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Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking Limits

 
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Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking Limits - 7/14/2007 2:00:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I did the first page for this tutorial months ago and haven't gotten around to the remaining 7 pages. However, this came up in email correspondence with Patrice, so I thought I would post it for everyone to see.




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RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 8/30/2007 11:21:09 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here is # 8.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 2
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 8/31/2007 12:02:39 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is # 8.

Steve, I upgraded this one, you can post the upgraded version.

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Post #: 3
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 8/31/2007 1:46:03 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is # 8.

Steve, I upgraded this one, you can post the upgraded version.

Ok.




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_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 4
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 8/31/2007 2:16:21 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is # 8.

Steve, I upgraded this one, you can post the upgraded version.

Ok.

No no, there is a later update (uploaded a few hours ago) that got rid of the green lights and green outlines .

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 5
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 1:42:39 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Patrice and I are back at work on finishing up the Introductory tutorials. Patrice wanted to rework the first page's graphics completely. Its content hasn't changed though.




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Steve

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Post #: 6
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 1:43:52 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		2nd and last in the series. And here is a new page.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 7
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 8:44:03 AM   
Largus_Means


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/10/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, this may seem redundant, but is it possible to have every hex that has a ZOC exerted into be hi-lited somehow? That way upon looking at the map you can see quickly and efficently the exact layout of what is happening in terms of supply and movement. For each major power you could shade the hex the same color as that country, just very lightly, but visable. Have it as a toggleable option. And hexes that were contested with dual ZOCs have as a unique color?

Just thoughts to make the wealth of information you look at in this game easier to digest. Any others have a follow-up thought about this>?

Cheers

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 8
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 12:47:52 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Largus_Means

Ok, this may seem redundant, but is it possible to have every hex that has a ZOC exerted into be hi-lited somehow? That way upon looking at the map you can see quickly and efficently the exact layout of what is happening in terms of supply and movement. For each major power you could shade the hex the same color as that country, just very lightly, but visable. Have it as a toggleable option. And hexes that were contested with dual ZOCs have as a unique color?

Just thoughts to make the wealth of information you look at in this game easier to digest. Any others have a follow-up thought about this>?

Cheers

Just to note that the "Z" that you see in those pictures are added to the screenshots. The game does not show "Z" in the ZoC hexes.

(in reply to Largus_Means)
Post #: 9
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 5:33:50 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		perhaps a simple shading effect on hexes within ZOC would work. Maybe a 20% Grey effect.

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Post #: 10
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 8:10:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

perhaps a simple shading effect on hexes within ZOC would work. Maybe a 20% Grey effect.

This isn't even on my task list. It's a player aid that never seemed to be required in any over-the-board game I played (WIF FE or otherwise).

If you are a beginner, you shouldn't be playing with a lot of optional rules, so every(?) land unit in the game has a ZOC. This only gets tricky if there are divisional and special units - like saved oil points, supply units, partisans, and so forth. But if you are using all those optional rules, you should know what you are doing.

Adding more tasks (machine cycles) to screen refresh is unattractive too.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 11
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/30/2007 11:07:45 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

perhaps a simple shading effect on hexes within ZOC would work. Maybe a 20% Grey effect.

This isn't even on my task list. It's a player aid that never seemed to be required in any over-the-board game I played (WIF FE or otherwise).

If you are a beginner, you shouldn't be playing with a lot of optional rules, so every(?) land unit in the game has a ZOC. This only gets tricky if there are divisional and special units - like saved oil points, supply units, partisans, and so forth. But if you are using all those optional rules, you should know what you are doing.

Adding more tasks (machine cycles) to screen refresh is unattractive too.


I am not a beginner and and my first wargame was I believe 3rd Riech (original edition) or was it "1776" published by Avalon Hill. Anyways for a turorial some simple shading on a static portion of a map to explain ZOC to beginners could be invaluable to explain the concept. I should have explaied I was not suggesting you add ZOC shading to the game itself. Instead my thought was just add some simple shading to a static bitmap to show hexes within a ZOC for explanation in the tutorial.


_____________________________

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Post #: 12
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 12/31/2007 12:16:52 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

perhaps a simple shading effect on hexes within ZOC would work. Maybe a 20% Grey effect.

This isn't even on my task list. It's a player aid that never seemed to be required in any over-the-board game I played (WIF FE or otherwise).

If you are a beginner, you shouldn't be playing with a lot of optional rules, so every(?) land unit in the game has a ZOC. This only gets tricky if there are divisional and special units - like saved oil points, supply units, partisans, and so forth. But if you are using all those optional rules, you should know what you are doing.

Adding more tasks (machine cycles) to screen refresh is unattractive too.


I am not a beginner and and my first wargame was I believe 3rd Riech (original edition) or was it "1776" published by Avalon Hill. Anyways for a turorial some simple shading on a static portion of a map to explain ZOC to beginners could be invaluable to explain the concept. I should have explaied I was not suggesting you add ZOC shading to the game itself. Instead my thought was just add some simple shading to a static bitmap to show hexes within a ZOC for explanation in the tutorial.


Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood. Changes to the tutorial is precisely why I posted these: we're looking for ways to make them better.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 13
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 8:05:39 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

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Post #: 14
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 8:21:30 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		IIRC, CWiF came with a switch/toggle that displays hex ownership. (In the mini map, I think it showed hex control by national colors.) This feature could be turned on for the tutorial walkthrough...

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 15
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 8:26:33 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

perhaps a simple shading effect on hexes within ZOC would work. Maybe a 20% Grey effect.

One of the things being taught in the tutorial is that a ZOC extends through a hexside. If we just highlight the hex, that hexside information will be lost.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 16
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 8:28:24 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

How about a smaller font and ZOC instead of Z? Would that help do you think?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 17
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 8:36:35 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

IIRC, CWiF came with a switch/toggle that displays hex ownership. (In the mini map, I think it showed hex control by national colors.) This feature could be turned on for the tutorial walkthrough...

All of that still exists, but hex ownership is different from hexes within a ZOC.

Thinking in the abstract, a ZOC "radiates out" from a hex. Sort of like a spider with six legs extending into adjacent hexes. I haven't thought of or seen a visual image that does that well yet. But, ...

A hexagon can be decomposed into 6 equilateral triangles. One possibiliity is to exploit that fact in combination with a unit radiating a ZOC into an adjacent hex: the ZOC would be shown affecting the equilateral triangle on the border of the hex creating the ZOC. The image is still not clear to me though - I'm just kicking around ideas.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 18
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 8:51:57 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

Steve, maybe you could show them what the "hex highlight" version looked like ?

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 19
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 10:16:48 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

How about a smaller font and ZOC instead of Z? Would that help do you think?


Smaller font, "ZOC" instead of "Z" should both help. A colour other than white would also help. That would probably be sufficient. If the unit has ZOCs into adjacent hexes maybe also have arrows pointing into the hexes with the ZOC notifier at the pointy end?

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Post #: 20
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 11:07:41 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

Steve, maybe you could show them what the "hex highlight" version looked like ?

Alas, I have no hex highlight version.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 21
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/2/2008 11:13:00 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

How about a smaller font and ZOC instead of Z? Would that help do you think?


Smaller font, "ZOC" instead of "Z" should both help. A colour other than white would also help. That would probably be sufficient. If the unit has ZOCs into adjacent hexes maybe also have arrows pointing into the hexes with the ZOC notifier at the pointy end?

Arrows would be preferrec but then the text should be aligned with the arrow, which is hard to do (even harder is to get it to look nice).

For this situation I think of font colors as basically two: dark and light. There is a lot going on in any screen shot of units on the map, and regardless of which color you select, there will be dark and light backgrounds against which it needs to be visible. So you are doomed whichever you choose. You point out that white on Clear is hard to read but that will be true for almost any light color (Clear is a composite of light colors). Dark/black against mountain hexes has the same problem.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 22
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 12:19:50 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

Steve, maybe you could show them what the "hex highlight" version looked like ?

Alas, I have no hex highlight version.

It was this one, that I sent you in the first place.




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Post #: 23
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 3:08:49 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I think "ZoC" would be best, rather than shading. The example on the Rumanian front suffers from 'busyness' with so many units and ZoCs being shown at once, but really I think most people could get it all figured out once they made it this far.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 24
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 6:59:54 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I think black would show up well even on the mountain hexes. I freely admit that I could be mistaken in that regard.

And now that I look at the pictures a bit more, I think maybe either arrows or the words are the way to go, but not both. As long as the tutorial says that the units have ZoCs into the hexes/over the hexsides they have arrows pointing into or "ZoC" in, it should be pretty clear.

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Post #: 25
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 9:56:05 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

Steve, maybe you could show them what the "hex highlight" version looked like ?

Alas, I have no hex highlight version.

It was this one, that I sent you in the first place.





I really like the hex highlight for ZOC presented here. For teaching and illustrative purposes it seems pretty clear.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 26
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 10:48:37 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I find the white "Z"s rather hard to read on the clear terrain tiles. Maybe they should be a different colour, or as abj9562 suggests some sort of highlighting scheme be devised for the tutorials.

Steve, maybe you could show them what the "hex highlight" version looked like ?

Alas, I have no hex highlight version.

It was this one, that I sent you in the first place.





I really like the hex highlight for ZOC presented here. For teaching and illustrative purposes it seems pretty clear.

It makes all the terrain look different.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 27
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 10:52:40 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
It makes all the terrain look different.

Yes, this is why I like it the least.
I prefer the white Z markers over the shaded one, and over the ZoC word, as ZoC is too long to stand confortable in all 6 places near the hexsides as I have placed the Z.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 28
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/3/2008 11:46:47 PM   
Toed

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I also like the clarity of the single Z. Perhaps you should add the Z showing control the the own hex for the units that also extend zoc to other hexes to avoid even the slightest risk of missunderstandings.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 29
RE: Tutorial #8 Zones of Control Hex Control & Stacking... - 1/4/2008 5:48:56 PM   
JagdFlanker


Posts: 689
Joined: 7/26/2003
From: Halifax, Canada
Status: offline 		tried this for fun - looks ok, but doesn't look like it's any improvement.

the only other way i can think of is to have arrows coming the the moving units to a "stop sign" in any hex which is in the enemy ZOC, since that might have less clutter than just detailing every unit's ZOC




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< Message edited by Flanker Leader -- 1/4/2008 5:50:23 PM >

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Post #: 30
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