Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ?

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Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 2:59:01 AM

Williamb

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Been watching the "Dog fight" videos and other war documentaries. It stuck me that many on the Axis side or even Germany in WWII have legendary status amoung warrior elites in both strategy and tactics.

So I was wondering. Most of us here are Grogs and know are stuff. What leaders amoung the west would we elevate into the catagory of a red Baron or Manstein or Wittmann ? The west won the war so we beat the axis best.

IS there names on the allies sides we should hail as true "warriors" ?

Who would you nominate ?

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 3:18:10 AM

Williamb

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Thiking I might need to get this ball rolling I nominate Chester Nimitz as a grand naval strategst. He made the right call at Midway and showed leadership in helping to rebuild the heavily damaged Pacific Fleet.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 3:43:02 AM

Doggie

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As for American fighter pilots, a lot of them only spent a matter of months in actual combat, and it wasn't a target rich environment for most. A lot of American pilots never laid eyes on an enemy aircraft. Richard Bong, the leading American ace of the war, is believed to have actually shot down many more than the forty Japanese kills he is officially credited with.

Thomas McGuire, the second highest scoring American fighter pilot, scored all of the 38 kills he was officially credited with between August 18, 1943 and January 7, 1945, when he was killed attempting a high G turn at low altitude near a Japanese airfield in the Phillipines. This is a period of some 17 months, and much of that was spent on administrative duties and other routine assignments.

Your average nazi flew until he died or the war ended, which ever came first. And he flew into skies dominated by swarms of allied aircraft. It was a rare German pilot who did not see more allied aircraft that he cared to every time his wheels left the ground.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 5:08:01 AM

Rooster

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I would consider Matt Ridgeway to be a major candidate for "legendary" status for 20th Century U.S. commanders.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 5:44:37 AM

Erik Rutins

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Strictly in terms of their presence in the popular consciousness, such as that held by the Red Baron and say Rommel, you have to go with Pappy Boyington and George S. Patton. As far as a more analytical approach on who would be the right analogues, I'll leave that for you all to discuss.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 6:41:06 AM

freeboy

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Audie Murphy.. He was too young and too puny, the navy and marines and all said, grow up boy. The army took him and he recieved every medal for valor, including the MEDAL of HONOR. He is the WW2 uber infantry man

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 7:07:59 AM

Fredk

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The allies won the war because of our industrial superiorty not because we were better fighers. End of.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/9/2007 2:37:47 PM

captskillet

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Patton, Bradley, Halsey, Nimitz, Puller, Arnold, LeMay, Chenault, Bong, McGuire, Vraciu, Carl.................

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 3:59:34 AM

gunny

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I would not put Bradley in that line up due to his episodes of ineptness..

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 4:53:49 AM

Williamb

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In honesty I was looking for reputation and Skill as the two main qualifiers.

I was wondering who is considered the great leaders or skilled fighters that fought in the 20Th Century. It can be someone who was innovative. Or it can be someone who was extremly skilled.

If you say names like Manstein,Wittmann Guderian, Hans Rudel, Rommel, the Red Baron you are talking about military commanders who have gained a reputation as being either a Genius on their feilds (fairly or unfairly) or being such a great fighter.

I wanted to see who on the other side of the battlefeild we might rank up there with them

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 5:16:12 AM

Jeffrey H.

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Well, the couterpart of the Red Baron would most likely be Eddie Rickenbacher. Guderian was an upstart and something of an outsider,, so his counterpart would be Jimmy Doolittle perhaps ?

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 5:35:07 AM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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The American "Red Baron" was a guy named Chuck Yeager, who, ace though he may have been, is far better known as a test pilot. Their Guderian was even more of a footnote, a guy named Walton Walker. He died in Korea, by the side of a road, I believe, but he was the "real deal," as far as WW2 mobile operations were concerned.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 6:31:58 AM

Twotribes

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Patton beat Rommel. Patton was so well known and the germans believed he was the best general that the US made a fake army with him in command to help fool the entire German military into believing the Normandy landings were a ruse. Only Rommel thought that might not be true.

Chesty Puller in the pacific and again in Korea. "Howling mad" Smith also.

Nimitz for sure.

Sorry do not know a lot about flyers. I do know the Americans didn't get the numbers the axis got in kills because we rotated our people out of combat. Axis couldn't afford to do that.

Audy Murphy was a HERO, but he was an enlisted man that became a Lt. for a short time. He never had any say in anything bigger than tactics at the small unit level.

Eisenhower HAS to be mentioned. as does Marshal. While neither lead troops in direct combat, those two were what fashioned and ran the war in Europe ( and Marshal was involved in the pacific as well).

I can not speak to the Commonwealth or British leaders as I am an American and thats what I tend to read, play or learn about.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 11:12:55 AM

JamesM

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You can not go past Air chief Marshall Dowding for his handling of Fighter command during the battle of Britain.

I have to disagree with Patton, he never had to fight a defensive battle or campaign like Zhukov, Manstein, Slim, Kesselring, Alanbrooke and Foch.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 1:14:26 PM

PunkReaper

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I vote for my dad. volunteered with his mates under age and fought in Falaise in France. Carried his best friend for a mile before finding he was dead then a few days later took a morter shell in his trench and was seriously injured losing the rest of his friends. Came home with massive injuries, married my mum and had 3 sons which he brought up well.....bloody hero

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 2:02:28 PM

m10bob

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I vote for (then) LTC Creighton Abrams of the 4th U.S. Armoured Division, Bn level as a good combat commander who exemplified teamwork and courageous, offensive fighting.
He was a warrior with "more Patton" and less "patent leather"..

I also vote for (then Maj and LTC) Glover S Johns of the 115th U.S. Infantry RCT of the 29th I.D., for the same reasons as above.
(He later was a credited technical advisor for the movie "Patton").

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 2:55:24 PM

Dixie

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In terms of press coverage and fame, the British/Commonwealth Red Baron would be Douglas Bader. In terms of air combats it would be either 'Johnnie' Johnso (38 kills, officially the highest scoring Commonwealth ace, never shot down and only had his plane damaged once) or 'Pat' Pattle (27-44 kills, all gained in a 9 month period against overwhelming odds)

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 7:29:10 PM

Rimrunner

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For a counterpart to the Red Baron, what about Albert Ball (VC)?
At the time, at least, he was almost as famous as Richthofen was infamous,
on the Allied side, and he achieved 44 kills even though he died in 1917,
about a year earlier than the Red Baron (and therefore had less time in
which to make a reputation).
He was awarded the Victoria Cross after shooting down 11 enemy aircraft
during the last 11 days of his life.

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/10/2007 11:56:53 PM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
As far as a more analytical approach on who would be the right analogues, I'll leave that for you all to discuss.

You're one of them computer geeks, aint ya?

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/11/2007 2:55:13 AM

robpost3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

I vote for my dad. volunteered with his mates under age and fought in Falaise in France. Carried his best friend for a mile before finding he was dead then a few days later took a morter shell in his trench and was seriously injured losing the rest of his friends. Came home with massive injuries, married my mum and had 3 sons which he brought up well.....bloody hero

well said!!!!!

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/11/2007 10:13:03 AM

Rimrunner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

You're one of them computer geeks, aint ya?

How unkind, Doggie! He's obviously a well educated Southern gentleman!

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RE: Who are the wests Red baron and Guderian ? - 7/12/2007 1:46:47 PM

Gen Alexandra

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The original question is a good one, as we do remember those Axis Forces Legends as People, where as Allied Legends seem to be equipment or Formations, like �The Big Red ONE� �Spitfire� �P-47� �The Dambusters 617sqn� �Hell on Wheels� to name but a few. But ones I would consider worthy of a mention are the following �Knights� of the sky from WWI. Rene Paul Fonck, Edward Mannock, Raymond Collishaw, James Mcudden and the �The Lafayette Escadrille�. One �ACE� you did not mention from the German side was of course Ernst Udet, one the best ever flyers. From WWII the aptly named Richard Bong comes to mind along with the normal suspects like Patton etc. Also worthy of a mention is �Mad Mike� Calvert who led the Chindts, Malayan Scouts and various SAS Units in Holland. One other worth a mention is of course John Wayne as he personally led the whole of Americas Armed Forces in the Pacific to victory!!!!!