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OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 3:09:41 AM   
grumpyman


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Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I went to the book store today to find a book about the Pacific War. I really did not find much. I see a long list at amazon but I hate buying a book before I can thumb through it without a recommendation. I have read already "The rising Sun" by John Toland and "The Pacific War" by John Costello. Can anyone recommend any other book that encompasses the whole war?
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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 3:23:48 AM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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Status: offline 		Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific by Eric M. Bergerud

And then I advice you to go to the details... there are some things you can't understand fully at the high level if you don't know what is possible or not at the basic level. It's one thing to see logistical problems at theater scale, and another to read the diary of men experiencing shortages day after day.. and I speak of Allied troops away from battle...

To get immerged, I will advice you to start with Sledge's book about Marines in Peleliu and Okinawa.


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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 3:45:40 AM   
grumpyman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific by Eric M. Bergerud

And then I advice you to go to the details... there are some things you can't understand fully at the high level if you don't know what is possible or not at the basic level. It's one thing to see logistical problems at theater scale, and another to read the diary of men experiencing shortages day after day.. and I speak of Allied troops away from battle...

To get immerged, I will advice you to start with Sledge's book about Marines in Peleliu and Okinawa.




I have read a few lower level books, "Guadacanal" by Richard B. Frank being one. I have just looked at Bergerund's book on amazon. It does look interesting and I will most likely order it. By the description on amazon, this book is about the air war in the Pacific?

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 3:54:10 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		On the whole war, "The Eagle against the Sun", by Ronald Spectre.

On the naval air war, "Fast Carriers" by Charles G Reynolds.

On the PNG campaign "A Bastard of a Place" by Peter Brune.

On amphibous operations generally, "Accross the Reef" by Victor J Croziat

On the Burma front, "The Forgotten Army" by an author whose name I have regretfully forgotten.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 4:17:35 AM   
ctangus


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Status: offline 		Toland & Costello have the two best comprehensive histories I've run across so you're off to a good start.

I agree with Amiral - Bergerud's Fire in the Sky gives a great understanding of how & why the real WitP - particularly the real war in the South Pacific - came about. I also agree that Sledge's book (With the Old Breed I think it's called) gives a good understanding of what it was like on the ground. Bergerud has another book, Touched with Fire, which gives a good understanding of that as well.

While none of these cover the whole war, here's a few others that I learned a lot from:

Blair - Silent Victory - Comprehensive history of USN sub ops.
Lundstrom - First Team - Early USN carrier ops in exquisite detail.
Parshall & Tully - Shattered Sword - Sheds new light on Midway, particularly from the IJN POV. Really gives you a feel for what it was like to be there on the Kido Butai that day.
Hornfischer - Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors - Focuses on the escorts of Taffy 3 during the Battle off Samar. Like the above book it really gives a good feel for what it was like to be there (as much as you can 60 years later).
Webster - The Burma Road - concise history of military ops in the Burma theater
Layton - And I was There - some self-interest shows through, but still a good review of code-breaking & other intelligence activities.

I could name a few more, but those have been among the most informative for me.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 4:31:09 AM   
ctangus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

On the Burma front, "The Forgotten Army" by an author whose name I have regretfully forgotten.


Bayly & Harper. (I forgot too - I had to google it. ) Definitely another good one. More of a political history than a military history but extremely eye-opening - at least for me.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 7:31:06 AM   
Rybeck

 

Posts: 110
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From: Menlo Park, CA
Status: offline 		For a good general reference, I've found Dan Van Der Vat's The Pacific Campaign, the U.S.-Japanese naval war 1941-1945 to be useful too.

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Post #: 7
RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 7:48:55 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		Another good general history of the Pacific war is The Eagle and the Rising Sun by Alan Schom.

One thing I've learned is that you can never read enough about this theatre of war...

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 6:27:41 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Status: offline 		Paul S. Dull's A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy

Not the most scintillating read, but comprehensive.

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Post #: 9
RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 6:45:33 PM   
MineSweeper


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Status: offline 		Any good books on the Royal Navy's eastern fleet....?

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 7:06:15 PM   
sprior


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Status: offline 		For Burma I would recommend Burma The Longest War

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 7:38:23 PM   
Yava


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Any good books on the Royal Navy's eastern fleet....?


Would really like to find out more about this topic that you have mentioned...

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 7:46:46 PM   
sprior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Any good books on the Royal Navy's eastern fleet....?


I've looked really hard and only ever found The RN's Far Flung adventures as a sort of "if we must" added at the end of other books.


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Post #: 13
RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 8:44:31 PM   
CaptDave

 

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From: Federal Way, WA
Status: offline 		Not too long ago Jerome Hagen put out a series of three books titled "War in the Pacific" (how appropriate!).  He is a retired USMC general, but I forget at what level.  Anyway, these books provide a number of seemingly-well-researched details of the sort that you don't find in most books -- if I could ever remember to look, they provide some insight into last week's question about the civilians in Singapore.  If you can get past the jingoism, there is some good information in these.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 9:09:12 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Another good general history of the Pacific war is The Eagle and the Rising Sun by Alan Schom.

One thing I've learned is that you can never read enough about this theatre of war...


I just checked this one out from the local library on Sunday. I've barely started into it, but it's nice to see a recommendation for it. Thanks!

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 10:12:26 PM   
niceguy2005


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Status: offline 		Nice thread. Any chance we can include this in the "must read thread" sticky?

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/17/2007 11:31:25 PM   
Tiornu

 

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quote:

Any good books on the Royal Navy's eastern fleet....?
I believe Winton's The Forgotten Fleet is usually considered the best source on the BPF late in the war.

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Post #: 17
RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 12:35:53 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
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Status: offline 		Few of the grand summaries are worth a toss. I'd avoid Bergerud's Fire in the Sky. "Touched with Fire" is somewhat better but really not up to par with other theater-dedicated studies.

For a general history, if you are really unfamiliar with the Pacific War but have already read Toland, I'd recommend H.P. Wilmott's series. IDNR whether Barrier and the Javelin is first or second but they're all pretty good general summaries.

After that just dive into really specific theatre-dedicated studies. All of the general summaries are flawed to varying degrees with myths of one kind or another that the specific unit histories or campaign histories explicitlty debunk or that obviously contradict the old myths.

I'll name some must-read picks:

Central and SOPAC theater:
Guadalcanal by Richard Frank
The First Team, vols 1 and 2, by John Lundstrom
Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tully
Munda Trail by Eric Hammel

Phillippines:
MacArthur and Defeat in the Phillippines by Richard Connaughton
Lt. Ramsey's War by E.P. Ramsey and Stephen Rivele
Corregidor: The Rock Force Assault by E.M. Flanagan
The Battle for Manila by Cannaughton et al.

Late War:
Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors by James Hornfischer
Downfall by Richard Frank
Tennozan by George Feifer
With the Old Breed by E.B. Sledge

Other:
Combined Fleet Decoded by John Prados
Burma: The Longest War
A Flying Tiger's Diary by Charles Bond
Ship of Ghosts by James Hornfischer
The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang
Pigboat 39 by Bobette Gugliotta
Clear the Bridge! by Richard O'Kane
The war journal of Major Damon "Rocky" Gause by Damon Gause
The Lonely Ships by E.P. Hoyt



< Message edited by mdiehl -- 7/18/2007 12:39:53 AM >

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 12:55:29 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

I'd avoid Bergerud's Fire in the Sky.


Why avoid Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky"? It's a good read and provides a good discussion of the trials and tribulations of the air war in the South Pacific. "Touched with Fire" deals with the land campaign by the same author.

Chez

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 1:01:09 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Just finished "The Thousand-Mile War" on the Aleutian campaign. Limited use for OOB work, but good background and human insight. The place was basically Guadalcanal, but cold instead of hot.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 1:04:26 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Why avoid Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky"?


Because it's to a high degree redundant with both Frank's Guadalcanal and Lundstroms's 1st Team V1 and V2, andbecause it seems to me like an "afterthought" volume cobbled together from the bits and pieces of "Touched With Fire" research that were discarded when that volume was written. Indeed there are even some verbatim repititious passages in FiTS that occur in TwF.

Fire in the Sky is just really weak. Not appalingly badly written nor egregiously inaccaurate but not a standout in any respect. Very reliant on anecdotes, doesn't really provide a good "look and feel" for the period it covers, and doesn't really achieve anything useful or insightful by way of analysis.

I concur with prior poster's recommendation of Blair's study of US Submarine operations.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 7/18/2007 1:06:44 AM >

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 1:31:21 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

Fire in the Sky is just really weak. Not appalingly badly written nor egregiously inaccaurate but not a standout in any respect. Very reliant on anecdotes, doesn't really provide a good "look and feel" for the period it covers, and doesn't really achieve anything useful or insightful by way of analysis.


The book was never intended to be a definitive and exhaustive account of war in the South Pacific, As Bergerud himself states in the preface (page xvii), "This book is not a standard narrative history... Because the narrative groundwork has been done, I have not tried to create another account of the war in the South Pacific as viewed by important military commanders. Instead, aided by dozens of original interviews with American and Anzac veterans of the conflict, I have tried to examine and explain the war's texture and tempo.... I have tried to find the point where the coherence of war meets the brutal experience that confronts those who fight it. In other words, rather than treating the struggle as a chess match between rival leaders, I have tried to reconstruct and cast light upon the flow of battle... but the core of my book concerns the men who fought the war, the weapons they used, how they viewed the events, and the nature of the battlefield where they tended to do their forbidding task."

And it does that quite well... from the little guy's POV. It doesn't attempt to provide a detailed analysis of each air battle instead it does define the battles in terms of the men who actually fought them. And it does provide a good description of many of the air bases, Allied and Japanese. That's what makes it a good read.

Certainly not a book to be "avoided."

Chez

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 2:01:11 AM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 2:18:57 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.



To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

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Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 2:25:37 AM   
Terminus


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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 2:50:44 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
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From: Boston, Mass.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Why avoid Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky"?


Because it's to a high degree redundant with both Frank's Guadalcanal and Lundstroms's 1st Team V1 and V2, andbecause it seems to me like an "afterthought" volume cobbled together from the bits and pieces of "Touched With Fire" research that were discarded when that volume was written. Indeed there are even some verbatim repititious passages in FiTS that occur in TwF.


There's certainly some redundancy with Frank and Lundstrom, but he takes a completely different approach. And yes, there were at least half a dozen duplicate passages in Bergerud's two books (that I noticed).

quote:

Fire in the Sky is just really weak. Not appalingly badly written nor egregiously inaccaurate but not a standout in any respect. Very reliant on anecdotes, doesn't really provide a good "look and feel" for the period it covers, and doesn't really achieve anything useful or insightful by way of analysis.


I got a different impression myself. I felt it did provide a good "look and feel" for a book of it's scope. Certainly individual biographies or unit histories do better in that regard. I also thought it was insightful in terms of how & why the South Pac war developed the way it did, the mistakes the Japanese made and ultimately how & why the allies ultimately established air supremacy in the theater.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 2:57:54 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

I do not share the opinion that it does a compelling job representing the air war from the position of the low ranking people who fought it.



To each his own... but war without the human story is just numbers... nothing more.

Chez

I have to agree. Many of the personal accounts contain detail that you just can't find in the statistics. I'm not referring to "color" here, but the details about how the war was actually fought by those who fought it. Numbers and statistics are important to, but only tell half the story.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 2:59:01 AM   
Skyros


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Status: offline 		Pig Boat 39 was excellent! it gives you a good idea of what service in the Phillipines was like before the war and what a pain in the ass the S boats were to maintain.

A good read, a friend at work who spent 20 years in the modern Navy loved it because it reminded him as to what had not changed in over sixty years.

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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 1:26:12 PM   
captskillet


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Status: offline 		Even though it covers the entire war just cull the volumes that cover the Atlantic or Med..............

History of the United States Naval Operations in World War II, 14 Volumes (Hardcover)
by Samuel Eliot Morrison


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RE: OT: books about the pacific war - 7/18/2007 4:37:04 PM   
sprior


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Status: offline 		And to get really specific Middlebrook's Loss of POW and Repulse is an excellent read, as are nearly all his books

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