Resolve out of game

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Resolve out of game

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Advanced Tactics Series >> Resolve out of game

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Resolve out of game - 7/12/2007 8:40:18 AM

IAN 1963

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/21/2005
Status: offline

Hi

Would it be possible to have a feature you could set game parameters so that once a combat has about to be resolved you had the option to choose a �Resolve Out Of Game� option. The game would then pause and save and you would be presented with a page of dada units / unit state and a picture of the attacking and defending unit hexes, and all surrounding hexes

This could then be used to resolve the combat using another game system such as, The Campaign Series, Steel Panthers or Combat Mission. Once this was done you could then re-start �Advanced Tactics� and would be given a page of date dialoge boxes to fill in that would feed the results of the combat back into the game.

You would not want to use it every time, or even most times but it would add depth to the game.

Any thoughts
Ian

Post #: 1

RE: Resolve out of game - 7/12/2007 10:05:26 AM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

I am sorry to disapoint you, but this feature is not planned.

(in reply to IAN 1963)

Post #: 2

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/6/2007 9:17:30 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

Thats unfortunate, I would of liked that feature, but would there be a way around it, say like stop the game at that point of contact, then re-edit the game, with the current stats, then as a copy change and resave the stats perhaps

_____________________________

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 3

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/14/2007 10:15:36 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

Could someone inform me please, that if I cant resolve out of game, then would I be able to edit a game that was saved, at a certain spot in the combat, and re-enter that units new strength points, and continue on?

_____________________________

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 4

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/14/2007 11:12:59 AM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

No it is not possible to edit a running game. This would be to great an opportunity for cheating in PBEM games.

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 5

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/14/2007 12:04:49 PM

seille

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

Lol Vic, that�s exactly what i thought about.
For testing scenario�s or unit sets this might be ok, but not for running games.

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 6

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/15/2007 4:50:59 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

I wonder why it was seen fit not include this feature, or was it even thought about?

< Message edited by gazfun -- 9/16/2007 4:57:07 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 7

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/15/2007 1:58:17 PM

Hanal

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline

Personally, I do not see the value of such a request...why would a developer, who has created a unique game engine, then go about figuring out how his battle resolutions can be completed by other game engines which he does not have the rights to? I'm sorry but this has got to be one of the most lamest requests that I have ever seen!

Who posted this request, Bill Belichick?

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 8

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/15/2007 4:51:19 PM

seille

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

Personally, I do not see the value of such a request...

And you�re not alone....AT can calculate combat outcome very well.
Why using other engines ?? In addition how much is the possibility a AT gamer
has these other games ?

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 9

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/15/2007 9:46:04 PM

Awac835

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

I'm sorry but this has got to be one of the most lamest requests that I have ever seen!

Who posted this request, Bill Belichick?

Did you have a bad day or something?

First off yeah it might have been strange if one developer should implement such a feature for another developers game i agree. But the idea behind being able to dive down into the detail, of a particuler battle isnt something taken out of thin air.

Have you ever heard about the game line Total War.
Here you are able to dive into the combat resolution of the strategic map, or have the computer auto resolve.

Im not saying AT should be turned into a TB game and then at battles into a RTS or anything. But some games have taken this approch. Speaking for myself i much preferr if AT stays TB and at the operational level only :D

and actualy with something like XML it should be quite possible to do if two developers would come together and either work out a protocol or write a parser between the two games.

< Message edited by Awac835 -- 9/15/2007 9:50:32 PM >

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 10

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/16/2007 4:31:11 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Personally, I do not see the value of such a request...why would a developer, who has�created a unique game engine, then go about figuring out how his battle resolutions can be completed by other game engines which he does not have the rights to? I'm sorry but this has got to be one of the most lamest requests that I have ever seen!�

Who posted this request, Bill Belichick?

You are completley out of line fella!
First of all whats wrong with using another software for detailed combat, and as far as having Rights to anything is absurd, you went there alone all by yourself, so you will deserve all you get back from that.
Ever heard of a export file, where you have the units involved in the combat export a notepad file where you can edit the notepad file, and re-enter the stats after a playing the battle in a Third Party software, of miniture battle?
As this game seems to me that you can make your own games, where there is the possibility, just slighty mind you where units represented are Division, or larger?

I was also looking into other possibilities, of re-editing etc, so I was trying to understand how I can do something. So What I had in mind (as Im not into mind reading), I was hoping for people with a broader understanding than what you responded with, and I sure hope that you have nothing to do, with the production team on this, or it will be certainly lacking in a depth that is required for such an enterprise.

And thank you AWAC 835 for putting a bit of sanity, into the discussion.

< Message edited by gazfun -- 9/16/2007 5:44:11 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 11

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/16/2007 6:17:03 PM

PDiFolco

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline

Personnally I don't give a dime for this feature, when I play an op/strat game I don't want to play a tac game...And when I want to play a tac game.. well you can figure

Plus it's "theoricallt inconsistent", as the "father" game can't know what params it should use for the child game - how does it model morale, ammo, etc.. ?
If not done properly this'll make the results inconsistent with what would have been obtained with the "parent" game system.
Only exception is games made from the start to be "parent" to some existing game systems : eg TAS for Fighting Steel, CMC (if ever it's finished) for CM...or the SP meta campaigns. Those are just an additional layer for a game, not "real" games in themselves.

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 12

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 4:08:40 AM

william64

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/30/2007
Status: offline

This game is going to be mostly played with PBEM. For every person who wants to ask for such a feature, there are 2 to 3 people who will be able to use this to cheat during a game.

This game gives you the opportunity to edit your units before the game starts. The idea of being able to edit a game in the middle is an easy way for people to cheat in the middle of a game. The only reason I would like a feature like this was if I was playing a random game by myself. It would be nice to be able to edit a random game on the fly, but what you are asking for opens the door to too much garbage.

The fact that you care so much about it tells me that you are one of those who would know how to take advantage of it.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 13

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 9:19:55 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: william64

This game is going to be mostly played with PBEM.� For every person who wants to ask for such a feature, there are 2 to 3 people who will be able to use this to cheat during a game.�

This game gives you the opportunity to edit your units before the game starts.� The idea of being able to edit a game in the middle is an easy way for people to cheat in the middle of a game.� The only reason I would like a feature like this was if I was playing a random game by myself.� It would be nice to be able to edit a random game on the fly, but what you are asking for opens the door to too much garbage.

The fact that you care so much about it tells me that you are one of those who would know how to take advantage of it.

Well that certainly is a negative response!
This feature will be incorporated in EiA and its not viewed as an opportunity to cheat, in fact it would be pointless for anyone to do so for they would be #1 target, for doing so.
Do you have anything to do with the testing or producing of this software? I dont suppose not.
Im helping in testing in EiA and this is a good feature.
If someone of authority would be kind enough to answer the question, I have raised?

_____________________________

(in reply to william64)

Post #: 14

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 10:52:57 AM

Awac835

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: william64

This game is going to be mostly played with PBEM. For every person who wants to ask for such a feature, there are 2 to 3 people who will be able to use this to cheat during a game.

This game gives you the opportunity to edit your units before the game starts. The idea of being able to edit a game in the middle is an easy way for people to cheat in the middle of a game. The only reason I would like a feature like this was if I was playing a random game by myself. It would be nice to be able to edit a random game on the fly, but what you are asking for opens the door to too much garbage.

The fact that you care so much about it tells me that you are one of those who would know how to take advantage of it.

The fact that you oppose this feature so strongly tells me you are one of those people who already know how to reverse engineer a game and hack in your own cheats!!! so you dont want others with less skills being able to cheat against you, cheating against them...
I BET THAT IS THE CASE... CHEAT... CHEATER!!!!

on a more serious note...

Why on earth would requesting such a feature make anyone a cheater???

(in reply to william64)

Post #: 15

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 12:47:27 PM

Hertston

Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: william64

The fact that you care so much about it tells me that you are one of those who would know how to take advantage of it.

BS. In fact, rarely have I seen so much total BS in one thread.

Right then, let's expose some of it. First up, Ian makes an excellent suggestion. If the devs don't believe there is sufficient demand for it to be implemented, or indeed share the ludicrous paranoia regarding cheating of other posters (more on that later), I can accept that.. but nevertheless it's a good idea.

First up, there are a lot of people who would appreciate this feature, including me. I have asked for much the same thing in connection with a couple of other games here. For example, it was the need for such an operational with detailed tactical combo set-up that led to the development of the (sadly ill fated, it seems) Combat Mission Campaigns. In addition to the possibility of using tactical computer games to resolve battles there is another 'biggie' - miniatures. Many miniature gamers are crying out for an operational framework in which they can place their tabletop tables, and this feature would provide just that.

quote:

Personally, I do not see the value of such a request...why would a developer, who has created a unique game engine, then go about figuring out how his battle resolutions can be completed by other game engines which he does not have the rights to? I'm sorry but this has got to be one of the most lamest requests that I have ever seen!

It is your response that is 'lame'. Re-read the first post; all that is involved is manual data input. Rights to game engines are irrelevant, there is no mix of code or a direct import of files. The player just types in numbers, they can determine the transfer parameters themselves. It could be from tactical computer games, miniatures or, if they were so inclined, throwing a few dice. Or, indeed, what you think they should be if you are using the system to explore a few historical what-ifs rather than gaming in the usual sense.

quote:

In addition how much is the possibility a AT gamer has these other games ?

I have no idea. Some will have them. Some might even buy them.. SPWaW is free and the Campaign Series isn't exactly expensive. You can buy all three first gen CM games for $25 if you look around. As their use would be totally optional, and the idea doesn't require particular games anyway, the question is irrelevant.

Now, cheating. I have no idea what gaming background some of you guys come from, but try asking yourself an honest question - how big will the Advanced Tactics PBEM community be after a couple of months? While I wish every success for this game, I doubt it will reach three figures (sales will be a lot more, obviously!!). Most regular players will have regular opponents, all of whom they would trust not to cheat in the same way I trust all those with whom I PBEM. The number of cheaters would be minimal.. and if you can't spot the odd rogue from the way a series of games go you probably have insufficient skill to beat them anyway. In FPS and RTS games cheating is a big problem. In war and strategy games with a small, close-knit community it is a minimal problem in my experience. If you are worried about cheating on the scale suggested here, you are playing with the wrong people. There's no money at stake, even even any prestige worth talking about. Try trusting a few people. If they let you down it's their loss, not yours.

Bah....

< Message edited by Hertston -- 9/20/2007 12:53:48 PM >

(in reply to william64)

Post #: 16

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 1:49:49 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

I dont want to give any judgement about if a game should support out of game resolve. AT will not.

About cheating i do have an opinion. And i speak from personal experience. It is so easy and tempting (and i actually did it in the past) to restart a turn if an initial combat result does not quite go your way that i see it as neccessary self protection to add cheat protection for PBEM.

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 17

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 5:57:52 PM

seille

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

And i enjoy such a protection very much since it gives me a good feeling the other guy has to fight the fair way and can�t
redo turns or something like this that easy.
I have big problems wasting my time with opponents who doesn�t play fair. I never can enjoy such a game and i can�t continue playing
these guy�s.

And sorry to say it again, but that "resolve out of game" sounds like a great backdoor for cheaters.

Yes, I do not trust anybody !

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 18

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/20/2007 6:16:16 PM

Hertston

Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

And sorry to say it again, but that "resolve out of game" sounds like a great backdoor for cheaters.

It's rather an academic point as it isn't going to happen, but there's no reason whatsoever why it should be. Just code it as an option.. uncheck the box and its disabled, and no 'backdoor' to anybody. As with several other games, you just select how you wish to resolve tactical combat before you start.

I'd point as as well that if combat is resolved out of game, it's assumed that both players will be participating in the tactical combat resolution and will know what the result of the combat was. The 'backdoor' originates from gazfun's suggestion for an alternative to the original suggestion as that isn't going to happen, not the original suggestion itself.

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 19

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/21/2007 9:29:31 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

I dont want to give any judgement about if a game should support out of game resolve. AT will not.

About cheating i do have an opinion. And i speak from personal experience. It is so easy and tempting (and i actually did it in the past) to restart a turn if an initial combat result does not quite go your way that i see it as neccessary self protection to add cheat protection for PBEM.

Could you answer me this question, do you have anything to do with the making of this title?

< Message edited by gazfun -- 9/21/2007 9:31:28 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 20

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/21/2007 9:44:05 AM

therockyfroggy

Posts: 57
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun
Could you answer me this question, do you have anything to do with the making of this title?

He's the programmer/designer.

I personally have no issue with someone asking if that feature is in the game but I think it's a bit retarded to hammer the "man" about it over and over...it's not in there, go play somewhere else.

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 21

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/21/2007 12:41:04 PM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: therockyfroggy

quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun
Could you answer me this question, do you have anything to do with the making of this title?

He's the programmer/designer.

I personally have no issue with someone asking if that feature is in the game but I think it's a bit retarded to hammer the "man" about it over and over...it's not in there, go play somewhere else.

Im just asking straight forward questions, Im sorry if you find my questions a threat.

_____________________________

(in reply to therockyfroggy)

Post #: 22

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/21/2007 1:50:06 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

Yes i am the designer. I'll see if i can update my forum profile a bit so its a bit more obvious :)

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 23

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/22/2007 3:38:40 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

Ok thank you for that.
You see our group are looking for a software package where the "Resolve out of game" is available in Napoleonics, as Ive mentioned, and we where hoping as this is still not been released, we where hoping as this can be a generic type of editing game, that we could use it this way, you have certain beleives to why you did not include it, thats fine, ..........my serach continues

_____________________________

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 24

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/22/2007 6:22:27 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

At this moment i am not including any featurs anymore anyway, but i do remember all feature requests.

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 25

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/26/2007 2:53:44 AM

william64

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/30/2007
Status: offline

Actually, I am a computer science major about one year from becoming a computer programmer. I am sure that you have heard of the term scope creep. The fact that you admit doing some work for another company regarding this feature says something in and of itself. One of the worse things a company can do is allow too much scope creep into a project.

If they were to make the fatal mistake of paying you any mind whatsoever, then the scope creep would probably push them way over budget and another 2 to 3 months behind schedule.

I don't think of myself as negative. I think of myself as a realist. When someone comes to you that works for your competition and insist that you do things the way they want, then you should be very suspicious about their motives.

Allow me to share with you a secret that will help you in games and in life. There is not one war game that has to have any one specific feature. It is a fact that not one war game will have every feature you want. The secret to war games, and combat in general for that matter as well as life over all, is to identify the problem, and then to come up with a plan to overcome the problem. The only thing you need after that is the discipline and competence to execute that winning problem solving plan with the greatest proficiency possible.

Finally, the fact that you do some work for other games, says that you are one that can take advantage of such a feature. Obviously, you won't be able to get away with this against experienced programmers, but you would be able to totally rape normal human beings who just want to have a good time. Nobody wants a game that some can easily cheat with.

I just hope Vic can see through you as easily as I can. Vic, stay strong and do the game that you want to do. I am behind you 100%

(in reply to gazfun)

Post #: 26

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/26/2007 3:02:16 AM

william64

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/30/2007
Status: offline

I must admit in about a year and a half, I probably could cheat, but I wouldn't even bother. I won't have my computer science degree till another 15 months have passed, so I am unable and unwilling to cheat.

As for how can a person cheat using this feature, I am not even going to give people ideas. There are some things that are real obvious that can be used to a person's advantage doing this type of thing.

The bottom line is if you are going to have this kind of feature, then you also have to have all kinds of built in features to block abuses. This game was originally supposed to come out before September. Now, they are hoping for getting it done before the end of October. I suspect the motives of anyone at this point who would insist on a feature that would make this game take any longer to come out than it already will.

(in reply to Awac835)

Post #: 27

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/26/2007 3:08:00 AM

william64

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/30/2007
Status: offline

Neither do I!!!!!!!!!

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 28

RE: Resolve out of game - 9/26/2007 9:13:04 AM

gazfun

Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: william64

Actually, I am a computer science major about one year from becoming a computer programmer. I am sure that you have heard of the term scope creep. The fact that you admit doing some work for another company regarding this feature says something in and of itself. One of the worse things a company can do is allow too much scope creep into a project.

If they were to make the fatal mistake of paying you any mind whatsoever, then the scope creep would probably push them way over budget and another 2 to 3 months behind schedule.

I don't think of myself as negative. I think of myself as a realist. When someone comes to you that works for your competition and insist that you do things the way they want, then you should be very suspicious about their motives.

Allow me to share with you a secret that will help you in games and in life. There is not one war game that has to have any one specific feature. It is a fact that not one war game will have every feature you want. The secret to war games, and combat in general for that matter as well as life over all, is to identify the problem, and then to come up with a plan to overcome the problem. The only thing you need after that is the discipline and competence to execute that winning problem solving plan with the greatest proficiency possible.

Finally, the fact that you do some work for other games, says that you are one that can take advantage of such a feature. Obviously, you won't be able to get away with this against experienced programmers, but you would be able to totally rape normal human beings who just want to have a good time. Nobody wants a game that some can easily cheat with.

I just hope Vic can see through you as easily as I can. Vic, stay strong and do the game that you want to do. I am behind you 100%

Then you are saying the same thing to a person who has programmed EiANW Marshall Ellis that game in another forum, which will have this feature, I suggest you take care in what you say.
You are the one keeping this going, I thought it was dead, but if you want more?
Vic I suggest that this is going a bit to far dont you think?