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Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 11:02:55 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Hello,

I was posting this to Harry Rowland a couple of days ago, discussing another matter (pilots), but drifting from the discussion :

*********************************
Also, I'd love if the computer game allowed for Pilots to earn exerience.
- Pilots begin as green pilots (-1 to all factors except range - minimum 1).
- After their first (or second) involvement in a combat they become normal pilots.
- After 5 more involvements in combats they become aces (+1 to all factors except range).
- After 20 total involvements in combats, they become cracks (+2 to all factors except range - maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best).
*********************************

And he answered :
*********************************
Sounds an excellent idea for the computer game Patrice. Have you suggested it to Matrix?
*********************************

So why not add something like that : Experience of Crews. This seems trivial to add to the game, from a programming point of view.

This could also be used for the Army and the Navy, having Crews' Experience raise with combat experience, and modify the counter's factors (except movement & range).
Post #: 1
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 11:19:25 AM   
christo

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 11/24/2005
From: adelaide, australia
Status: offline 		Normally I would be against this as not being a true reflection of the boardgame but given Harry's response it certainly warrants discussion. Planes would be a natural given the nature of (almost) single combat but how would you propose that this is translated to the army/ navy? On a battleship for example there is such a range of experience that it would not seem appropriate. The land forces though, could easily be -1 combat factor on the turn that they arrive on map to +1 after ?? 6 turns with white print / elite units immune.

Christo

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 2
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 11:53:05 AM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hello,

I was posting this to Harry Rowland a couple of days ago, discussing another matter (pilots), but drifting from the discussion :

*********************************
Also, I'd love if the computer game allowed for Pilots to earn exerience.
- Pilots begin as green pilots (-1 to all factors except range - minimum 1).
- After their first (or second) involvement in a combat they become normal pilots.
- After 5 more involvements in combats they become aces (+1 to all factors except range).
- After 20 total involvements in combats, they become cracks (+2 to all factors except range - maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best).
*********************************

And he answered :
*********************************
Sounds an excellent idea for the computer game Patrice. Have you suggested it to Matrix?
*********************************

So why not add something like that : Experience of Crews. This seems trivial to add to the game, from a programming point of view.

This could also be used for the Army and the Navy, having Crews' Experience raise with combat experience, and modify the counter's factors (except movement & range).


Dont u think this would seriously unbalance the game?? - Imagine a barbarossa ...all the GE fighters & Tacs have either +1 or +0 to their factors ...while the USSR planes all have -1 ... - I like the rule though, but isnt it already kind of implied in the stats of the planes??

Also how would u define combat? is it A2A or would a successful "mission" qualify? ei. such as conducting an unopposed strategic bombardment, ground strike or how about combat air patrol?! Also u call it pilot experience would that imply that u can transfer a veteran pilot from one aircraft to another, if so and if by combat u mean "mission" I can suddenly see a key "training" role for all those crappy aircraft ...

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 3
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 12:03:58 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: christo

Normally I would be against this as not being a true reflection of the boardgame but given Harry's response it certainly warrants discussion.

Yes, that's why I asked. Moreover, this would be an option, and playing without that option you would be in a true reflection of the boardgame.

quote:

Planes would be a natural given the nature of (almost) single combat but how would you propose that this is translated to the army/ navy? On a battleship for example there is such a range of experience that it would not seem appropriate. The land forces though, could easily be -1 combat factor on the turn that they arrive on map to +1 after ?? 6 turns with white print / elite units immune.

I've written it all consistently for the Air Force, Navy and Army :

*************************************
There are 4 Crew Experience levels. The experience level changes during the production step. All units begin the game at the Normal Experience level :

For the Air Force :
Green : Planes are -1 to all factors except range (minimum 1) on the first turn on the map, until after the first combat (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Normal : Factors go back to normal the turn after their first involvement in a combat (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Ace : Factors are +1 on all factors except range after 5 more involvements in combats (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Crack : Factors are +2 on all factors except range (maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best) after 20 total involvements in combats (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Crew experience goes back 1 level after the plane goes back to the reserve pool, or the plane is aborted in combat. Example, an Ace crew would go back to Normal, a Normal to Green, a Crack to Ace, etc... A green would stay green.

For the Navy :
Green : Factors are -1 on all factors except range, movement & carrier class (minimum 1) on the first turn on the map, until after the shakedown cruise.
Normal : Factors back to normal the turn after the shakedown cruise. The shakedown cruise is the first naval movement that ends in a sea box section, where the ship returns to base at the return to base step. Movements from port to port would not count as the shakedown cruise. Movement at sea that do not stay at sea until the end of the turn would not count neither.
Ace : Factors are +1 on all factors except range, movement & carrier class after 5 combats in which the ship was involved.
Crack : Factors are +2 on all factors except range, movement & carrier class (maximum double initial factors) after 20 combats in which the ship was involved.
Crew experience goes back to Green status after the ship is bottomed. Crew experience goes back 1 level in case of damaged ship. Example, an Ace crew would go back to Normal, a Normal to Green, a Crack to Ace, etc...

For the Army :
MAR & PARA and White Print units would begin at the normal status.
Green : Combat Factor is -1 (minimum 1) on the first turn on the map, until after the meeting with the enemy.
Normal : Factors back to normal after the meeting with the enemy. The meeting with the enemy is the first time when the unit finishes the turn in an enemy ZoC.
Ace : Combat Factor is +1 after 5 combats in which the unit was involved.
Crack : Combat Factor is +2 (maximum double initial factors) (and maybe gain white print status) after 20 combats in which the unit was involved.
Crew experience goes back 1 level after the unit is shattered (or Breakthrough'ed). Example, an Ace crew would go back to Normal, a Normal to Green, a Crack to Ace, etc...
GBA are also be subject to this rule.
*************************************

Edit : Added the CAP & escort that produce no combat in the Air Force part, and the carrier class in the navy part.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 7/18/2007 12:18:11 PM >

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 4
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 12:08:35 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
Dont u think this would seriously unbalance the game?? - Imagine a barbarossa ...all the GE fighters & Tacs have either +1 or +0 to their factors ...while the USSR planes all have -1 ... - I like the rule though, but isnt it already kind of implied in the stats of the planes??

Well, as I have written it, the Soviet Fighters would all be at Normal level of experience. The Germans could possibly have reached Ace status, but not more IMO.

quote:

Also how would u define combat? is it A2A or would a successful "mission" qualify? ei. such as conducting an unopposed strategic bombardment, ground strike or how about combat air patrol?!

As I have written it would be : An air to air combat or air mission other than rebase.
I think that CAP that does not end up in the previous would not count, as well as an escort of a mission that is not intercepted.

quote:

Also u call it pilot experience would that imply that u can transfer a veteran pilot from one aircraft to another, if so and if by combat u mean "mission" I can suddenly see a key "training" role for all those crappy aircraft ...

I have written it so that when the plane goes back to the reserve pool then the level of experience decrease by one level.
Also, when the unit suffer battle losses (an abort is just that), the level of experience decrease by one.

(in reply to CBoehm)
Post #: 5
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 12:30:00 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		One can always reach chrome level 2 :

********************************
Experience acquired through training
Only combat can allow units to reach the Ace or Crack levels of experience.

Choice A
Units built normally enter the map at the Normal level of Crew Experience.
Units built in 1 turn less duration enter the map at the Green level of Crew Experience.

Choice B
Units built normally enter the map at the Green level of Crew Experience (except MAR & PARA).
Units can enter the map at the Normal level of Crew Experience if 1 extra turn of building time is spent.

********************************

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 6
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 12:49:30 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		I like the rules but would maybe tone them down a bit.

Remove the crack level. +2 on a few key units is maybe to powerful.

A loss only pulls a unit back from Ace to Normal a Normal still stays at normal and is not reduced to green, otherwise a side that starts losing would be losing even quicker.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 7
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 1:22:36 PM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		There would be questions of
  • how to allocate your Crack crews to your best fighters then reallocate them when better aircraft become available.
  • does your opponent know they are fighting Crack crews before allocating casualties ("so sorry Herr Bader... I pick for you to die")


_____________________________

/Greyshaft

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 8
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 1:30:56 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

There would be questions of
  • how to allocate your Crack crews to your best fighters then reallocate them when better aircraft become available.

In what I've written, this is taken care of. When the aircraft goes to the Reserve pool, the crew loose 1 level.

quote:

  • does your opponent know they are fighting Crack crews before allocating casualties ("so sorry Herr Bader... I pick for you to die")


A golden star would appear on Ace units (or their factor would be gold colored), and 2 stars on crack units (or their factor could be otherwise colored). Green units would have some sort of symbol too.
Casualties are allocated normaly, as they already are in the combat rules.

(in reply to Greyshaft)
Post #: 9
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 1:33:26 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I like the rules but would maybe tone them down a bit.

Remove the crack level. +2 on a few key units is maybe to powerful.

Why not.

quote:

A loss only pulls a unit back from Ace to Normal a Normal still stays at normal and is not reduced to green, otherwise a side that starts losing would be losing even quicker.

Yes, this is good too. As I wrote that an Abort or a return to the Reserve Pool would make the unit loose 1 level, and aborts are somehow frequents. But I would keep it for damaged naval units and shattered land units, loosing 1 level whatever.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 10
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 2:18:08 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		What is the definition of combat an overrun, an invasion against a notional, an attack of a partisan?

To avoid cheesy moves like invading empty out of supply island hexes I think a combat needs to have +20 or less on the 2d10 table or less than 10-1 odds on 1D10.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 11
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 3:16:42 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

What is the definition of combat an overrun, an invasion against a notional, an attack of a partisan?

I would say any combat against an enemy that has more than 0 combat factors count. I'd say that Overruns on an enemy that has more than 0 combat factors count too.

quote:

To avoid cheesy moves like invading empty out of supply island hexes I think a combat needs to have +20 or less on the 2d10 table or less than 10-1 odds on 1D10.

I'd just say that the enemy needs to have more than 0 combat factors for the combat to count.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 12
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 3:40:06 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		I like your ideas about gaining experience levels. IMO everything to tone down abstraction of the corps sized land and air units a little bit, without being a clickfeast, is a good thing. This will give a personal character to units.

Any chance to connect pilot training with oil spending? Does pilot production in WIF cost Oil?

Fine-tuning of the experience level would have to be part of play-testing.

Question is: How much work is it to program unit experience? Will Steve do it? Is there enough room for graphical representation, like experience stars, on the unit counters?

Regards


P.S.: Historically, the interdependency of training, ressources, and strategy was important:
- As we all know, lack of oil hampered Luftwaffe and Japanese airforces' quality.
- Germanys reluctance to withdraw from the Baltic states in 1944, partly, was motivated by the wish to secure the Baltic Sea as a training ground for U-boats.

< Message edited by wosung -- 7/18/2007 3:46:46 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 13
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 3:59:05 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Combat aginst enemy with more than 0 in combat factors would work, prevents the invasion against 0 notinals.

I think you would have to play using oil with this rule otherwise you would make sure to use your aircraft every turn to manage to get them to ace status, you might see that anyhow.
You would probably see more groundstrikes in the winter turns when you wouldn't attack anyhow to give your stukas some experience, but since you need to perform 5 missions before ace status I don't mind it that much as it'll be a year before a unit becomes an ace.

If during playtesting it is showned that to many units become aces, An alternative to just count the combats the unit has been in could be to count the time's the unit accomplished something, aborted/shot down and airplane, flipped an opponent, hit a factory, killed retreated or shattered an opponent.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 14
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 4:33:09 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Also, DIV sized units should not be affected by this rule, they are too small and their factors are too small too.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 15
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 4:35:04 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Question is: How much work is it to program unit experience? Will Steve do it? Is there enough room for graphical representation, like experience stars, on the unit counters?

I bet Steve would prefer not to add this to MWiF product1, even if it is demonstrated that it is not hard to integrate to the game, it reprensents more unwelcomed work.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 16
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 4:35:39 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hello,

I was posting this to Harry Rowland a couple of days ago, discussing another matter (pilots), but drifting from the discussion :

*********************************
Also, I'd love if the computer game allowed for Pilots to earn exerience.
- Pilots begin as green pilots (-1 to all factors except range - minimum 1).
- After their first (or second) involvement in a combat they become normal pilots.
- After 5 more involvements in combats they become aces (+1 to all factors except range).
- After 20 total involvements in combats, they become cracks (+2 to all factors except range - maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best).
*********************************

And he answered :
*********************************
Sounds an excellent idea for the computer game Patrice. Have you suggested it to Matrix?
*********************************

So why not add something like that : Experience of Crews. This seems trivial to add to the game, from a programming point of view.

This could also be used for the Army and the Navy, having Crews' Experience raise with combat experience, and modify the counter's factors (except movement & range).



This idea:

(1) Is Unnecessary; if you wish to do this I suggest you try a more tactical and less strategic game such as “Campaigns for North Africa” or “Richtoffens War”.
(2) Is Unrealistic; Need I remind you of the scale of the game? An aircraft unit represents 250 aircraft in 1939 gradually increasing to 500 aircraft by 1945.
(3) Is not part of the RaW WiFFE 7.0 It has been posted several times by Matrix developers “no new code not covered in the RaW”.
(4) It unbalances the game.


IMO this is along the same lines as “Special Forces”, giving advantages to land units with gas operated rifles, and PT boats. This is something that would affect a tactical game that has no place in a strategic game.

If this is allowed then things that need to be considered are:

(1) Pilot rotation.
(2) Change of aircraft.
(3) Change of opponent/theater.
(4) Type of enemy aircraft fought.
(5) Etc.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 17
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 4:41:16 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I think you would have to play using oil with this rule otherwise you would make sure to use your aircraft every turn to manage to get them to ace status, you might see that anyhow.
You would probably see more groundstrikes in the winter turns when you wouldn't attack anyhow to give your stukas some experience, but since you need to perform 5 missions before ace status I don't mind it that much as it'll be a year before a unit becomes an ace.

More than one mission can be made per turn by Stukas, who often are reorganized during the turn. Also, each mission flown is a risk of air to air combat and Anti Air fire, and losses suffered (a simple Abort) mean a loss of experience of the air unit. IMO it would be rare to have Air units of ace level units and maybe exceptionnal to have crack Air units.
It is sure that this rule should be used along with the oil rule, I had this in mind as the oil rule is part of my group's bag of rules, and playing without the oil rule sure encourage to more missions flown.

quote:

If during playtesting it is showned that to many units become aces, An alternative to just count the combats the unit has been in could be to count the time's the unit accomplished something, aborted/shot down and airplane, flipped an opponent, hit a factory, killed retreated or shattered an opponent.

Completely right.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 18
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 5:33:04 PM   
Toed

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		If this is implemented I hope it is as an optional rule.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 19
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 5:39:42 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Also, DIV sized units should not be affected by this rule, they are too small and their factors are too small too.


A shame I would have thought that the 4-2 Art would be one of the fastest units to advance to Ace status.... During the first year it participates in almost every single combat on the german side, when I play

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 20
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 5:56:42 PM   
dale1066


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/23/2007
Status: offline 		To simplifythe experience/better training for pilots or naval units why not just say spend an extra build point on the unit leave it in production to arrive a turn later. After all IMO thats more or less what mar and para units are. More highly trained (expensive in terms of cost/time to build) with special abilities.
IMO Given spare development time its one for the beta testers and it might make it as an optional rule.

(in reply to c92nichj)
Post #: 21
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 5:59:40 PM   
Arron69


Posts: 115
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		I for one like these rules, and the computer counting the battles of each unit makes this easier to imply.

But some ideas:
The names IMO should be unique for the top level, ie: Green, Normal, Crack for the low lvls of all units, and
Airforce: Ace
Navy: Commodore
Army: Elite
for the high lvls...

And the MTN is just as elite as PARA and MAR, so sould be included. The end exercise of a MTN recruit in germany, was to climb the alps and pick a flower that grows up high above the tree limit and put it in his hat, only then would he be accepted by the older troops.

Another thing is that the smaller a unit is, the more important the training and experience is, so divs should be included, take the commandos, they only took troop with combat experience, and trained them to perfection, and so did the american and english paratroopers.

Besides from that the rest sounds awesome, but should ofcourse be an option, and oil should be auto on if you choose it.

Andi.

_____________________________

The winner of a battle may not be the one who wins the War.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 22
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 7:53:37 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Sounds like an interesting discussion, although I agree with whomever said that it is quite unlikely that any feature of this kind is to appear in MWiF product 1.

I also disagree that this rule has no place in a strategic-scale wargame. However, I do think that it will need a good deal of playtesting, and will probably end up a good deal different than as initially posited.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Arron69)
Post #: 23
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 7:59:57 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Question is: How much work is it to program unit experience? Will Steve do it? Is there enough room for graphical representation, like experience stars, on the unit counters?

I bet Steve would prefer not to add this to MWiF product1, even if it is demonstrated that it is not hard to integrate to the game, it reprensents more unwelcomed work.

Yes.

Very experimental.

Is the experience level of air crews associated with the air unit or the pilots?

In my over the board play every unit on both sides in France 1940 and Russia 1941 is flipped by the end of the turn. That often indicates the turn is over too since no one is capable of doing anything more. Which means almost all of them have gained experience. My general philosophy when playing cardboard war games is that every unit on the map has to "earn his keep" by doing something useful each turn. So, I would expect experience levels to follow very closely with the how long the unit has been on the map. Units that arrive later in the game or belong to neutral major powers (e.g., all the US units) would all be green.

However, this new rule would have the good effect of making units placed on garrison duty less combat ready. Reading the land unit writeups gives a lot of support for that being historically accurate - rather than just a game gimmick.

Some WIFFE mountain units are non-elite (even German ones).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 24
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/18/2007 10:44:22 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

40% chance for FAIR weather

The Sea box shore bombardment modifier: NONE, 2, 1, 0, 0

FAIR - 9 combat points + 9 shore bombardment factors + 6 ground support points = 24 combat points vs.

3-point notional unit (within a corps or armies ZoC) odds are 7 to 1 (Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 5-4 Siberian corps odds are 3 to 1 (50% chance Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 6-4 Siberian corps odds are 3 to 1 (50% chance Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 6-4 Siberian corps + 5-4 Siberian corps odds are 3 to 2 (30% chance Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 6-4 Siberian corps + 6-4 Siberian corps odds are 3 to 2 (30% chance Invasion succeeds)


Using this example the Siberians would be Green -1 and Invading Japanese MAR units have their normal combat factors.

quote:

3-point notional unit (within a corps or armies ZoC) odds are 7 to 1 (Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 5-4 Siberian corps -1 odds are 4 to 1 (80% chance Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 6-4 Siberian corps -1 odds are 4 to 1 (80% chance Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 6-4 Siberian corps + 5-4 Siberian corps -2 odds are 2 to 1 (50% chance Invasion succeeds)
2-point notional unit + 6-4 Siberian corps + 6-4 Siberian corps -2 odds are 2 to 1 (50% chance Invasion succeeds)




< Message edited by Mziln -- 7/18/2007 10:47:07 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 25
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/19/2007 2:50:29 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		GDW's "A House Divided" is great fun to play, in small part because of the non-stop banter to be had using the 'crack' units.

But given WiF's abstract land units and sizes I wouldn't use such a rule for land units. The USSR already has such a system - the Guards Banner Armies - and I thought it was under consideration to expand that idea to a few other countries. Combat is highly attritional and this is not really represented in WiF. When a land unit is removed from the map, it is in most cases in reality still on the map and the casualties were probably distributed amongst all units in the battle. But some way to represent those casualties has to appear so a unit is removed from the map. Even when such a unit was withdrawn in real-life, it would still have a core of combat veterans, though the Germans were dumb enough to create brand new land units with no combat experience (Manstein's comments on the Luftwaffe Field Divisions, frex), but that is simulated by low combat factors of some of the new German units. SPI used to have unit experience rules in some of their games, and these made sense for completely 'green' regimental level units, but it just doesn't feel right at the corps/army level.

For air units I probably wouldn't use it either. Any air unit would always have a mix of veterans and new pilots. Some combat veterans get pulled from units to help become instructors or to become the nucleus of new units, to avoid the 100% rookie unit problem. Again given attrition and the unit scales this doesn't feel right to me for WiF. I've never wanted to see WiF get overly 'tacticalized' and a lot of proposed options do just that.

One exception to my thoughts there is I would like to see a limited number of "Pre-War Pilot" markers as I think the combat pilots trained in the 30s with hundreds of hours of flying time probably had an advantage over pilots trained more hastily during war conditions. Japan's carrier pilots are frequently mentioned in this regard of course but I suspect that might hold true for other countries too?

(in reply to Mziln)
Post #: 26
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/19/2007 6:18:37 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

GDW's "A House Divided" is great fun to play, in small part because of the non-stop banter to be had using the 'crack' units.

But given WiF's abstract land units and sizes I wouldn't use such a rule for land units. The USSR already has such a system - the Guards Banner Armies - and I thought it was under consideration to expand that idea to a few other countries. Combat is highly attritional and this is not really represented in WiF. When a land unit is removed from the map, it is in most cases in reality still on the map and the casualties were probably distributed amongst all units in the battle. But some way to represent those casualties has to appear so a unit is removed from the map. Even when such a unit was withdrawn in real-life, it would still have a core of combat veterans, though the Germans were dumb enough to create brand new land units with no combat experience (Manstein's comments on the Luftwaffe Field Divisions, frex), but that is simulated by low combat factors of some of the new German units. SPI used to have unit experience rules in some of their games, and these made sense for completely 'green' regimental level units, but it just doesn't feel right at the corps/army level.

For air units I probably wouldn't use it either. Any air unit would always have a mix of veterans and new pilots. Some combat veterans get pulled from units to help become instructors or to become the nucleus of new units, to avoid the 100% rookie unit problem. Again given attrition and the unit scales this doesn't feel right to me for WiF. I've never wanted to see WiF get overly 'tacticalized' and a lot of proposed options do just that.

One exception to my thoughts there is I would like to see a limited number of "Pre-War Pilot" markers as I think the combat pilots trained in the 30s with hundreds of hours of flying time probably had an advantage over pilots trained more hastily during war conditions. Japan's carrier pilots are frequently mentioned in this regard of course but I suspect that might hold true for other countries too?

I agree with much of this, especially the tendency for many people to not comprehend the scale of the units in WiF. I've thought about the pre-war pilot experience issue too but I'd add that it works both ways. Pre-war tactics such as the RAF "vic" formation were often shown to be impracticable in combat. The much more effective "finger four" used by the Luftwaffe had been developed by them from experience in Spain. So you could argue that training with the benefit of the lessons learned is more valuable than pre-war training in this respect. Those hundreds of lazy, pre-war hours of training per pilot would have been handy for developing airmanship though.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 27
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/19/2007 7:15:26 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		great point on theoretical tactics vs. the realities of combat, thanks.


(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 28
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/19/2007 7:21:13 AM   
christo

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 11/24/2005
From: adelaide, australia
Status: offline 		Patrice

I haven't seen this posted on the wiflist discussion site. Do you think they may have anything to offer?

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 29
RE: Crew's Experience - 7/19/2007 5:29:36 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Question is: How much work is it to program unit experience? Will Steve do it? Is there enough room for graphical representation, like experience stars, on the unit counters?

I bet Steve would prefer not to add this to MWiF product1, even if it is demonstrated that it is not hard to integrate to the game, it reprensents more unwelcomed work.

Yes.

Very experimental.

Is the experience level of air crews associated with the air unit or the pilots?

In my over the board play every unit on both sides in France 1940 and Russia 1941 is flipped by the end of the turn. That often indicates the turn is over too since no one is capable of doing anything more. Which means almost all of them have gained experience. My general philosophy when playing cardboard war games is that every unit on the map has to "earn his keep" by doing something useful each turn. So, I would expect experience levels to follow very closely with the how long the unit has been on the map. Units that arrive later in the game or belong to neutral major powers (e.g., all the US units) would all be green.

However, this new rule would have the good effect of making units placed on garrison duty less combat ready. Reading the land unit writeups gives a lot of support for that being historically accurate - rather than just a game gimmick.

Some WIFFE mountain units are non-elite (even German ones).



So this is going to be a RULE not an OPTION?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 30
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