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RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/25/2006 3:44:08 PM

Froonp

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About page 12, post #54 :
You stress that both the French and Italian Task Forces displayed are of comparable strengh, and you say that lot will depend of the sections they are in. While it is true that the section is important, a difference of 1 section between both is not really that important, and at this level of comparable task force strenghs and sections, what is really important is the search roll.
Indeed, at sea, A LOT depend on the search rolls, and while it is true that being in section 4 will allow you to have better chances of surprising the enemy, the search roll is much more important.
And the search roll is 95% of pure luck.

So I'd say that even if the sea box section is important, it is very far from being sufficient to be able to conduct successful naval wars in WiF FE.

I know that you won't explain all this in the Tutorial, which by that way are ALL VERY GOOD, but you should add to this page that the search rolls are important too.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 61

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/25/2006 3:54:24 PM

CBoehm

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maybe a comment about that if only one side has airsupport no matter how puny they hold a huge benefit since they often will be able choose whether or not to close and engage ....(ei. if the other side rolls better than you on the searchroll you call "air" even thought u might only have a fighter ...if the other side rolls badly & and you find them, then you choose "surface" )

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Post #: 62

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/25/2006 4:01:25 PM

Arron69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

maybe a comment about that if only one side has airsupport no matter how puny they hold a huge benefit since they often will be able choose whether or not to close and engage ....(ei. if the other side rolls better than you on the searchroll you call "air" even thought u might only have a fighter ...if the other side rolls badly & and you find them, then you choose "surface" )

Powerful point, and one very eccensial to the naval combat system.

Andi

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Post #: 63

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/25/2006 8:19:40 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Patrice, et al,

As I said when I posted page 9, these pages are doomed to be controversial.

So lets see.

You want these pages to also cover (in detail), search rolls with weather effects, optimal fleet profile/size for naval combat (which means explaining the naval combat table, or at least showing it), the German fleet engaging versus staying in port versus going through to Faeroes Gap (I assume you want to mention why they would want to be there?), maintaining reserve naval units, that moving subs requires an extra naval move (Gee, what's a naval move? Why is there a limited number of them? What's an Action? Do both sides move simultaneously? Is this an RTS game?), ...

I am using the term task force loosely here. In fact, I may never use the WIF FE definition of task force. If at all possible, I won't. That's because it is a specialized definition of a word in common usage. Those are very hard to learn and remember, especailly if you play a lot of naval war games and each one has a different definition for the word.

Instead I will try to define a task force as simply a group of ships. A task force can be formed in a port. Several smaller task forces can be moved into a sea area to make up a large task force. A large task force at sea can split into smaller groups and return to different ports. If both surface ships and subs are in a task force, then it will require 2 naval moves to move them en masse. All of this is for later tutorials where unit movment will be explained.

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Post #: 64

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/25/2006 8:28:30 PM

Zorachus99

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

It's not entirely clear the the second build cycle of a ship is Cst1+Cst2. It would make more sense - To me, to have the first and second cycle explicitly shown instead of making the player calculate the cost of the second cycle.

The second build cycle of a ship is NOT Cst1+Cst2.
The first and second cycle ARE explicitly shown in the screenshot here.
CST 1 / CST 2 / TRNS are displayed in the detailled view.
Vittorio Veneto : 2 / 3 / 6

Where is the problem ?

I should have checked the counters first but my guess was that the cost of the littorio and other itallian 8pt BB's was a cycle cost of 2 to lay down the keel , and 5 to finish. 2+3=5. That's what I was looking at.

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Post #: 65

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 4:53:27 AM

stretch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

3rd and last in the series.

The wording here that the Nagato participated in the pearl harbor attack is kind of stretching it IMHO, considering the ship was in Hashirajima. Yes it was flagship and radioed "Niitakayama nobore" but as written it sounds like it's saying the BB was in the strike force itself.

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Post #: 66

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 5:11:57 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
3rd and last in the series.

The wording here that the Nagato participated in the pearl harbor attack is kind of stretching it IMHO, considering the ship was in Hashirajima. Yes it was flagship and radioed "Niitakayama nobore" but as written it sounds like it's saying the BB was in the strike force itself.

Thanks for the correction.

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Post #: 67

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 8:32:45 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here are the missing 2 pages for the 5th tutorial (naval units).

There will be a lot more about this when we get to the tutorials on naval movement & combat and, even later, to the tutorial on production. All I am trying to do with these 2 pages is show how convoy points are used.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 68

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 8:35:16 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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2nd and last in the series.

I thought about using the global map but I decided to put off doing that until the production tutorial.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 69

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 10:42:18 AM

Arron69

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Maybe just tell beginners why they need resourses...

Andi

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Post #: 70

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 11:29:22 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

Maybe just tell beginners why they need resourses...

Andi

That was done in an earlier tutorial on the map (#2) where resources and factories and rail lines were lightly discussed.

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Post #: 71

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 11:53:26 AM

Froonp

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Beautifull !!!

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Post #: 72

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 5:43:56 PM

stretch

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Maybe you could show the CP actually sitting in the 0 box of a sea area ?

which makes me follow up with.. you added the sea boxes on map as a preliminary step to actually showing stacked units in the boxes they occupy on map, yes? CWIF didn't do that and I hated it. Just wanted to ask if that's still the plan.

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Post #: 73

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 8:29:10 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch
Maybe you could show the CP actually sitting in the 0 box of a sea area ?

which makes me follow up with.. you added the sea boxes on map as a�preliminary step to actually showing stacked units in the boxes they occupy on map, yes?� CWIF didn't do that and I hated it.� Just wanted to ask if that's still the plan.

Background
The CWIF code for moving units is poorly structured. Validating which moves are legal is even more so. I have spent hundreds of hours trying to track bugs through those 5000+ lines of code with the results that I have concluded they need to be completely overhauled before new code can be inserted.

Da Plan
I will redesign the game engine so there is overall control based on sequence of play. That will provide the superstructure on which all processing routines will be relocated. The routines themselves will be structured using 'case' statements based on phase and subphase from the sequence of play. For instance, there will be one routine for determining whether a move is valid that will first separate the logic into the phase/subphase of the game and then within/knowing each phase/subphase make further judgments based on the units benig moved, their start and end locations, weather, etc..

Status
I have stub-end code for several of these modules but I have not stepped up to doing the complete redesign yet. I am working on cleaning up enough bugs (that I created in the redesign of the player interface) so I can upload version 3.00 for the beta testers. Once that is done, I want to put in the NetPlay/Internet module(s).

Future
I hope to do the game engine redesign starting in November and finishnig by the end of the year. Once that is done, I can redesign how naval units are placed on the map - and have them appear in the sea area sections!

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Post #: 74

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 9:51:57 PM

Froonp

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quote:

I thought about using the global map but I decided to put off doing that until the production tutorial.

And I think you were right, because it allow to see what the map looks like at the lowest level of zoom.
This is great !
Seems you removed the labels and the rails from the map in this shot.

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Post #: 75

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/26/2006 9:56:50 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I thought about using the global map but I decided to put off doing that until the production tutorial.

And I think you were right, because it allow to see what the map looks like at the lowest level of zoom.
This is great !
Seems you removed the labels and the rails from the map in this shot.

Yes, the rails weren't needed for the point of the page. And the names can not be read at zoom level 1.

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Post #: 76

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 10/27/2006 3:29:25 AM

trees trees

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this board makes me want to go back into computer programming. I walked away from C++ proficiency to move into forestry and outdoor work, but I'm suddenly missing subroutine calls and function libraries and everything else.

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Post #: 77

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 3:57:33 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Bump.

There was a question about naval combat and I thought that bumping this thread back to the top would be useful.

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Post #: 78

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 7:38:29 AM

freeboy

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Thanks, IT seems organized, BUT the conceipt I am having tropuble getting my head arround is the one where the sides actually have combat in a three month period, I guess it really is a ? of the stages or steps used... but if you are using htis alevel of detail, down to ships in hexes, seems like a jump to be able to model an ingagemnt and then the follow up engagements that navel combat had. Task forces fought at specific sites and then moved, when surface action took place. Several battles where at night and gave a prepared early war japanees navy a huge addvantage, see Savos, sp? battle. I guess those familiar with the system seem to like it or you would be going a differrent direction, and I am not saying you should , just it seems odd.

How many battles could two forces in say the gilberts have in one turn?/two month period in this game? Lets say there is limited land air but good sea supply if that even exits? and both sides can reinforce there cv and cv planes, using the cv planes reules? Thanks again for the time to inspire me! looks very interesting!

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Post #: 79

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 8:21:48 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Thanks, IT seems organized, BUT the conceipt I am having tropuble getting my head arround is the one where the sides actually have combat in a three month period, I guess it really is a ? of the stages or steps used... but if you are using htis alevel of detail, down to ships in hexes, seems like a jump to be able to model an ingagemnt and then the follow up engagements that navel combat had. Task forces fought at specific sites and then moved, when surface action took place. Several battles where at night and gave a prepared early war japanees navy a huge addvantage, see Savos, sp? battle. I guess those familiar with the system seem to like it or you would be going a differrent direction, and I am not saying you should , just it seems odd.

How many battles could two forces in say the gilberts have in one turn?/two month period in this game? Lets say there is limited land air but good sea supply if that even exits? and both sides can reinforce there cv and cv planes, using the cv planes reules? Thanks again for the time to inspire me! looks very interesting!

There can be quite a lot of naval combat, depending on the weather. The weather is set before the 1st impulse of each turn and may change every odd impulse. The effect is that both sides get the same weather for an impulse (players alternate being the phasing player every impulse). The number of impulses in a turn is a function of the weather too, with the quantity ranging from 5 to 12 typically (some exceptions). During each impulse both sides get an opportunity to try to initiate naval combat in a sea area: phasing player decides yea or nay and then non-phasing player does likewise.

So, if there are naval units from both sides in a sea area, both sides can try to initiate combat every impulse. Although a player may want to have naval combat, it depends on whether the enemy forces 'see' each other.

The search rolls depend on the weather conditions, whether air units are involved (land based or carrier based), and the sea boxes the naval fleets are in. The higher the numbered sea box, the more active the fleet is in patrolling the sea area and the more likely they are to see the enemy. To place your fleet in a high numbered sea box you have to have started your fleet in a nearby port and/or have naval units with high mobility. There is ample opportunity for surprise to occur too, either because one side just declared war on the other (e.g., Pearl Harbor) or because one side was close (US at Midway) and the other side travelled a longer distance (Japan at Midway).

If naval combat occurs, it is not over after one round. Should both players decide to stay in the sea area, another set of search rolls takes place and additional rounds of combat can occur in that 1 impulse. There can be many of rounds of combat in an impulse if both players want to continue to contest the sea area. Every subsequent impulse the phasing player can bring more naval units into the sea area, and both sides can bring additional land based air units (if there are any still available). And then they can have at it again.

I have left out a lot of details here, but the general overview is that IF both players want to engage in naval combat, and the weather is favorable for them finding each other, and they have plenty of movement points for reaching the sea area (and/or air units searching), THEN they can slug it out until one of them calls it quits. During Monsoon weather, naval combat is rare.

Naval combat also comes in 3 flavors: air to sea, surface, and submarine.

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Post #: 80

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 8:32:52 AM

freeboy

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sounds good, you use the term sea area.. I asume this is a larger area than a hex?

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Post #: 81

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 9:09:34 AM

Neilster

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If you look at the image above, the dark blue lines separate the sea areas. For example, there are 3 in the Mediterranean. The ocean ones tend to be bigger.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 11:26:44 AM

dale1066

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Just thought it worth a mention that in many cases naval combat can and often is avoided for an impulse, eg when a patrolling inferior force surprises a superior one and uses that surprise to duck out of the combat. All the vessels remain in their requisite sea boxes for possible engagements next impulse, useful to do when you have reinforcements to place into that sea area.

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Post #: 83

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 11:35:02 AM

dale1066

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quote:

you have reinforcements to place into that sea area.

sorry poor wording

Should be more like have fresh (undisrupted) naval forces available to move into that sea area next impulse.

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Post #: 84

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 12:16:27 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
So, if there are naval units from both sides in a sea area, both sides can try to initiate combat every impulse. Although a player may want to have naval combat, it depends on whether the enemy forces 'see' each other.

Not entirely true. The non phasing side can only initiate searches (thus combats) in a sea area if the phasing player has moved units within the sea area, or added new units to the sea area.

quote:

The search rolls depend on the weather conditions, whether air units are involved (land based or carrier based), and the sea boxes the naval fleets are in. The higher the numbered sea box, the more active the fleet is in patrolling the sea area and the more likely they are to see the enemy. To place your fleet in a high numbered sea box you have to have started your fleet in a nearby port and/or have naval units with high mobility. There is ample opportunity for surprise to occur too, either because one side just declared war on the other (e.g., Pearl Harbor) or because one side was close (US at Midway) and the other side travelled a longer distance (Japan at Midway).

If naval combat occurs, it is not over after one round. Should both players decide to stay in the sea area, another set of search rolls takes place and additional rounds of combat can occur in that 1 impulse. There can be many of rounds of combat in an impulse if both players want to continue to contest the sea area. Every subsequent impulse the phasing player can bring more naval units into the sea area, and both sides can bring additional land based air units (if there are any still available). And then they can have at it again.

Land based air units can also be brung at each new round.

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Post #: 85

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 3:58:22 PM

freeboy

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Not entirely true. The non phasing side can only initiate searches (thus combats) in a sea area if the phasing player has moved units within the sea area, or added new units to the sea area

ok, so you are saying that they are vulnerable only if moved? that is not logical! or maybe it has to do with the phases.. boy I hate that word, why not stages? anyway.. interesting, maybe I will read the manual... will the computerized version manual be different? seems it would have to be?

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Post #: 86

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 4:45:40 PM

Frederyck

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No, the computerised manual will not be different regarding to the rules aspect of the game, apart from a few specialised cases where the electronic game differs from the physical one. (for example the rulings for drawing chits in the computer game doesn't have to take into account that there is a finite number of paper pieces as it is in the board game.)

Anyhow, as to your question - in your own impulse, your naval units are only vulnerable if you move them or if you use them to try to find your enemy. In your opponent's impulse your ships are always vulnerable providing that the opponent has chosen an action that lets her search at sea. And as a turn (2 months game time) ususally has several impulses for both sides there is plenty of opportunity to send the enemy to the bottom of the ocean, if that is your priority - or for her to decimate your navy of course.

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Post #: 87

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 5:40:44 PM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Not entirely true. The non phasing side can only initiate searches (thus combats) in a sea area if the phasing player has moved units within the sea area, or added new units to the sea area

ok, so you are saying that they are vulnerable only if moved? that is not logical! or maybe it has to do with the phases.. boy I hate that word, why not stages? anyway.. interesting, maybe I will read the manual... will the computerized version manual be different? seems it would have to be?

Stages can't be used because in WiF a turn consists of:

Stages (REINFORCEMENT STAGE, LENDING RESOURCES STAGE, INITIATIVE STAGE, ACTION STAGE, and etc.)

Steps (the sequence things happen durring a stage Ie. Declare War, Perform Actions, and etc.).

Impulses (each player has an Impulse where they execute actions durring the ACTION STAGE - Performs Actions Step. Then they check for the end of the turn. If the turn ends you perform the END OF TURN STAGE).

The "Phasing" player is easier to say than "the player performing their actions durring their Impulse within an ACTION STAGE - Performs Actions Step".

< Message edited by Mziln -- 7/8/2007 5:58:52 PM >

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Post #: 88

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 7:22:16 PM

IrishGuards

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I dont know if this is VIP or even mentioned before but I was thinking about this the other day ..
As I remember the Naval CRT .. the ability of 1 or 2 ships to damage the enemy rises or falls by the amount of enemy ships present in a battle .
While I really think the mechanics of Naval battles is great .. always has been ..

I can't help but think maybe what ADG did was start with a baseline and go from there ..
As I think about this more I have come to the conclusion ...
That .. not only do ships have a range and speed factor ... but I think it should be taken into account that a CA or CL against a BB or BC will not have the initiative and the BB or BC will shoot first because of the range of guns .. I would hope that this is looked into ..
As I have said I was thinking about this the other day .. from what I remember that is ..
IDG

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Post #: 89

RE: Tutorial #5 - Naval Units - 7/8/2007 8:18:02 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishDragoonGuards
I dont know if this is VIP or even mentioned before but I was thinking about this the other day ..
As I remember the Naval CRT .. the ability of 1 or 2 ships to damage the enemy rises or falls by the amount of enemy ships present in a battle .
While I really think the mechanics of Naval battles is great .. always has been ..

I can't help but think maybe what ADG did was start with a baseline and go from there ..
As I think about this more I have come to the conclusion ...
That .. not only do ships have a range and speed factor ... but I think it should be taken into account that a CA or CL against a BB or BC will not have the initiative and the BB or BC will shoot first because of the range of guns .. I would hope that this is looked into ..
As I have said I was thinking about this the other day .. from what I remember that is ..
IDG

A couple of things here.

- The ability of a naval unit to damage another does depend on the number of units involved in the action. However, which naval units are used depends on the die rolls and who sees whom. Units in higher numbered sea boxes are more likely to be involved in the combat. That addresses the units' speed, range, and how far from port they are.

- In addition, when only one side finds the other, then the surprising side gets to choose which sea boxes are in the combat; and often also gets to choose whether combat occurs at all and which type of combat.

- Having air units lets you choose a naval air combat, which can be very hard on the side that is outnumbered (more attackers coming in, less fighter protection, and less anti-aircraft protection).

- Even if it is a simple surface combat with only a few ships against many (as you propsed) the defender gets to choose targets (unless surprised). That enables the player who has a lot of ships engaged to decide whether to risk the battleships (which have a better chance of receiving less damge) or instead place CAs and Cls in harm's way.

If the few ships are in a high numbered sea box, they are less likely to be engaged in combat, or might surprise the larger force. If the few ships are in a low numbered sea box, then they are likely to be destroyed without inflicting much damage, if any, on the larger force. In any event, the odds are not in their favor of the naval combat being a pleasant experience for the side with fewer ships.

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Post #: 90