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The interface - 7/24/2007 5:08:23 PM

Berkut

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I know this is a bit of a labor of love kind of release from a single guy, but...

Well, the interface sucks. The resolution is fixed. Scrolling is poorly implemented. Selection and movement of units? You have to click on a stack, which then opens a little dialogue box, then you ahve to select whether you want to move one unit or the stack out of the dialogue selection, then it shows little arrows and you get to click where you want to go, and then it tries to move some units there.

What happened to drag and drop?

Left click selects, right click opens options? Double click selects the stack? What about drag selection of units?

Scroll bars?

Real windows?

These are all pretty much standard UI elements from, oh, 15 years ago?

I realize we are in a niche hobby, with niche development. But one of the reason we are going to remain a niche hobby is that people aren't ever going to see if there is a good game underneath the opaque interfaces that are non-intuitive, and difficult to use. Sure, those of us who love this stuff will struggle through the interface to get at the game underneath, but not everyone.

You start the game with two strikes against for anyone who is ambivalent about these things.

Post #: 1

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:06:42 PM

SiTheSly

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Totally agree - also the manual is useless.

There is no tutorial I've started two games and have not moved one unit yet as I cannot find any reference on how to do it.

I'll put it away now and this Frank guy can be bothered to write a simple introductory manual this week then I'll give it another go. If not I'll ask for a refund to my Visa card and inform Visa that I will not be paying for something which is unusable.

I don't care if its one guy he could write a manual in a few days and Matrix are equally at fault for allowing this to be published and sold when it is unplayable. $40.00 for this is a joke.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 2

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:21:08 PM

7th Somersets

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Try clicking on the unit that you want to move and then clicking on the hex next to it. If you own the hexagon you will be able to move into it.

If you do not own the hexagon you will need to activate an adjacent HQ unit in the 'activation' phase. Then simply click on the unit you want to move and then onto the hex you want to attack.

It is that simple...

(in reply to SiTheSly)

Post #: 3

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:29:44 PM

PJL1973

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Yes, the manual is less than helpful at times, would have been better if it had 10-15 extra pages to explain everything in more detail. A FAQ is sorely needed for this game ASAP. The cluttered interface doesn't help either.

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Post #: 4

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:37:12 PM

SiTheSly

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When you know how to do something it usually is quite simple. It should have been in the manual.

The game needs a step by step example of one turn on one front with instructions.

Its not complicated...

(in reply to 7th Somersets)

Post #: 5

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:39:48 PM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly

When you know how to do something it usually is quite simple. It should have been in the manual.

The game needs a step by step example of one turn on one front with instructions.

Its not complicated...

This isn't really a complaint about the interface, but rather the manual.

Although a good interface can make some things intuitive, there is nothing wrong with things not necessarily be intuitive if the game is tring to do something a little different (like the activation mechanic, which I think is excellent). For that, you need a decent manual.

The difference is that a poor manual is easy to fix. Crappy interface is very, very hard to fix.

This has been a problem in a LOT of Matrix games, some of their very best games in fact. WitP, FoF, this, just to name a few.

(in reply to SiTheSly)

Post #: 6

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:40:08 PM

JD Walter

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Gentlemen,

I agree that the interface is certainly cumbersome, but I would not be so quick to dismiss "Guns of August", or so harsh.

Frank Hunter is well-known in the industry for the careful coding of his games (very few bugs, and those that do arise are patched quickly) and the excellent personal support he gives the community. He is one of the few designers who supports his products long after their release.

Frank also has a good sense for play-balance. Like Gary Grigsby, his games are deep and can reveal new strategies to try after repeated playings.

In years past, in the early days of PC gaming, I too was initially displeased with "The Road from Sumter to Appomattox" (Adanac), but after giving it a 2nd chance, found it to be one of the best strategic-level ACW games on the computer for its time. I believe the same will hold true for GoA.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 7

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:44:48 PM

Berkut

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Def, what bothers me is that what you say may very well be true. In fact, it almost certainly IS true.

But so many people will never know because they will look at the game, say "This is unplayable" and never dig deeply enough to find out what is there. And all because the interface does not operate under what has become completely standard expectations of how a windows system works.

It is like saying there is this incredible desert chef at the local greasy spoon diner. There might be, and some people may really enjoy him - but a lot of people are never going to find out because they walked in the door, saw a roach scurry across the floor, and turned around and walked back out.

There is good interface design, brillaint interface design, and poor interface design. This is poor interface design, and actually makes the game harder to play. The interface should reveal the brilliance of the design, not hide it.

And you know what the response is from friends of mine who wargame when I complained about this?

"Haha Jeff, you keep buying that crap Matrix is shoveling out because you think the next game won't suck like the rest. There is optimism, and then there is being a sucker. You are a sucker!"

I don't think that is true, but I am kind of tired of the argument. I cannot get my primary PBEM opponent to even try the new FoF - he got tired of waiting for the patch, and doesn't want to have to re-learn that games PITA interface now that they have finally fixed some serious bugs months and months after release. And this is after we spent hours and horus playing it and figuring it out before.

This is going beyond GoA at this point, but the trend is there.

< Message edited by Berkut -- 7/24/2007 6:48:31 PM >

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 8

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 6:46:50 PM

SiTheSly

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Berkut,

I apoligise for hijacking your thread and agreed with you but got carried away with my frustration at the poor manual. I'll stop replying to this thread now since I'm sure the manual/tutorial issue will be discussed in another thread. As stated it is not a complicated issue to resolve and I'm sure it will be. I must admit I regret being so hasty now.

(in reply to JD Walter)

Post #: 9

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 7:12:05 PM

JD Walter

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Hi Berkut,

True, my friend, very true...

Like ASL's ruleset, there is a certain "learning-curve" in just navigating the interfaces to Frank's games. Having previously played one of his earlier Adanac designs and "Campaigns on the Danube 1805 & 1809" (Matrix), I was prepared for such beforehand.

GoA was in production for almost a decade, and I did not expect it to be "state of the art" in many regards. But I am finding a great deal of depth in its play, much like GMT's "Paths of Glory" or Gary Grigsby's designs.

GoA certainly has an interesting subtlety in its opening moves, which I am only now seeing after repeated starts; I am confident I will find other aspects to it which reward careful thought and comparative analysis. Hopefully, like Grigsby's "War in the Pacific", this element will shine through for its purchasers.

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 7/24/2007 7:15:05 PM >

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 10

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 7:17:31 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut
I don't think that is true, but I am kind of tired of the argument. I cannot get my primary PBEM opponent to even try the new FoF - he got tired of waiting for the patch, and doesn't want to have to re-learn that games PITA interface now that they have finally fixed some serious bugs months and months after release. And this is after we spent hours and horus playing it and figuring it out before.

Wow, I just don't find FOF's interface hard at all. It takes some learning, but I can't really envision an easier way to handle the fact that it lets you fully manage the contents and commanders of each Army, Corps and Division. The rest of the interface has also worked fine from Day 1 (granted it has also been improving with each update) and is a lot more streamlined than COG's.

I notice when establishing this trend you only used those two data points though. While I respect that you personally may not like those interfaces, what about our other games? Have you tried Carriers at War? Commander Europe At War? UFO: Extraterrestrial? A World Divided? I'm leaving out the re-releases of classics since the goal there was not to redesign the interface everyone already knew but to make sure the game worked on modern systems.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 11

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 7:41:35 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

"This is unplayable"

What utter nonsense.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 12

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 7:49:36 PM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut
I don't think that is true, but I am kind of tired of the argument. I cannot get my primary PBEM opponent to even try the new FoF - he got tired of waiting for the patch, and doesn't want to have to re-learn that games PITA interface now that they have finally fixed some serious bugs months and months after release. And this is after we spent hours and horus playing it and figuring it out before.

Wow, I just don't find FOF's interface hard at all. It takes some learning, but I can't really envision an easier way to handle the fact that it lets you fully manage the contents and commanders of each Army, Corps and Division. The rest of the interface has also worked fine from Day 1 (granted it has also been improving with each update) and is a lot more streamlined than COG's.

I notice when establishing this trend you only used those two data points though. While I respect that you personally may not like those interfaces, what about our other games? Have you tried Carriers at War? Commander Europe At War? UFO: Extraterrestrial? A World Divided? I'm leaving out the re-releases of classics since the goal there was not to redesign the interface everyone already knew but to make sure the game worked on modern systems.

Regards,

- Erik

FoFs interface isn't hard at all...once you figure it out. But it is a PITA until that time. And that is true of ALL interfaces - none of them are hard once you figure them out.

And it had a lot of actual problem for a while, with armies moving when you didn't want them to, remember to right click to deselect, how do I move units a long way, why didn't they go where I wanted, how did THAT corps end up traipsing through enemy territory, the window size for the army displays not scaling, etc., etc. I think you find it easy now because is is second nature to you. And it became second nature to me as well, after a while. But then me and my opponent put the game down for 6 months while it was patched, and by the time we came back...it wasn't second nature anymore.

Whether this could be better? Oh, I am pretty sure it could be. I kind of doubt that it was the best that it could possibly be, but that is because of what I am talking about - there is a lack of focus on interface design, and an acceptance of poor design by publishers. In the case of FoF, if the game used windows components, it would be much improved. I could certainly imagine a vastly improved interface for managing containers and their contents, for example. Whether that effort in design is worth it, is another question of course.

And I mentioned several, of the ones I have played. War in the Pacific is a great example. A stunning game, incredibly deep, amazing detail. And (*&(*%*&# frustrating as hell to get to do what you want it to do. You spend so much time trying to figure out how to make the game do what you want, that you don't spend enought time figuring out what the options are - you end up fighting the interface, rather than playing the game. Hey, why didn't that convoy sail? What, I overloaded it? How? Why didn't it tell me that while I was loading it? ETc., etc.

But no, I don't purchase every single wargame released, I buy those that look interesting to me, and have potential for player vs. player wargaming. And I think the lack of attention to the basics of decent design, the stuff you can get from a 10 year old book on effective and basic interface design, is really hurting this genre.

And before someone says it, I am NOT talking about purty graphics! That is another subject altogether.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 13

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:05:49 PM

Copper

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not gonna lie.... I havent been able to delve into the game like I had hoped because the interface is so off putting. One day I'll get there, but for now it seems so daunting a task.

It's not that the games complicated, it's just the interface is so unhelpful that playing the game goes from being fun... to just down right work, at least initially.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 14

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:16:47 PM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

"This is unplayable"

What utter nonsense.

Ray (alias Lava)

Try quoting in context.

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 15

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:19:53 PM

TheHellPatrol

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Thank God i waited as the LAST thing i want is another PITA interface. I am not too excited about WW1 and it sounds like it would be a major headache to play like FOF's interface was to me personally. I cannot fight a game to play it anymore

...life is too short. Everybody is different and i am merely expressing my experience...$35 in my pocket

.

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to Copper)

Post #: 16

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:31:50 PM

coreymas

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Can you enlighten me with the meaning of a PITA interface.

Cause all that is coming up in my mind is a PITIFUL interface.....

Corey

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Post #: 17

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:34:22 PM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coreymas

Can you enlighten me with the meaning of a PITA interface.

Cause all that is coming up in my mind is a PITIFUL interface.....

Corey

PITA - Pain in the A$$

< Message edited by Berkut -- 7/24/2007 8:35:33 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:40:43 PM

coreymas

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Got it

PITIFUL - Pretty Intuitive Though Infintessimally F***ed Up Loser of an interface?

Please dont mistake this for any negative comment about the game. I could not dare to comment about a game that i do not own.

Corey

< Message edited by coreymas -- 7/24/2007 9:23:10 PM >

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 19

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 8:42:37 PM

TheHellPatrol

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...FUBAR...is another good one

.

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Post #: 20

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:13:44 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

"This is unplayable"

What utter nonsense.

Ray (alias Lava)

Try quoting in context.

Okay...

I'll put it in context.

You're saying "I PREFER this and because that is what YOU WANT you proclaim ... others will think the game is unplayable. Kinda like the chat about having only one resolution being a "game killer."

Utter, unabashed nonsense.

All I can say to folks is, yes, the interface may not be quite what you expect, but then again Frank Hunter is not Relic or EA... he is an independent developer. He also has a different way of doing things and his command concept is quite innovative and worthy of playing. His games attempt to capture the problems of command. So if you just want to push around counters...

Now this game does not take a rocket scientist to learn how to play. I got a stab at it in the Alpha version without either a manual or tutorial and picked it up in no time.

Now I know lots of people are used to being taken by the hand and walked through the process step by step. But in the end, even the best tutorials leave stuff out. Any gamer knows you have to play a couple games just to press buttons and "see what happens."

This game is no different.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 21

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:32:08 PM

Berkut

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See, that wasn't so hard was it?

And if you think I am wrong that people will find the game unpayable due to the interface, well, you could try making an argument rather than a proclamation that it is nonsense, of the unabashed or abashed variety.

Now, I think I made a pretty calm and deliberate argument to support my concern. It was not the argument you are claiming I am making, and not at all based on "WHAT I PREFER". You should try undertanding what the quotation mark means, by the way.

Discourse is pointless, however, if the intent of the participants is to only engage the argument as THEY define it for the other person, rather than what that other person is actually saying.

I think you might be right about his command concept and capturing the problems of command. But that has nothing to do with the interface. Rather the game obscures those decisions behind a clunky and difficult to work with interface. I am glad you find the game worth the trouble of the interface, I hope to come to the same conclusion.

But I have no doubt that many will not.

I am happy to do you the courtesy of responding to your points as they are made, rather than sweeping and grandious statements about your points being "utter, unabashed nonsense". If you cannot do the same, then we really have nothing to discuss. Why even respond to someone who is posting "utter, unabashed nonsense"? Sirely everyone else can see that as well as you, if in fact it is an accurate assessment, and the poster can be safely ignored.

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 22

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:37:12 PM

Erik Rutins

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The game is far from unplayable, Berkut. Certainly, the interface could be improved, but the interface is far from the worst I've seen and also seems fairly consistent with Frank's past games so I'm not sure what folks who've played other Frank Hunter designs were expecting.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 23

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:38:36 PM

Berkut

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Erik, you and Ray will have to find someone else to argue with if you want to argue whether or not the game is unplayable - I never made that claim, so feel no need to defend it.

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Post #: 24

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:42:13 PM

FrankHunter

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On the subject of my interfaces, I would agree they aren't that cute. Its what I'm used to so that's how I tend to do it. I'm also not interested in programming interfaces, I write wargames because its the command and other under the hood stuff I'm interested in so that's where I spend my time. I can see how that would be frustrating though if a player's interests don't coincide with my own.

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Post #: 25

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:47:42 PM

Berkut

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I cannot speak for anyone else Mr. Hunter, by my beef with your interface has nothing to do with its cuteness, but simply it's utility.

And I understand your lack of interst in programming the interface - I doubt anyone gets into this because they love programming an elegant interface.

So, my frustration is not that my interest does not coincide with yours at all - I'll bet our interests actually coincide nicely. *I* wouldn't want to be in charge of interface development if I decided to go into wargame programming either.

My frustration is that your interface is dificult to use, and makes the game less enjoyable.

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Post #: 26

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 9:57:39 PM

Aurelian

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While it would be nice if the interface is up to date, I don't think it's really necessary. After a couple of test games, it becomes second nature. To me anyway. But having played games like Second Front, or the old SSI Civil War games, or Pac War, or RFSTA, I'm used to it.

Now if it was real time like Paradox's games, it would be a different story.

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Post #: 27

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 10:03:00 PM

FrankHunter

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I am sorry about that Berkut, I really am. I appreciate your point. Too often I think I develop tunnel vision and ignore things I probably shouldn't. Such as screen resolution. Just because I use 1024x768 on my 19" should not mean I should assume everyone else does for example. And its the same with the interface, just because I'm used to a certain way of doing things I shouldn't assume that would be the easiest way of doing things for others. I certainly do apologize for not doing better in that area.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 28

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 10:15:21 PM

carnifex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

On the subject of my interfaces, I would agree they aren't that cute. Its what I'm used to so that's how I tend to do it. I'm also not interested in programming interfaces, I write wargames because its the command and other under the hood stuff I'm interested in so that's where I spend my time. I can see how that would be frustrating though if a player's interests don't coincide with my own.

Thanks for the head's-up. Interface design and ease of use are primary factors in determining what I will purchase. Take the two Civil War games Matrix has out at the moment. Both pretty good and seem balanced and accurate and flavorful. But one has a much better interface and that's the one I bought.

I don't know how many games I recommended my friends avoid simply because it takes too many mouse clicks to do a simple action.

(in reply to FrankHunter)

Post #: 29

RE: The interface - 7/24/2007 10:16:53 PM

Berkut

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Thanks for the considered response, I do apprecate it. I also realize being a critic is easy, and the greatest critic in the world is still a chump compared to anyone he is criticizing.

I don't really know what the solution is though - Matrix is doing about the best job that is being done in this area. There are some games that have some rpetty obvious dedication to interface (for better or worse, sometimes creative interface design is worse than half hearted interface design), but it seems like most of the game development is being done by people like you - essentially a labor of love type thing.

Someone earlier mentioned TOAW and Grigsbys designs. That is kind of ironic considering how much TOAW was panned when it came out for its interface...

(in reply to FrankHunter)

Post #: 30