Allied bias. When I was Axis (and Vypueoro was Allies) we fought until 1944 but called it a draw. I had strong Axis tech (especially monster tanks!) but low manpower restricted me so I could not follow through or build enough infantry to fill the lines I had to focus just on defending and causing as much losses on USSR as possible to slow them down. Still held some USSR land in early 1944 when we ended but due to a Vichy Bug we had to stop and called it a draw.

In my latest game, I am Allies and Vypuero is Axis, in early 1942 he still is far from Moscow and Leningrad so I have managed to stall him and in the west I am hammering the french coast and having the dog fights of my life to drain the axis economy

I even manage to hold egypt still but I am pushed back at Port Said and he will eventually get it, but I try to hold as long as possible to deny him the oil fields in the mid east long enough.

In our games we have actually found it is abit tougher for Axis (on normal difficulty) and Vypuero said he thinks the 1939 game is 60-40 in favour of the Allies.

IMO Barbarossa is the most important front and handling USSR being pushed back requires alot of practice and patience. If you make mistakes then Axis can punish you but if you hold long enough the oil and manpower problems may slow Axis down.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/5/2007 1:33:43 AM >

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 6:46:21 PM

Hard Sarge

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that may be because he is letting you dogfight him and draining away his Production, they is not any real reason to keep the Axis Air in the West, until the Allies get there Stat Bombers higher enough to do damage

in RL, the Germens only kept 2 Gruppen on the Western front, and then, only fought when they felt like it, unlike in 43-44 when they had to oppose Allied air raids

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/4/2007 7:03:21 PM

firepowerjohan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

that may be because he is letting you dogfight him and draining away his Production, they is not any real reason to keep the Axis Air in the West, until the Allies get there Stat Bombers higher enough to do damage

in RL, the Germens only kept 2 Gruppen on the Western front, and then, only fought when they felt like it, unlike in 43-44 when they had to oppose Allied air raids

and that is almost exactly what happened. I levelled Paris and was about to level Brussels when he felt he had to fight back. The nice thing about UK is that they can neglect infantry and armour tech to focus alot more labs into navy and especially air tech. I have higher dog fight tech due to this and will either eat his planes or eat his cities. Also the strategic bomber has some upgrades so it can bomb cities better.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/4/2007 7:18:07 PM >

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 5:09:17 PM

MengCiao

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quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Maybe I am seing the game from another perspective but in my latest 2 tcpip games against Kurt Eichert (=Vypuero, the guy who made all scenarios!) I noticed no Axis bias at all but instead a slight Allied bias. When I was Axis (and Vypueoro was Allies) we fought until 1944 but called it a draw. I had strong Axis tech (especially monster tanks!) but low manpower restricted me so I could not follow through or build enough infantry to fill the lines I had to focus just on defending and causing as much losses on USSR as possible to slow them down. Still held some USSR land in early 1944 when we ended but due to a Vichy Bug we had to stop and called it a draw.

In my latest game, I am Allies and Vypuero is Axis, in early 1942 he still is far from Moscow and Leningrad so I have managed to stall him and in the west I am hammering the french coast and having the dog fights of my life to drain the axis economy
I even manage to hold egypt still but I am pushed back at Port Said and he will eventually get it, but I try to hold as long as possible to deny him the oil fields in the mid east long enough.

In our games we have actually found it is abit tougher for Axis (on normal difficulty) and Vypuero said he thinks the 1939 game is 60-40 in favour of the Allies.

IMO Barbarossa is the most important front and handling USSR being pushed back requires alot of practice and patience. If you make mistakes then Axis can punish you but if you hold long enough the oil and manpower problems may slow Axis down.

What is the Vichy Bug? What are the symptoms? How is it manifest?

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 5:15:22 PM

HansBolter

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The Germans can easily stand and fight in the air in the west and trounce the British IF they are smart enough to emphasize dogfighting reasearch and I mean EMPHASIZE as in a minumum of 3 labs on air research.

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Post #: 23

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 5:43:30 PM

firepowerjohan

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The Vichy bug was in a beta version prior to release so relax, it is not there anymore

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Post #: 24

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 7:06:45 PM

IainMcNeil

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The feedback right now seems very split about whether its too easy for Axis or not so I'm not sure whether we need to reduce the strength of Germany or Italy, or leave things as they are. Maybe we will let the modding community decide once they get their hands on the editor.

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RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 8:07:30 PM

targul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The feedback right now seems very split about whether its too easy for Axis or not so I'm not sure whether we need to reduce the strength of Germany or Italy, or leave things as they are. Maybe we will let the modding community decide once they get their hands on the editor.

I find this funny. I have asked on this board over and over for anyone who has won a game as Allies verses a Human opponent and not one person has said yes.

Many say they can but no one has said they did.

Now I have played many players from this board we certainly never saw an Allied win. The norm should be an Allied win not axis. I know some may not like it but the Allies really did win.

Had one person responded that they had won as Allies I would still be playing.

I still have two games I am playing because I always complete all the games I agree to play.

One of these players seems to be doing very well as Russian. It is early 42 and I have not taken Moscow but time will tell if Russia will still stand by 43. I have had two games go to 44 but the Allies still collapsed. But I will admit this guy is holding strong. But again I own all of Africa and my Italians are fighting in Iran at this time. This is nomal for the game since there is no supply control from Malta allowing unlimited axis units in africa. The lack of supply control and the removal of commonwealth reinforcement and the starting air unit not being there has been the rue of Egypt in every game.

Other game that I am still involved in is too soon to have any idea of Russia.

I did complete one more game since I quit accepting new games of this one and that one ended in another Axis win.

So I am still waiting for someone who played Allies verses a human player to say they won. I mean it is not too much to ask for 1 victory but still none reported.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 26

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 9:15:46 PM

firepowerjohan

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Already ppl are saying they take up your challenge and offer to be Allies in a game vs you so repating this over and over without beating those who claim the opposite is no point. Continue this discussion on the battlefields instead.

I hereby offer to defend my game and play against you, me being Allies of course

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Post #: 27

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 9:23:14 PM

targul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Already ppl are saying they take up your challenge and offer to be Allies in a game vs you so repating this over and over without beating those who claim the opposite is no point. Continue this discussion on the battlefields instead.�

I hereby offer to defend my game and play against you, me being Allies of course�

Same question firepowerjohan have you ever won as a human Allied player? If answer is yes then I would happily play you since I would like to see the Allies win ONCE.

Everyone who has responded so far has not won as Allied verses a human. They beat the AI not a real person. I just want to play someone who has actually played and won verses a person so I can find what all of us having been doing wrong and him right.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to firepowerjohan)

Post #: 28

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 9:32:45 PM

firepowerjohan

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I have not finished any tcpip game on the 1.00 version yet.
My ongoing game is vs Vypuero (the man who made all scenarios), 1939 scenario�where I am Allies and I am doing fine. We are in 1942 and neither side has any clear advantage, holding Moscow, Kiev, Leningrad, Port Said.

My last tcpip game before that was with a late beta version, also vs Vypuero. I was Axis that time and game turned out a draw.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/5/2007 9:33:59 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Game is Broken Quit until Patches - 7/5/2007 9:37:00 PM

targul

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Sounds like you are doing fine. Really surprised you still hold Port Said.

If it becomes obvious to you that you will actually win as the allies give me a hollar and I will play you. Not because I am the best Axis player there is because I am not even close but because I sincerely would like to see the Allies win ONE game.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to firepowerjohan)

Post #: 30

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