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Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 6:44:12 AM

Roberto21

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
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Has anyone had any luck in increasing the number of completed games by pitchers?

I am playing in the dead-ball era with a 4 man rotation and closer unchecked. Most pitchers are only getting half as many completed games as starts�much less than is historically accurate. In my attempts to rectify this problem I have attempted a number of fixes, but to no avail.

What I�ve tried:
1. Adjusting manager AI in game. Computer controlled teams always revert back to default.
2. Adjusting player usage so that coach very patient in regard to the hook. No effect.
3. Lowered the hook value in the xml. No noticeable effect.
4. Lowered the likelihood of pinch-hitting in the xml. No noticeable effect.

Can anyone give me some suggestions for a fix? Has anyone been successful with increasing pitcher�s completed games even just a little bit?

All help is appreciated.

Post #: 1

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 7:23:40 AM

motnahp

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Joined: 8/22/2005
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Pardon if I piggy-back on your post, but I've had the same issue with my current NL-only association. I don't recall which update brought the problem to light. I believe things were "normal" with version 1.20.

I started an assn with the 1969 NL, using real players on their actual teams. I noticed early on that reliever appearances were up and starters' complete games were down.

When creating my assn., I recall having to make the decision on whether or not to use the "modern closer" option. I chose "yes", figuring that the majority of my assn's years DID use closers.

With this option selected, AI managers handle their pitching staff much the same way that managers today handle them in real MLB. I notice that starting pitchers are seemingly automatically pinch-hit for in innings 5-7 if their team is behind or tied. If a team has a lead of 3 runs or less, it is automatic that the closer will pitch the ninth. I don't review every game, but I'm sure I've had pitchers throwing no-hitters with 3-0 leads pulled after eight innings.

Under the "Manager/GM Tendencies", I've had every team set to "Patient", in reference to "hook". Your post has prompted me to do a test season with the hook set to "Extremely Patient", just to see what happens. I'll post my results in this thread.

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 2

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:12:20 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: motnahp

Pardon if I piggy-back on your post, but I've had the same issue with my current NL-only association. I don't recall which update brought the problem to light. I believe things were "normal" with version 1.20.

I started an assn with the 1969 NL, using real players on their actual teams. I noticed early on that reliever appearances were up and starters' complete games were down.

When creating my assn., I recall having to make the decision on whether or not to use the "modern closer" option. I chose "yes", figuring that the majority of my assn's years DID use closers.

With this option selected, AI managers handle their pitching staff much the same way that managers today handle them in real MLB. I notice that starting pitchers are seemingly automatically pinch-hit for in innings 5-7 if their team is behind or tied. If a team has a lead of 3 runs or less, it is automatic that the closer will pitch the ninth. I don't review every game, but I'm sure I've had pitchers throwing no-hitters with 3-0 leads pulled after eight innings.

Under the "Manager/GM Tendencies", I've had every team set to "Patient", in reference to "hook". Your post has prompted me to do a test season with the hook set to "Extremely Patient", just to see what happens. I'll post my results in this thread.

I think that I've finally made some major headway on this issue. I've gone into the xml and made some major changes to the pinch hit and pinch run values while also increasing the fatigue recovery time of starting pitchers. This has resulted in quite a few pitchers completing as many as 75% of their games. Ex: Cy Young 41 starts and 31 completed.

I'm going to continue making some adjustments and see if I can't get even better results. This is for my 1901 season that I'm working on. Historically their were about 10 pitchers who completed 35 or more games. Noodles Hawn had the record that season with 41 out of 42 games completed. Of course, he seemed to be quite the exception. My goal is to get about a dozen players completing around 35 games. Not sure if this is possible, but I'll keep this thread updated with my results.

(in reply to motnahp)

Post #: 3

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:24:45 AM

motnahp

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Joined: 8/22/2005
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I went to my end of 1979 NL season backup file and ran a test assn, after changing all teams' Hooks to "Extremely Patient". I did not make any of the roster moves during the "test 1980" season, so the players aren't EXACTLY where they were, but I was able to compare it to my just-completed 1980 season, in which I made all the player moves and allowed the AI to make roster adjustments at least twice monthly. Here's the data:

Total assn. complete games:
With hook set to patient: 79
With hook extremely patient: 44

Pitchers with 200+ IP
Patient: 28
Extremely Patient: 16

I know this seems backward, but that's what I got. One weird (and unacceptable) thing that happened was that in my "extremely patient" test assn., RELIEF PITCHERS ended up with 7 of the top 11 spots in victories! In my "patient" assn., there was only one reliever in the top 10.

Based on this completely un-scientific study, I am baffled. I am tempted to do an assn. without the closer option just to compare. I'll need time to set up all the ballparks, so this won't be done tonight. I do have one possible solution, and it's one I've mentioned a few times on this board. No one else has chimed in that they agree with me, but I'll repeat it again in this thread. I'll keep fishing and see if I get any bites. I KNOW the bait is good and tasty.

I feel that a good addition to this program (optional, of course) would be for the AI to recognize batters' real-life AB or plate appearances and pitchers' IP for a particular season. Once a batter has reached his real-life # of AB or PA, or a pitcher has reached his real-life # of IP, that player should suffer a drastic ratings hit and/or have an increased tendency to tire/become injured. I'll use Houston's J. R. Richard as an example.

Richard suffered a stroke in mid-1980 and never pitched again. Someone using Richard in the 1980 season should not (IMO) be able to have him available for the entire year. In my scenario, he would have a limited number of innings available that season, and once he reached that limit, his ratings would decline sharply and his propensity to become injured would increase sharply.

This accounting was used in another game I own, Lance Haffner Baseball. The user was required to enter player percentages of a team's total for the season. Entering this was a very tedious process, but the data, once entered, gave the game's AI something to draw from when deciding whom to pitch, play, or pinch-hit with. I never stuck with that program long enough to see how well it worked, as the game itself was entirely text-based and got a little boring. I just know that the idea of it is well-intentioned and would add accuracy to season replays from any season. Any comments on this would be appreciated.

(in reply to motnahp)

Post #: 4

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:26:59 AM

motnahp

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Joined: 8/22/2005
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I forgot to ask if you were using the modern closer option. I ass-u-me you aren't, since you're in the dead-ball era.

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 5

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:32:11 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: motnahp

I forgot to ask if you were using the modern closer option. I ass-u-me you aren't, since you're in the dead-ball era.

I am not using the modern closer.

(in reply to motnahp)

Post #: 6

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:36:31 AM

motnahp

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Joined: 8/22/2005
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Definitely keep us updated on your venture into the XML world. I've been with PS for almost 3 years now, but have never ventured into those waters. I won't be able to use the same percentages that you use (I'm in 1981), but maybe I can benefit from your "percentage of increase" and apply it to my own assn(s).

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 7

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:39:06 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

This accounting was used in another game I own, Lance Haffner Baseball. The user was required to enter player percentages of a team's total for the season. Entering this was a very tedious process, but the data, once entered, gave the game's AI something to draw from when deciding whom to pitch, play, or pinch-hit with. I never stuck with that program long enough to see how well it worked, as the game itself was entirely text-based and got a little boring. I just know that the idea of it is well-intentioned and would add accuracy to season replays from any season. Any comments on this would be appreciated.

This is an interesting idea that would add to the historical realism, but I would also want a potential variable so that history could ultimately be re-written.

In regard to the hook, have you had any luck setting the computer controled manager options without them reverting back to the default? I've had no luck thus far. As for pitcher usage, this hasn't really made an impact in any of my simmed games.

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 8

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 8:47:19 AM

motnahp

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Joined: 8/22/2005
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The assn I'm tinkering with was set up as Multiplayer, with all teams under human control. I changed all the teams to "extremely patient", then checked before I did my test replay and everything was still OK. I looked again after the season and all were still checked "extremely patient" (although it seemed to work in reverse!).

I once had the same issue of the choices reverting back to default on their own. It was a long time ago and I don't recall the specifics. I just remember being P.O.'d when I played a season without realizing that the game had changed it without my knowledge.

My suggestion about limiting AB/IP would definitely need to be optional. I've had assns where I've mixed and matched players from the 60's with the 2000's. I wouldn't want the limitations applied in those cases.

< Message edited by motnahp -- 6/22/2007 8:52:29 AM >

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 9

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 9:08:51 AM

Roberto21

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From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

I'm wondering if there is a value in the xml that determines the rate at which a pitcher becomes fatigued throughout the corse of pitching the game? I assume this is simply tied into the pitcher's endurace attribute vs. the number of pitches thrown, but I'm wondering if this can be adjusted so that perhaps the pitcher's likelyhood of completing the game will be increased?

(in reply to motnahp)

Post #: 10

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 9:12:19 AM

akcranker

Posts: 477
Joined: 12/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roberto21

I'm wondering if there is a value in the xml that determines the rate at which a pitcher becomes fatigued throughout the corse of pitching the game? I assume this is simply tied into the pitcher's endurace attribute vs. the number of pitches thrown, but I'm wondering if this can be adjusted so that perhaps the pitcher's likelyhood of completing the game will be increased?

I would suggest checking out Shaun's thread about the new Pitcher Fatigue Modeling that he will have in the next update. Might fix some of your problems.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1487895

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 11

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 9:18:57 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

[/quote]

I would suggest checking out Shaun's thread about the new Pitcher Fatigue Modeling that he will have in the next update. Might fix some of your problems.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1487895
[/quote]

Cool. Thanks for the link.

(in reply to akcranker)

Post #: 12

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/22/2007 11:24:50 PM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

After simulating over a dozen games from the 1901 season, I feel that I have had some success with increasing the number of completed games that pitchers are finishing the season with. To achieve this I primarily made changes in the xml to the likelyhood of the computer AI pinch hitting or pinch running. By reducing thoses chances, I now have some of my pitchers completing about 3/4 of their started games. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out a few more xml tweaks to continue to improve on this, but at the moment I'm completely out of ideas.

If anyone has any additional ideas or would like a list of the exact xml changes that I made, let me know.

Cheers.
[image][/image]

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 13

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/23/2007 12:15:45 AM

KG Erwin

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Those look good, Roberto21 (glad to see a fellow Pirates fan here). By way of comparison, here's my CG leaders. This is with using the default XML settings and modern closer usage OFF:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 14

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/23/2007 12:24:42 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Those look good, Roberto21 (glad to see a fellow Pirates fan here). By way of comparison, here's my CG leaders. This is with using the default XML settings and modern closer usage OFF:

Wow! Warren Spahn pitching for the Pirates--what a beautiful thing. KG, keep those Bucks rolling!

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 15

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/23/2007 12:27:16 AM

KG Erwin

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To go a step further, the current leader in CG is Derek Lowe of the Dodgers, with 3 CG in 15 starts (20%).

Yeah, I'm a nostalgist, so the steady decline of "Iron Men" in MLB's history demonstrates several trends, which I won't elaborate on here.

Suffice it to say that I think Roberto21 is working on a pretty good custom XML for the Deadball Era.

PS Love that avatar!

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 6/23/2007 12:30:46 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 16

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/23/2007 2:52:10 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

I continue to have some success with the completed games issue. I've found that although you cannot alter the Management AI of the computer controlled teams without the selections reverting back to the defaults, it is possible to go in an adjust all useage levels for the pitchers. The selections that you make will remain throughout the season. When I adjust all starting pitcher's hook level to extremely patient and select "keep this pitcher on bench" for all releif pitchers, I get even better results when coupled with my altered xml.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 17

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/23/2007 2:54:00 AM

Roberto21

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
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Here's a better look at my current regular season innings pitched with the changes that I am thus far running with.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 18

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 6/24/2007 5:30:00 PM

akcranker

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Joined: 12/12/2005
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Glad to see that you continue to update this thread. Please keep it up because it's good for the community. I don't play any associations from that era but like I said this thread is good for the community and with resident expert KG inputting his experience in this thread it can only get better.

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 19

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 7/4/2007 9:44:21 PM

Roberto21

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

I just simmed through my first season with the new 6.1 release and the results look very good for completed games in the dead-ball era. As KG Erwin mentioned in another post, it seems with the new update that pitcher's with a good "stuff" rating are possibly throwing fewer pitches and completing more games. I'm assuming that this is the reason for a significant rise in completed games down the board. See my screenshot and compare it to those above.

Ultimately, I'd still like to see more completed games by many of these pitchers so that we get closer to real life during this time period. (Good pitchers completing about 60-80% of their games. Would still like to see it closer to 85-90% for the many pitchers who were doing it in real life.) However, I can't think of any more tweaks that I can make to the XML to achieve this. If throwing fewer pitches is the answer, then possibly this can be modiefied further, but I don't know how to do this or if it is even possible. It might even upset realism in the thrown pitches department. Does anyone out there have any ideas or suggestions?

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to akcranker)

Post #: 20

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 7/4/2007 9:48:47 PM

Roberto21

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
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Actually, after comparing the number of pitches thrown by these top "Complete Game" pitchers, it actually doesn't appear to be much of a difference at all. Now I'm really perplexed. I wonder what Shaun tweaked exactly and if it can be tweaked some more?

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 21

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 7/4/2007 10:24:50 PM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Those results don't satisfy you? Really, Roberto, what more could you want? They look perfectly appropriate for that time period.

As I've said in our threads, you're not gonna get a perfect replication of any given season. PS uses relative ratings, not a strict stats recreation model. This point is still misunderstood.

It's an abstract concept, and it takes a while to wrap your mind around it. Once you grasp it, though, the overall database relationships become clear. It's based on relativity, NOT on absolutes. A talent curve is established.

Think on this for a bit, and it will start making sense to you.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/4/2007 10:32:34 PM >

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 22

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 7/5/2007 12:11:12 AM

Roberto21

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Those results don't satisfy you? Really, Roberto, what more could you want? They look perfectly appropriate for that time period.

As I've said in our threads, you're not gonna get a perfect replication of any given season. PS uses relative ratings, not a strict stats recreation model. This point is still misunderstood.

It's an abstract concept, and it takes a while to wrap your mind around it. Once you grasp it, though, the overall database relationships become clear. It's based on relativity, NOT on absolutes. A talent curve is established.

Think on this for a bit, and it will start making sense to you.

I suppose that you're right. My biggest concern is that with further modification it is going to cause problems elsewhere. I believe that I'll be starting my season soon with the intention of keeping it running for many, many long years. Can't wait to see how the Pirates do.

_____________________________

"Clemente could field the ball in New York and throw out a guy in Pennsylvania." - Broadcaster Vin Scully

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 23

RE: Pitcher Completed Games - 7/5/2007 1:25:59 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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From: California, USA
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I know I'm going to sound like a snob in saying this, but... eh, such is the sacrifice for one's love.

Remember... PureSim is a baseball simulator, not a replicator. Sure they have the same number of syllables and they both end it "ator", but they are effectively two completely different animals.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Roberto21)

Post #: 24

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Pitcher Completed Games